Season 3 Script Outlines
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
So... any feedback for my suggestions about Episode 12, or my notes for Episode 13? I'm getting discouraged and worried by the lack of response from Nick and Marie. I'm probably being too impatient (considering I was absent for a week or more) but we only have 3 days left to work on this.
🙁 Is it OK for me to add my suggestions to Episodes 12 and 13 on Google Docs... nor not?
🙁 Is it OK for me to add my suggestions to Episodes 12 and 13 on Google Docs... nor not?
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Yes, as my wife has come into her third trimester, I'm trying the best I can to keep her off her feet, which gives me substantially less time to sit down and put serious work into anything here. As I'm off today and she is not, I'm trying to get through all of the outlines for a final look in between getting the house in order. One thing I would caution against is putting a lot of emphasis on minor details in the outlines. It trips up the hosts because they start trying to figure out what the significance of that emphasis is. This has a tendency to slow down the process and take the conversation into tangents that end up creating more work. Most of the suggestions don't really change the meat of anything though, and thus are, to my estimation, acceptable.
Thank you Nick. 🙂
It hadn't occurred to me before that there could be such thing as too much detail in an outline. I'll need to keep that in mind when writing.
Would it be OK for me to incorporate my notes that I took during our Episode 13 discussion into the Episode 13 draft? The details MithLuin added last week aren't in all cases the same as the details the three of us discussed during the discussion.
It hadn't occurred to me before that there could be such thing as too much detail in an outline. I'll need to keep that in mind when writing.
Would it be OK for me to incorporate my notes that I took during our Episode 13 discussion into the Episode 13 draft? The details MithLuin added last week aren't in all cases the same as the details the three of us discussed during the discussion.
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So, I really cannot wait any longer for an answer to my question or response to the session notes from Ep 13. The session notes need to be incorporated into the episode, now, and I can't wait longer for permission and feedback. I don't understand why nobody will talk about the session notes, or if there's some error preventing me from being able to see MithLuin's posts. But I have to add the session notes to Episode 13 today. I may not have much time this evening or tomorrow.
I will separate what are merely my suggestions (which we didn't discuss on Saturday) in a different format, as suggestions instead of actual edits. I will incorporate what MithLuin wrote as much as I can - most of it is similar to the session notes though shorter.
I will separate what are merely my suggestions (which we didn't discuss on Saturday) in a different format, as suggestions instead of actual edits. I will incorporate what MithLuin wrote as much as I can - most of it is similar to the session notes though shorter.
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Oh. I'm not sure we're on the same page here. Everyone is doing their best. At times, people just don't have the opportunity to be as active as they want. You really have to be more patient. But I do think that it's a good idea to insert your suggestions, since Nick specifically said that he thought they were ok. I think you should go for it the way you're suggesting.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I went ahead and incorporated most of the suggestions with minimal edits. Divorcing the Hiding of Valinor from the Sunrise Montage is not something I'm willing to do without running it by the hosts. I have not incorporated the use of Grond until we have more resolution on that point.
I'm not being unduly impatient, Haakon. The deadline is today, not Friday. MithLuin hasn't participated or responded at all since at least a week ago. My attempts to get the ball moving have mostly been ignored. My questions about important things that we need to finish/fix have all been ignored, without exception. My attempts to ask why, have also all been ignored. I'm doing my best to collaborate, but that is very hard under these circumstances.
Most of what I added to Episodes 12 and 13 were not "suggestions", they were the session notes containing what we three agreed upon during the Saturday script session. We already agreed upon many things, which I recorded as accurately as possible. I posted those session notes here on the forum, and explained where they came from and what they are. I am sorry that I posted the Ep 13 notes later than I should have, but I did post them last week. I waited until the last possible minute for comments and feedback, and saw none.
One of the things we agreed upon is that the Hiding of Valinor would not be accomplished in a mere 5 seconds. Nick and MithLuin both agreed that it should be an extended sequence, not a single 5-second shot. Making it longer than 5 seconds was OK last Saturday - in fact Nick posted a sequence from a movie which lasted several minutes as an indication of what would be acceptable to him.
Most of what I added to Episodes 12 and 13 were not "suggestions", they were the session notes containing what we three agreed upon during the Saturday script session. We already agreed upon many things, which I recorded as accurately as possible. I posted those session notes here on the forum, and explained where they came from and what they are. I am sorry that I posted the Ep 13 notes later than I should have, but I did post them last week. I waited until the last possible minute for comments and feedback, and saw none.
One of the things we agreed upon is that the Hiding of Valinor would not be accomplished in a mere 5 seconds. Nick and MithLuin both agreed that it should be an extended sequence, not a single 5-second shot. Making it longer than 5 seconds was OK last Saturday - in fact Nick posted a sequence from a movie which lasted several minutes as an indication of what would be acceptable to him.
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Faelivrin, it seems there was a breakdown in communication somewhere. I posted links to the Google Docs for all episodes, and then posted on May 21st inviting everyone to edit and work on them, particularly on Episodes 9-13. Everyone of course includes you - this is a collaborative project.
I saw that you posted your notes for Episode 13, which I certainly appreciate. I have been busy this past week, having picked up some extra hours at work (this was not a holiday weekend for me), so had not had the opportunity to review them and figure out how to integrate them into the Outline for that episode, but it seems you and Nick have that covered. As I mentioned yesterday, I should have time to review all of the outlines today, and hope to send them along to the Execs after.
I am not sure what you think should have happened differently?
I saw that you posted your notes for Episode 13, which I certainly appreciate. I have been busy this past week, having picked up some extra hours at work (this was not a holiday weekend for me), so had not had the opportunity to review them and figure out how to integrate them into the Outline for that episode, but it seems you and Nick have that covered. As I mentioned yesterday, I should have time to review all of the outlines today, and hope to send them along to the Execs after.
I am not sure what you think should have happened differently?
Thank you for saying something.
I am leery of just unilaterally making huge edits with no OK from the people I'm supposed to be collaborating with - that's why I ask. I know that the way I express my opinions is usually aggressive or comes across that way, so I don't want to come across as forcing my ideas on anyone. And I don't always have a clear idea how much I am allowed to do. I was trying to avoid being aggressive.
I was waiting for anything, even just one word, that the session notes were ok, before making massive edits.
I am leery of just unilaterally making huge edits with no OK from the people I'm supposed to be collaborating with - that's why I ask. I know that the way I express my opinions is usually aggressive or comes across that way, so I don't want to come across as forcing my ideas on anyone. And I don't always have a clear idea how much I am allowed to do. I was trying to avoid being aggressive.
I was waiting for anything, even just one word, that the session notes were ok, before making massive edits.
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The only reason I didn't use your session notes as the basis for the outline in the first place was that they hadn't been posted yet. So, I went with what we had at the time, which were Nick's rough notes and my elaboration thereof.
Edits in Google Docs have a record, and are easily reviewed. It's the most transparent way I know to allow people to collaboratively edit a document, which is why I give everyone here access to the file. I appreciate your efforts not to step on toes, but I was trying to understand if you were asking me to integrate your session notes for you; if so, that was something I certainly did not have the time or energy to tackle until today. If you just wanted permission to do so yourself - I was under the impression that I had already granted it, multiple times. Explicitly. Nick also responded to your comments. As did Haakon.
I can tell that you are frustrated, and I can tell that you consider me to be the source of the frustration. I am sorry for that, but I am not sure exactly what I'm apologizing for. It's true I haven't been on here much in the past week, but all of the Google Docs have been open for editing and comments, so...I'm not sure what more you wanted from me.
Edits in Google Docs have a record, and are easily reviewed. It's the most transparent way I know to allow people to collaboratively edit a document, which is why I give everyone here access to the file. I appreciate your efforts not to step on toes, but I was trying to understand if you were asking me to integrate your session notes for you; if so, that was something I certainly did not have the time or energy to tackle until today. If you just wanted permission to do so yourself - I was under the impression that I had already granted it, multiple times. Explicitly. Nick also responded to your comments. As did Haakon.
I can tell that you are frustrated, and I can tell that you consider me to be the source of the frustration. I am sorry for that, but I am not sure exactly what I'm apologizing for. It's true I haven't been on here much in the past week, but all of the Google Docs have been open for editing and comments, so...I'm not sure what more you wanted from me.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
To clarify:
Edits relating to grammar or standardization can be made without discussion. Adding details which were already discussed can be done without discussion, though I'd at least mark those so that they can be seen easily as an alteration. Adding scenes or concepts should probably be discussed either on the boards or in comments to the documents.
Now, you had some 60+ minor edits on the two documents set up as "suggestions", and I approved almost all of them over the past three days. Conversations have taken place on the documents over the introduction of Grond, in which both Haakon and I have participated with you. I would not classify any of this as ignoring your attempts to get the ball rolling.
I would like to just throw in a quick reminder, for everyone concerned. This is a collaborative project we are doing for fun in our spare time. Some of us have more spare time than others. And each of us has a different definition of what is "fun."
Edits relating to grammar or standardization can be made without discussion. Adding details which were already discussed can be done without discussion, though I'd at least mark those so that they can be seen easily as an alteration. Adding scenes or concepts should probably be discussed either on the boards or in comments to the documents.
Now, you had some 60+ minor edits on the two documents set up as "suggestions", and I approved almost all of them over the past three days. Conversations have taken place on the documents over the introduction of Grond, in which both Haakon and I have participated with you. I would not classify any of this as ignoring your attempts to get the ball rolling.
I would like to just throw in a quick reminder, for everyone concerned. This is a collaborative project we are doing for fun in our spare time. Some of us have more spare time than others. And each of us has a different definition of what is "fun."
The Google Doc for Episode 12 was created on April 28th. So, if notes from May 5th were not incorporated into it, the first conclusion would be that no one had thought to make those edits or gotten around to it yet. If you wanted to add them or edit them, you are welcome to. If you thought there was an issue, a polite heads up that you've made some recent changes/updates is fine. Expecting other people to add content for you is maybe asking them to do work that they did not volunteer to do.
From my perspective, what has happened is that you posted new notes on Saturday, and then became anxious when no one reacted to them, presumably because of a perceived looming deadline. We are all adults here, and we're all people with lives. If someone wants to volunteer to accomplish a task, that's fine, but for the most part we're all pretty laid back about not assigning tasks to others. You did get the notes incorporated, and you did get feedback from Nick about the edits and changes. I'm still wondering...what is it you were hoping for?
We've been using the Google Docs for the Episode Outlines for the entire post season process, as the best way to incorporate everyone's edits/improvements into the final document. We also used Google Docs for the Episode Outlines in Season 1. (I think Season 2 was all in pdf format, because I'm not really familiar with Google Docs and just did it myself.) And, yes, it is a change from discussing on the messageboards, but it's meant to be less cumbersome and allowing people to focus the discussion on the part of the outline it applies to. I'm sorry if the format shift is causing problems, but I'm a bit confused why this is suddenly a problem for Episodes 12 and 13?
From my perspective, what has happened is that you posted new notes on Saturday, and then became anxious when no one reacted to them, presumably because of a perceived looming deadline. We are all adults here, and we're all people with lives. If someone wants to volunteer to accomplish a task, that's fine, but for the most part we're all pretty laid back about not assigning tasks to others. You did get the notes incorporated, and you did get feedback from Nick about the edits and changes. I'm still wondering...what is it you were hoping for?
We've been using the Google Docs for the Episode Outlines for the entire post season process, as the best way to incorporate everyone's edits/improvements into the final document. We also used Google Docs for the Episode Outlines in Season 1. (I think Season 2 was all in pdf format, because I'm not really familiar with Google Docs and just did it myself.) And, yes, it is a change from discussing on the messageboards, but it's meant to be less cumbersome and allowing people to focus the discussion on the part of the outline it applies to. I'm sorry if the format shift is causing problems, but I'm a bit confused why this is suddenly a problem for Episodes 12 and 13?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
In that case, I shall refrain from responding to what was said therein.
I’m sorry for writing such a long post, but I feel like I need to explain what I am thinking and try to work through some of this problem so it won’t happen again and we can work together more smoothly and happily.
There has been a lot of miscommunication and lack of communication. I think one cause of the problem is that Marie, Nick, Haakon, and the other major contributors all apparently started a long while ago (before Season 1?) and figured out all the expectations and procedures together at that time. You all know the rules and routines, and you seem to have gotten to know each other very well by now.
But I started in Season 3, and I don’t know the unspoken expectations, requirements, rules, and script-writing procedures. They aren’t written down, and they trip me up frequently. That’s why I was confused when suddenly all conversations had to be moved off the forum to the Google Docs for Episodes 12-13 – I didn’t know that was the procedure. This is one reason I ask for clarification and permission.
Before Ep 12 we discussed each episode in detail on the forum. MithLuin put them on Google Docs only after they were almost completely finished, and we only ever made small edits on Google Docs. I agree that there are major advantages to editing* in Google Docs... but only if the rules are clear.
*not to discussions there, unfortunately
I was very uncertain if my session notes for Episode 12 had been rejected, because although I had posted them way back on May 5, this happened on the Google Doc created on May 16:
The lack of Episode 13 session notes was my fault for not posting it earlier, for which I apologize. But I wouldn’t just delete a whole episode MithLuin wrote without asking first. I’m trying really hard to be a good collaborator and not to be aggressive by deleting your hard work.
I volunteered to do all the work of incorporating the session notes myself, and I asked for permission, both on the forum and in comments on the Google Docs. I wouldn't ask if I already knew the answer!
All I was hoping for was one single word such as “OK”. Nobody answered.
After I rewrote Episode 12 without permission, Nick’s response was the first response I had gotten. And still nobody gave me permission to upload Episode 13 session notes.
That was one problem.
The other problem was the communication problems happening right before a deadline.
What had me feeling ignored was not the lack of communication. It was because the forum said you were both online most days all this week and all last weekend, and even said you were both posting. I think the forum has an error. I had no idea you were actually too busy to talk to anyone. I am sorry for not understanding.
I also became very worried because the deadline was close and I still hadn’t heard anything by Monday. We didn’t finish Episode 13 because we ran out of time, and now we can’t fix it. That’s why I was worried.
In retrospect, I think that when we know that the next two weeks will be too busy to do any editing at all, then it may be a good idea to ask the Hosts to postpone the review so we can actually get the scripts finished before the deadline.
Thank you for reading. Sorry I can’t be more concise.
There has been a lot of miscommunication and lack of communication. I think one cause of the problem is that Marie, Nick, Haakon, and the other major contributors all apparently started a long while ago (before Season 1?) and figured out all the expectations and procedures together at that time. You all know the rules and routines, and you seem to have gotten to know each other very well by now.
But I started in Season 3, and I don’t know the unspoken expectations, requirements, rules, and script-writing procedures. They aren’t written down, and they trip me up frequently. That’s why I was confused when suddenly all conversations had to be moved off the forum to the Google Docs for Episodes 12-13 – I didn’t know that was the procedure. This is one reason I ask for clarification and permission.
“open for editing” seems very vague to me. It doesn’t say how large an edit is allowed. Proofreading typos seemed alright. But deleting almost every word in all of Episode 13 (and ~half of Episode 12) and rewriting them completely from scratch? I wasn’t at all sure about doing that.
Before Ep 12 we discussed each episode in detail on the forum. MithLuin put them on Google Docs only after they were almost completely finished, and we only ever made small edits on Google Docs. I agree that there are major advantages to editing* in Google Docs... but only if the rules are clear.
*not to discussions there, unfortunately
Thank you so much, this is a really great start towards explaining the rules. This sort of clarification helps me immensely.
I was very uncertain if my session notes for Episode 12 had been rejected, because although I had posted them way back on May 5, this happened on the Google Doc created on May 16:
When I requested clarification and permission, nobody responded, and I still don’t understand. After that, I doubted very much if I was allowed to add any of my session notes into Episodes 12-13. I didn’t want to step on any toes with wholesale rewriting. I didn’t think I should add something that had already been rejected.
The lack of Episode 13 session notes was my fault for not posting it earlier, for which I apologize. But I wouldn’t just delete a whole episode MithLuin wrote without asking first. I’m trying really hard to be a good collaborator and not to be aggressive by deleting your hard work.
No, not at all!
I volunteered to do all the work of incorporating the session notes myself, and I asked for permission, both on the forum and in comments on the Google Docs. I wouldn't ask if I already knew the answer!
All I was hoping for was one single word such as “OK”. Nobody answered.
After I rewrote Episode 12 without permission, Nick’s response was the first response I had gotten. And still nobody gave me permission to upload Episode 13 session notes.
That was one problem.
The other problem was the communication problems happening right before a deadline.
What had me feeling ignored was not the lack of communication. It was because the forum said you were both online most days all this week and all last weekend, and even said you were both posting. I think the forum has an error. I had no idea you were actually too busy to talk to anyone. I am sorry for not understanding.
I also became very worried because the deadline was close and I still hadn’t heard anything by Monday. We didn’t finish Episode 13 because we ran out of time, and now we can’t fix it. That’s why I was worried.
In retrospect, I think that when we know that the next two weeks will be too busy to do any editing at all, then it may be a good idea to ask the Hosts to postpone the review so we can actually get the scripts finished before the deadline.
Thank you for reading. Sorry I can’t be more concise.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
You may have noticed that until quite recently, there really wasn't much in the way of "rules" per se around here. People generally worked together, discussing - sometimes passionately - the topics at hand. This has worked, in general, because the folks involved generally worked to assume the best intentions in others rather than the worst. Most of the folks on these forums have been involved with Mythgard to some degree or another, a community which is one of the most genuinely pleasant ones it has been my privilege to know. While not by any stretch of the imagination a completely undivided collective, this group has been able to function to some degree of harmony since these boards opened in 2015, nearly three years ago. In essence, there have not been rules because there really wasn't much of a necessity for any to exist. But the courtesy of these halls is somewhat lessened of late.
Again, this has been something that has not required a detailed explanation for some time now. I'm not sure why anyone would want to delete everything someone else had written and replace it from scratch. It is not something that has come up, until now. And yes, there was more time to discuss the episodes at length on the forums prior to the final two, but a more or less complete draft had to be put somewhere in preparation for the coming discussion. As it stands, they have not changed very much in any material way from their original. The meaning certainly hasn't, aside from a few things we have tackled over the past several days. As to the "rules", once again, up until recently, none have been needed for the purposes of this project.
Since there was no evidence that any rejection had taken place, I'm not sure why anyone would jump to this conclusion. Most of what you had written seemed quite in keeping with what we had discussed, and as I state in that post, I wound up lifting most of the outline directly from it.
I'm going to put this very plainly: No one on this project is obligated to it in any way. That means that sometimes when you post something, it may take some time for someone to respond. When you ask for someone to go through a bunch of information, that increases the time commitment it takes to construct a response, and thus the time it may take for them to sit down and do so. As to wholesale rewriting, I'm not sure why that would be necessary in any case. I have read the original document Marie posted, and aside from a few minor points, it is not materially different from what exists now. It is cleaner and more specific, but that is about it (again, aside from a few minor points). Addition of details is not deletion.
Permission had already been given to edit the document. That is why is is open to be editing by anyone who has a link. If we were extremely concerned about it being destroyed or defaced in some way, we would not do it like this. This point has been stated many times, and saying otherwise is a clear mischaracterization of what has happened.
There is no error. Working on the script outlines is just that. Work. It takes a great amount of time to read through all the information and process it coherently. It is more work than casually responding to a post, or even writing a longer one in bits and pieces over time. To put it bluntly, I have not had thirty to forty minutes to sit at my computer and go over everything more than a few times over the past month. And I'm not going to apologize for that. As to the forums saying that we are here, it will say that as long as a computer is on with a forum page up in a browser, and my home computer is never turned off. Not one time since I have been here have I had to explain real-life constraints that prevented me from responding to something on this forum, until now. I sincerely should not have to do so.
As it is, there was no need to postpone anything. Everything has been done on time (indeed, it may even be ahead of time, since it is quite likely that the hosts will not make it through five episodes tomorrow). There has never been a time when this has not happened.
To be honest, this past season has been one of ... no, the most difficult for me. I have spent more time arguing over minutiae than creating content, which makes this more stressful than fun. This is not, and should not be considered, censure of a single person. I feel like I have been forced to defend not only my own place in this process, but that of those who have lead it from the beginning.
On one hand, maybe it is better for us to have more strict rules around here. The Internet is an ugly place, and the bar to entry here is quite low. Perhaps it was delusional of us to think that we would be allowed to enjoy this project in peaceful anarchy.
Part of the problem is that none of us felt qualified or empowered to create rules for others to abide by. Most of us have no tendency toward domination of the wills of others. When it became a problem, we could have kicked it up to Mythgard, the owners of the site, to handle it, but we thought instead to attempt to handle it ourselves through rational discourse. How well that will work out remains to be seen.
Now here's the deal: I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to continue to try to create content for this project to the best of my ability. I'm going to read and write material when my own life allows, and not before. If I do not respond to something immediately, that is going to have to be ok. I'm sure the same goes for everyone you named in your post. You can either operate under those conditions, or you cannot. I'm not going to implore anyone to stick around if they have not the desire or the will to do so. On the other hand, I have no desire to exclude anyone from this project, nor do I foresee having such a desire in the future. We have, as a group, been willing to work with anyone who wanted to work with us.