Script Discussion S05E13

Kathrin

Active Member
A little maybe not very helpful contribution on the battle, but a short while ago i was thinking a lot about the Bragollach bc i collaborated with a wonderful fanfic writer on a Finrod in the Bragollach fic/art, but discussing the general situation of the Bragollach, we also discussed Fingolfin's whole mental state, and especially the moment before he rides out. He basically has a perfect balcony view over the Anfauglith from barad eithel, and from what he knows, most or his entire family from the arafinwean side could just have been eliminated (A&A in dorthonion, finrod at the fen of serech), and of course hador. The way he afterwards rides over the anfauglith, disturbing the dust almost orome-like reminds me of the way he arrives in Beleriand first, trumpets blazing with the sunrise at his back in a challenge, but now reverse, riding into the dark in desperation and retaliation.

From what I see from the wip script, Fingolfin isn't as locked in as in the fic I of course (where he mostly was besieged, blocking the pass to hithlum, so the fic could focus on Finrod being cornered and toyed with in the fen by sauron) But I really liked this emotional breakdown Fingolfin now in my mind is having during the battle, and how his assault on Angband in this battle is now the complete opposite of his triumphant challenge after the first rising of the sun. I don't know if this might fit, but I think a lot of the choreography of the Fingolfin/Morgoth battle comes down to what mental state Fingolfin arrives at the gates in. Anyway, sorry if this is useless, coming in so late especially.

Also I imagine Grond being quite explosive and the battle maybe being very in the dark under the dark clouds of Thangorodrim? A bit like this (although my Morgoth is a bit bigger than you are planning yours):

melkor_fingolfin_komp.JPG
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
A little maybe not very helpful contribution on the battle, but a short while ago i was thinking a lot about the Bragollach bc i collaborated with a wonderful fanfic writer on a Finrod in the Bragollach fic/art, but discussing the general situation of the Bragollach, we also discussed Fingolfin's whole mental state, and especially the moment before he rides out. He basically has a perfect balcony view over the Anfauglith from barad eithel, and from what he knows, most or his entire family from the arafinwean side could just have been eliminated (A&A in dorthonion, finrod at the fen of serech), and of course hador. The way he afterwards rides over the anfauglith, disturbing the dust almost orome-like reminds me of the way he arrives in Beleriand first, trumpets blazing with the sunrise at his back in a challenge, but now reverse, riding into the dark in desperation and retaliation.

From what I see from the wip script, Fingolfin isn't as locked in as in the fic I of course (where he mostly was besieged, blocking the pass to hithlum, so the fic could focus on Finrod being cornered and toyed with in the fen by sauron) But I really liked this emotional breakdown Fingolfin now in my mind is having during the battle, and how his assault on Angband in this battle is now the complete opposite of his triumphant challenge after the first rising of the sun. I don't know if this might fit, but I think a lot of the choreography of the Fingolfin/Morgoth battle comes down to what mental state Fingolfin arrives at the gates in. Anyway, sorry if this is useless, coming in so late especially.

Also I imagine Grond being quite explosive and the battle maybe being very in the dark under the dark clouds of Thangorodrim? A bit like this (although my Morgoth is a bit bigger than you are planning yours):

View attachment 3936

Firstly, I love your depiction. Secondly, our hosts have very specific thoughts on the mindset of Fingolfin leading up to the duel. My own interpretation of the text is more or less what you're describing here, but the hosts have gone in a more hope-centric direction.
 

Ilana Mushin

Active Member
A little maybe not very helpful contribution on the battle, but a short while ago i was thinking a lot about the Bragollach bc i collaborated with a wonderful fanfic writer on a Finrod in the Bragollach fic/art, but discussing the general situation of the Bragollach, we also discussed Fingolfin's whole mental state, and especially the moment before he rides out. He basically has a perfect balcony view over the Anfauglith from barad eithel, and from what he knows, most or his entire family from the arafinwean side could just have been eliminated (A&A in dorthonion, finrod at the fen of serech), and of course hador. The way he afterwards rides over the anfauglith, disturbing the dust almost orome-like reminds me of the way he arrives in Beleriand first, trumpets blazing with the sunrise at his back in a challenge, but now reverse, riding into the dark in desperation and retaliation.

From what I see from the wip script, Fingolfin isn't as locked in as in the fic I of course (where he mostly was besieged, blocking the pass to hithlum, so the fic could focus on Finrod being cornered and toyed with in the fen by sauron) But I really liked this emotional breakdown Fingolfin now in my mind is having during the battle, and how his assault on Angband in this battle is now the complete opposite of his triumphant challenge after the first rising of the sun. I don't know if this might fit, but I think a lot of the choreography of the Fingolfin/Morgoth battle comes down to what mental state Fingolfin arrives at the gates in. Anyway, sorry if this is useless, coming in so late especially.

Also I imagine Grond being quite explosive and the battle maybe being very in the dark under the dark clouds of Thangorodrim? A bit like this (although my Morgoth is a bit bigger than you are planning yours):

View attachment 3936
Love the image. Also my image of Fingolfin’s ride across Anfauglith is more like yours, which starts with Fingolfin surveying the carnage across the field and goes from there.
 

Kathrin

Active Member
Firstly, I love your depiction. Secondly, our hosts have very specific thoughts on the mindset of Fingolfin leading up to the duel. My own interpretation of the text is more or less what you're describing here, but the hosts have gone in a more hope-centric direction.
Ah yes I thought so. Maybe fitting considering his arc and the, ehm, descent into misery that everything from here on out will be anyway, the short moment of happiness of beren & luthien excluded. I can see a moment of hope born out of that misery and desperation, a sort of "If not me and now, then who else". Still in the context of him first knocking on the door first, he now doesn't have his army and the silver trumpets and the sunrise, but only the sounds of the war at his back, but he now embodies a shining light of hope and resilience riding into the darkness. And every wound to Morgoth, every avoided hit of Grond's, can be successful revenge if you frame it right. I just wonder how to get that moment where he tires to feel right in that case.

I also love how it is described how Fingolfin's fight robs Morgoth of some of his not only physical power, but his ability to dominate. His captains are pressuring him, the orcs are telling tales about the battle that do not sound like, unilaterally praising.. (I have this not entirely sincere conspiracy theory that the goblin king from the hobbit (golfimbul, who i think was sort-of-named after fingolfin entirely for the golf joke) is kind of a fingolfin stan and that fingolfin remains among the orcs a sort of half-ironic folk hero.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
We discussed the structure of the episodes for the Dagor Bragollach in Session 5-03.


At that time, the decision to spread the battle out across two episodes (12 and 13) was deemed sufficient to give breathing room to the 'aftermath' events - obviously the duel between Fingolfin and Morgoth, but also a quiet moment for Finrod and Andreth to have a conversation, etc. I do not recall if we specifically considered a two hour finale at any point for this season, but we have considered such questions in the past. Generally, it is preferable to do a 'two part' episode, where the events are split into two one-hour episodes rather than a single 2 hour episode.

When we were plotting out the events of Episodes 12 and 13, we did so based on the supposition that they would each be a one hour episode. So, if there are particular scenes or plot points or character moments that feel 'too rushed' in the script being written, certainly that can be called out and addressed...but it is likely too late at this point to redo the entire plan for the finale to account for a 100 minute run time.

So, what I would recommend for now is that we would go forward with a 60 minute plan for the finale, but with the flexibility to make the document a bit longer if certain scenes need more to them. If anything is feeling rushed or crammed into too small a place, we can work on adjusting it to be a bit longer; as you point out, streaming services aren't typically all that bothered by odd run times.

Also, I do apologize for how unclear the 'script outlines' can be. I should clarify what the episode outline documents are meant to be. They are notes from the script discussion, written 'live' during the Twitch stream, to help us keep track of the scenes we are planning. They are meant to be short-hand notes, *not* a comprehensive description of everything that we discuss happening in the episode. The script discussion itself should give the proper context to the episode outline. I recognize that not everyone wants to listen to a 4 hour conversation about people trying to work out the details of how to structure this story, so it's very understandable if people would prefer the 2 page notes over the full discussion! But if the notes seem to be lacking context...that's why. We generally do discuss the character motivations and arcs during the script discussion; the outline focuses on the plot points, so we remember what is happening in each scene.
 

Ilana Mushin

Active Member
We discussed the structure of the episodes for the Dagor Bragollach in Session 5-03.


At that time, the decision to spread the battle out across two episodes (12 and 13) was deemed sufficient to give breathing room to the 'aftermath' events - obviously the duel between Fingolfin and Morgoth, but also a quiet moment for Finrod and Andreth to have a conversation, etc. I do not recall if we specifically considered a two hour finale at any point for this season, but we have considered such questions in the past. Generally, it is preferable to do a 'two part' episode, where the events are split into two one-hour episodes rather than a single 2 hour episode.

When we were plotting out the events of Episodes 12 and 13, we did so based on the supposition that they would each be a one hour episode. So, if there are particular scenes or plot points or character moments that feel 'too rushed' in the script being written, certainly that can be called out and addressed...but it is likely too late at this point to redo the entire plan for the finale to account for a 100 minute run time.

So, what I would recommend for now is that we would go forward with a 60 minute plan for the finale, but with the flexibility to make the document a bit longer if certain scenes need more to them. If anything is feeling rushed or crammed into too small a place, we can work on adjusting it to be a bit longer; as you point out, streaming services aren't typically all that bothered by odd run times.

Also, I do apologize for how unclear the 'script outlines' can be. I should clarify what the episode outline documents are meant to be. They are notes from the script discussion, written 'live' during the Twitch stream, to help us keep track of the scenes we are planning. They are meant to be short-hand notes, *not* a comprehensive description of everything that we discuss happening in the episode. The script discussion itself should give the proper context to the episode outline. I recognize that not everyone wants to listen to a 4 hour conversation about people trying to work out the details of how to structure this story, so it's very understandable if people would prefer the 2 page notes over the full discussion! But if the notes seem to be lacking context...that's why. We generally do discuss the character motivations and arcs during the script discussion; the outline focuses on the plot points, so we remember what is happening in each scene.
I had to make a rational decision when I started listening to the backlog of SilmFilm episodes that the main game was to catch up with the real time program, and that meant I could not listen also to the script discussions - although I would have loved to have been there. My main concern with the pacing was to ensure in episode 13 that space is given to the two plot lines that have barely featured in this season overall - the Feanorians and the Bad Guys. As long as the scenes with them are long enough to feel integrated and not just 'oh, and by the way, here's where Caranthir is or Sauron is', I think it will be fine. I hope I'll be able to show up at some of the script discussions for season 6 - time zones permitting.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
By the by, I've included the names of anyone who has assisted with the editing in the "Edited by" byline. If you don't want to be there, just let me know.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I always imagined Grond as beimg basically a real hammer, like an industrial hammer, but on a long chain, like a flail or rather a chain-morningstar.

I can't say exactly why... it was always the picture in my mind, maybe because i couldn't imagine Morgoth making those huge holes and attacking Fingolfin without hardly ever hitting him by using a normal club/mace be it as large as it would... it would make him look clumsy i guess.

Or maybe it was because in lost tales Melkor one time uses a flail or chainmorni gstar and i mixed that up with the "hammer of the underworld" thing..
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I always imagined Grond as beimg basically a real hammer, like an industrial hammer, but on a long chain, like a flail or rather a chain-morningstar.

I can't say exactly why... it was always the picture in my mind, maybe because i couldn't imagine Morgoth making those huge holes and attacking Fingolfin without hardly ever hitting him by using a normal club/mace be it as large as it would... it would make him look clumsy i guess.

Or maybe it was because in lost tales Melkor one time uses a flail or chainmorni gstar and i mixed that up with the "hammer of the underworld" thing..
Hammer, mace, and flail are used interchangeably; a lot of the art shows Morgoth using a mace/hammer. I've seen flails referred to as maces, which might explain why the Witch-King uses a flail against Eowyn in the Peter Jackson version of Return of the King.

As far as Morgoth looking clumsy, it's essentially David and Goliath; you have a bigger, stronger, slower opponent going up against a smaller, weaker and faster opponent. The fact that Morgoth is so large yet slow means that Fingolfin can dodge most of his attacks. The caveat is that because Morgoth is so big and strong, Fingolfin can't land a mortal blow on him before he tires out. Take the final battle in Independence Day: the City Destroyer bearing down on Area 51 during that scene is 15 miles wide and moves very slowly (one takes about 12 hours to travel between New York City and Philadelphia); however its massive size ensures that even after its shields are deactivated by a computer virus, it can soak up volley after volley of missiles until someone gets close enough to hit the plasma in its' main city-destroying cannon.

Also take a lot of slasher villains; many of them don't move faster than walking speed but can kill in one stroke and absorb blows that would put other people down for the count. Take this scene with Jason Voorhees: Jason barely moves outside of being pushed backwards by the blows, takes dozens of punches, waits for his opponent to tire out (and the guy can barely move his fingers), and takes his head off with a single punch.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I really tried to think of any epic human vs giant duels in movies... i thought i had seen something in animation films, but it obviously is a really hard thing to do.

Morningstar in Marvel does similar damage, but is a fast martial artist. I was thinking of Juggernaut or Mon Starr... Mad Max against Masterblaster but usually it becomes Mickey Mouse aka Jack and the beanstalk.

Still the best example i can think of is knight of hope, this is one big towering fully armoured man with a sword against common brigands though. Not one tough knight against a towering guy twice his size.

 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Also nice...

If morgoth had a hammer-chain-flail and kept Fingolfin at distance, Fingolfin witting him out 7 times i could see it work similarly:

 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I always imagined Grond as beimg basically a real hammer, like an industrial hammer, but on a long chain, like a flail or rather a chain-morningstar.

I can't say exactly why... it was always the picture in my mind, maybe because i couldn't imagine Morgoth making those huge holes and attacking Fingolfin without hardly ever hitting him by using a normal club/mace be it as large as it would... it would make him look clumsy i guess.

Or maybe it was because in lost tales Melkor one time uses a flail or chainmorni gstar and i mixed that up with the "hammer of the underworld" thing..
One thing I'd like to avoid is something that reminds viewers of the fight between Eowyn and the Witch King.

Flails are kind of done a bit weirdly in media in a way that isn't really anything like history. I'd be willing to talk about it, but I'd want to be careful.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Ooo. Yeah that scene i had totally forgotten about! Youre right... in the books it was clearly a reminiscence to the other duel.I just rewatched it... not everything about it is bad, but it ends quickly and looks strange, like it was all about eowyn standing no chance and the witch king showing off with an unrealistic sized weapon not even looking very good at it.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
There's always the scene from Kill Bill, where Black Mamba fights Gogo Yubari. I am not suggesting we do anything in that style at all, but the scene is memorable and has some interesting choreography.

(Warning for Quentin Tarantino style violence)

Also, for a completely-the-wrong-style fight scene, there is the giant Ant-man at the airport scene from Captain America: Civil War.

I would say this is one of the least-serious parts of this particular fight sequence. There are jokes sprinkled throughout, of course, but this part doesn't feel particularly high stakes - it's just a diversion. Still, if you're looking for logistics, and how you work with mismatched sizes and speeds, it's not a bad example.

Likewise, Hulk smashing Loki is more amusing than anything. Hulk is not as big as Morgoth, naturally, but he's big enough to be considered significantly bigger than his human-size opponents/teammates. What he is *not* is slow....
For an actual duel-style fight scene with the Hulk, you'd have to go to Thor: Ragnarok for the Sakaar gladiator fight scene between Hulk and Thor. He even uses a hammer....
 
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