Script Discussion S05E13

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Actually, I'm listening back to all the old seasons, currently in season 2, around the session dealing with ep 3. At that point it was stated by Prof Olsen that one option (or maybe it was just stated as a given) was to only ever show the inside of the Halls of Mandos for the scene with Luthien there.
That's been our general policy. I think we did show Melkor in Mandos, but only very briefly.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, there has been a desire for a glimpse from time to time. Melkor imprisoned prior to his trial and Míriel after her death in Season 2 are the two times it has come up so far. But we certainly have not showed Mandos in Seasons 3-5.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok, I have opened a document where I will be writing E13. Please note that editing on E12 is still ongoing, so I may have to make changes here based on changes there. And do feel free to make any comments or suggestions on this document as I go.


I intend to reply to this post with links for context later.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok, I have opened a document where I will be writing E13. Please note that editing on E12 is still ongoing, so I may have to make changes here based on changes there. And do feel free to make any comments or suggestions on this document as I go.


I intend to reply to this post with links for context later.

Discussion of the Dagor Bragollach with Prof. Olsen:

 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok, I have opened a document where I will be writing E13. Please note that editing on E12 is still ongoing, so I may have to make changes here based on changes there. And do feel free to make any comments or suggestions on this document as I go.


I intend to reply to this post with links for context later.
Dagor Bragollach Maps

 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok, I have opened a document where I will be writing E13. Please note that editing on E12 is still ongoing, so I may have to make changes here based on changes there. And do feel free to make any comments or suggestions on this document as I go.


I intend to reply to this post with links for context later.
Script discussions for episodes 12-13
https://www.twitch.tv/signumu/v/1025430524?sr=a&t=0s
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Pretty cool, i like it a lot. Looking forward for the finished script but glad to see theres already something there for me to read.
Yeah, I've been doing an experiment with these episodes, seeing if writing them in documents people could see and comment on as I went would help the process.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
And, our outline, and progress update post: (Last Edited 10/16/21)


Teaser: Not Started
Confrontation between brothers

ACT 1: Written

Scene 1: Written
Fingolfin's army thrown into full retreat

Scene 2: Written
Finrod joins the battle. It goes poorly.

Scene 3: Written
Gate of Himring has fallen

Scene 4: Written
Glaurung attacks Keep Helevorn

ACT II: Written

Scene 5: Written
Fingolfin's army routed to Barad Eithel

Scene 6: Written
Barahir rescues Finrod

Scene 7: Written
Assault on Himring Broken

Scene 8: Written
Amras rescues Caranthir

ACT III: Incomplete

Scene 9: Written
Ring of Barahir given

Scene 10: Written
Settling in montage

Scene 11a: Written
Sauron breaks things down

Scene 11b: Written
Maedhros breaks things down

Scene 12: Written
Debate at Barad Eithel

ACT IV: Incomplete

Scene 13: Written
Fingolfin sets off for Angband

Scene 14: Written
Finrod and Andreth in Brethil

Scene 15: Written
The Duel

Scene 16: Not Started
Frame - Incanus and Abrazan escape

Tag: Incomplete
Final Montage
Gandalf and Abrazan arrive at Harlond
 
Last edited:

Rob Harding

Active Member
So the thing I am struggling with is primarily one of outlines, not of scripts. But I think it makes it somewhat harder when it comes to reading scripts as it's not laid out clearly within the outlines. It's the emotional character arcs. The outlines are very plot focused and about physical moments and events. It is very hard from those outlines to track the story of the episode. You can follow the events but not the dilemma, the rising conflict, overcoming that conflict and resolution. The heart of the story. Which is really what needs to lead. I know it exists as I've read the scripts. But sometimes it is hard to parse. Certainly would be easier if this was the focus of the outlines. As the action all feeds into that. It needs to be tied to that character arc. And I think it will help with editing of scripts and knowing what is vital and what isn't if we have the emotional beats to anchor things to. If action doesn't serve that core, we know it can be trimmed or go.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
So the thing I am struggling with is primarily one of outlines, not of scripts. But I think it makes it somewhat harder when it comes to reading scripts as it's not laid out clearly within the outlines. It's the emotional character arcs. The outlines are very plot focused and about physical moments and events. It is very hard from those outlines to track the story of the episode. You can follow the events but not the dilemma, the rising conflict, overcoming that conflict and resolution. The heart of the story. Which is really what needs to lead. I know it exists as I've read the scripts. But sometimes it is hard to parse. Certainly would be easier if this was the focus of the outlines. As the action all feeds into that. It needs to be tied to that character arc. And I think it will help with editing of scripts and knowing what is vital and what isn't if we have the emotional beats to anchor things to. If action doesn't serve that core, we know it can be trimmed or go.
It is indeed a feature of Tolkienian story-telling that the plot drives the action rather than the character arcs, and I can see why that might be difficult from a more modern literary lens.

The dilemma is the attack from Angband. The rising conflict is the battle. The resolution is the end of the battle and the death of Fingolfin.

What might be more helpful is a breakdown of the emotional arcs of the more than a dozen major characters featured here individually as these episodes are closer akin to something like Avengers: Infinity War than your typical season wrap-up.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
It is indeed a feature of Tolkienian story-telling that the plot drives the action rather than the character arcs, and I can see why that might be difficult from a more modern literary lens.

The dilemma is the attack from Angband. The rising conflict is the battle. The resolution is the end of the battle and the death of Fingolfin.

What might be more helpful is a breakdown of the emotional arcs of the more than a dozen major characters featured here individually as these episodes are closer akin to something like Avengers: Infinity War than your typical season wrap-up.
Equally we are trying to tell a cinematic tale and to be able to have that visual action work it’d help to know why it’s there. Agsin, not saying this isn’t happening but itd be easier at the editing stage if it’s clear at the plotting stage. Infinity War is such a great example, thank you for that. You want to have the Peter/Tony moment and the Thor entering moment have real weight cos the track has been laid. Stops the editing being just canon/grammar/length spotting snd can help it be story necessary. But then, I’m a plotter. Others like to write as they go. Though SilmFilm does facilitate a plotter mentality. I know it’s not something Corey and the team lead to. I think they focus more on story beats.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Equally we are trying to tell a cinematic tale and to be able to have that visual action work it’d help to know why it’s there. Agsin, not saying this isn’t happening but itd be easier at the editing stage if it’s clear at the plotting stage. Infinity War is such a great example, thank you for that. You want to have the Peter/Tony moment and the Thor entering moment have real weight cos the track has been laid. Stops the editing being just canon/grammar/length spotting snd can help it be story necessary. But then, I’m a plotter. Others like to write as they go. Though SilmFilm does facilitate a plotter mentality. I know it’s not something Corey and the team lead to. I think they focus more on story beats.
Right, our plotting stage for these episodes was definitely during the script discussions, which in this case was months ago.

I'll try to put something together as far as spelling out a bit better what the character arcs are.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
Right, our plotting stage for these episodes was definitely during the script discussions, which in this case was months ago.

I'll try to put something together as far as spelling out a bit better what the character arcs are.
oh totally, I just meant an idea for future reference
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I know, this is my ham-fisted attempt to draw you deeper into this process. ;)
Its certainly hard coming in late to the game so would like to be there at the start of a season. Tricky thing is, I’ve written a hypothetical series-bible for a multi-season Beren and Luthien series and written two episodes all as portfolio work. So I’ll have to shake loose some of my own internal cannon and reframe my brain. But honestly, the planning stage and character work is what I find most exciting so am really happy to get into the weeds and craft that within a team. Which I guess will be pretty vital when you pretty much have only two leads. There’s so much going on there in the Beren and Luthien take though, what with fatherhood and legacies and destinies and defining oneself. That story to me is such a boiling down of what makes the legendarium
 

Ilana Mushin

Active Member
I’ve started scribbling on the script draft - getting all teary in the process. Like Rob, I’m coming in late and I’m not confident at writing dialogue so I’ll leave that to the experts, and think about the emotions of the characters a bit more. Tolkien was very plot driven but man, he had a great intuition about human (elf?) psychology. Reading through this draft reminded me how complex this season has been to plot because with the coming of humans there are just so many different characters and dynamics to follow. For example, this episode is the first since early in the season that we have proper bad guys scenes, and we revisit where Marion/Sauron is on his journey. The presence of the Feanorians in this season has been very scattered so it is good to see the brothers coming together at Himring, but really they’ve had little to do this season compared with the other Noldor. And Doriath has been almost completely out of the action this season - but will of course play a pivotal role in the upcoming seasons. So it is a real juggle. I this episode going to be able to be screened in an hour? It seems like it could take longer, depending on how much we want to do action scenes (eg. Glaurung’s conquest of Helevorn). There are some ’quiet’ moments of dialogue that we will want to linger on - Finrod and Andreth (post death of Aegnor, this is going to be a very emotional scene), interactions between Fingolfin and Fingolfin, Galdor and Gundor (presenting the human perspective on all of this). Can we make this a longer episode since it is the season Finale?
 

Ilana Mushin

Active Member
If we have to, but we certainly hadn't planned on it. One of the reasons the battle starts in E12 is to avoid a two-hour finale.
I think episode 12 is well paced but there is a lot going on in ep13. I assume we want to give the duel with Morgoth its due. If we are weaving in bad guys POV, as well as Feanorian POV, Galdor & Gundor (which my autocorrect keeps trying to correct to ’Gondor’ lol) and having proper Barahir/Finrod, Andreth/Finrod and a decent fraught final scene between Fingolfin and Fingon, AND the frame wrapup then I think it will be tough to do in 1 hour.
 
Top