Script Discussion S05E04

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
These are Dwarves that don’t know Aredhel, right? If they do know her it might be a bit harder to justify why they can’t speak to her directly.
It will be better for the season arc if they do know her. But either way, it's not feasible that they assume she can't speak Sindarin.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I apologize that this is much delayed! But now, at long last, I can share with you the first draft of the Episode 4 script for Season 5.


If any of you have the opportunity to read it, I would welcome feedback!

In particular, I would most like to know:
  • Any scenes that really wow and amaze and should definitely be kept in any revisions!
  • OR any scenes that fall flat or are confusing/pointless and in desperate need of trimming or revision
  • Any parts that drag on too long or disappoint you
  • Anything missing that you expected to be present
  • Anything that sounds out of place for Silm Film or Middle-earth and you would prefer be removed/changed.
  • Any story elements that you expected to come back/continue, but were just...dropped. Anything feel open-ended or dangling?
Certainly, if you see any typos or formatting issues, I'd appreciate you pointing that out as well, but with a first draft, it is expected that there will be more substantial edits happening before the 'tidying up' process, so that is not crucial at this time. For instance, I will take care of the orphan control issue prior to making the pdf of the second draft.

The easiest way to suggest edits is to do so directly on the document. If you would prefer to leave general comments here in this thread, that works, too.

I am really excited to share this with all of you, but I acknowledge that it is a draft work only, and I am open to making whatever edits are needed to improve it - big or small. For instance, we can certainly discuss the names of any characters that weren't invented by Tolkien. Or talk about what types of birds would be present in Beleriand. But I am also willing to re-write entire action sequences if need be.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I haven't gotten very far, but I noticed that the spear isn't present at the beginning when Haldad brings down the vampire. I presume that you realized that a bow would be a much better weapon for the circumstance, which makes sense. If we wanted to keep the spear in the scene, he could have Haleth grab it and act as his spear-bearer in this circumstance. It would allow us to show where it is kept, also.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Well it is heavy of dialogue... that is not necessarily a bad thing in my eyes.

What confused me somewhat was the time jump, you know the flashback scene... i mean we already switch between main narrative and frame so the flashback felt odd to me.

Otherwise i mostly liked it... some nitpicking here and there, not feeling too smooth with some of the halethrin names... but that is all.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I was afraid the flashbacks might get confusing. If it would help, I can insert more age references or make it always summer in the flashback scenes or something.

As for the names, please suggest alternatives - I can change them! Basically, I needed names for Haleth's friend, and the friend's father. Other names are completely optional and can be deleted entirely.

So Haleth's friend survives and Haleth chases Sauron off?
Haleth's friend survives this episode, yes. Haleth does seem to chase Sauron off, but more realistically he lost interest in this game for his own reasons.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I haven't gotten very far, but I noticed that the spear isn't present at the beginning when Haldad brings down the vampire. I presume that you realized that a bow would be a much better weapon for the circumstance, which makes sense. If we wanted to keep the spear in the scene, he could have Haleth grab it and act as his spear-bearer in this circumstance. It would allow us to show where it is kept, also.
Oops, I completely forgot about the spear while writing that scene! Yes, certainly, I can add it back in there. Should Haldad be armed with the spear for his sortie as well? That would give the opportunity for broken spear imagery in lieu of mangled corpse visuals.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I will make a list of Pseudo-halethian names... if you like some you can use them, if you don't you can still stick to the ones you used, i like some of them... bril for example.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Male:

Agalos
Avruin
Beltur
Enach
Forir
Hunuin
Indar
Laranc
Melang
Olbor

Tarang i like!

Female:

Darnis
Ereth
Fardis
Galreth
Glimil
Henleth
Larnil
Mandis
Ruinis
Thoril

I guess ...you get the point
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Thank you! I will definitely name the Cook "Larnil" and give some thought to the rest of them. Do you have any particular suggestion for Sauron's fake name?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Haha no, but it would be fun to call him "Noruas" or "Noriam"... as a pun of the silly fake-orcnames Beren and Finrod used disguised as Orcs (Nereb and Dungalef)

When creating fake-tolkien names from tolklanguages of which we know little if any actual vocabulary i usually make a list of the names and words we have and simply rearange the syllables, using known endings and sometimes just add a syllable or an element ... silly but easy and mostly almost looks and sounds like an original.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Could work, though to me it sounds female... though Ori of course is a male norse name, so no real problem.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I have made the following updates:

Name changes
Cook --> Larnil
Arnbrith --> Tarang
Woman #1 --> Ereth
Woman #2 --> Mandis

Altered Scenes
Rewrote Scenes 7 (p. 25) & 11 (p.41) - where Aredhel and Eöl encounter the dwarves
I was frustrated with Aredhel's complete inability to communicate, and did not think that three languages at once was going to work on screen. So, after discussing it with Nick and Rhiannon, I shifted those scenes to allow a friendly interaction between Aredhel and the Dwarves, and a more subtle manipulation by Eöl. He still uses Khuzdul to manipulate the situation, and the audience will see more red flags than Aredhel does. But it is not as miserable as it was before.

More minor edits
Added the spear and the smoke into more scenes to show better build up to the finale. Trimmed some lines of dialogue that were clunky. Fleshed out the opening teaser a bit.


Any other requested changes to the first draft at this time?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
So, we've sent the current version up to the hosts for discussion on Thursday night. That means that we will likely get at least some notes for changes after that, and we can do another round of editing at that point.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Feedback from Session 5-24: Twitch video

Aspects of the Second Draft Script Corey Olsen approved:
Opening with the sortie in which Haldad and Haldar are killed.​
Conversations between Haleth and her father (opening scene, dance)​
Aredhel/Eöl scenes - correct balance of revealing Eöl's motives to the audience without alerting Aredhel to his deception; 'sufficiently subtle' red flags.​
It is...okay...that the dogs vanish during the siege.​
Contrast between the rough/hard life of the Haladin, with the lavish and entitled lifestyle of Caranthir.​

Aspects of the Second Draft Script Corey Olsen requested edits to:

Please stitch together the flashback and the siege timelines.​
Explain why Sauron's goal shifted at the end, and explain why the orcs targeted the Stockade in the final conversation between Boldog and Sauron​
Add a conversation after Haleth defies Sauron in which the Men discuss how they must prepare for a coming attack - constant vigilance! They have learned their lesson and are psychologically prepared for an attack. (After Boldog falls from wall)​
Make Bril Haldar's wife (character compression among the Haladin in general is not a bad idea)​
Caranthir needs to be more of his condescending jerk self during his conversation with Haleth, so it is abundantly clear why she turns him down.​
Suggestions:​
He dismisses the stockade as a poor attempt at defenses​
Makes a comment about how they are 'almost' like elves/ pat on the head​
He expresses a proprietary relationship of liegelord/vassal, and being patronizing - they are under his protection, but he doesn't need their help​
Caranthir's natural sneer/cockiness/boastfulness should be visible​
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Feedback from Session 5-24: Twitch video

Aspects of the Second Draft Script Corey Olsen approved:
Opening with the sortie in which Haldad and Haldar are killed.​
Conversations between Haleth and her father (opening scene, dance)​
Aredhel/Eöl scenes - correct balance of revealing Eöl's motives to the audience without alerting Aredhel to his deception; 'sufficiently subtle' red flags.​
It is...okay...that the dogs vanish during the siege.​
Contrast between the rough/hard life of the Haladin, with the lavish and entitled lifestyle of Caranthir.​

Aspects of the Second Draft Script Corey Olsen requested edits to:

Please stitch together the flashback and the siege timelines.​
Explain why Sauron's goal shifted at the end, and explain why the orcs targeted the Stockade in the final conversation between Boldog and Sauron​
Add a conversation after Haleth defies Sauron in which the Men discuss how they must prepare for a coming attack - constant vigilance! They have learned their lesson and are psychologically prepared for an attack. (After Boldog falls from wall)​
Make Bril Haldar's wife (character compression among the Haladin in general is not a bad idea)​
Caranthir needs to be more of his condescending jerk self during his conversation with Haleth, so it is abundantly clear why she turns him down.​
Suggestions:​
He dismisses the stockade as a poor attempt at defenses​
Makes a comment about how they are 'almost' like elves/ pat on the head​
He expresses a proprietary relationship of liegelord/vassal, and being patronizing - they are under his protection, but he doesn't need their help​
Caranthir's natural sneer/cockiness/boastfulness should be visible​
Why the orcs targeted the stockade... exactly that, why? Taking out a possible threat? Who gave the go-ahead?

With the comment about they're almost like elves, maybe along the lines of "Well okay, you're not completely useless"?
 
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