Seeds

amysrevenge

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Thinking about seeds to plant for FAAAAR future payoffs.

It would be fun if we named/introduced whatever unnamed-in-the-text Elven smith(s) will, in the 3rd Age in Rivendell (in one sentence fragment hahahahaha), reforge Narsil into Anduril. Because whoever that is, they are almost certainly active now, and could get a good look at it freshly forged (and meet Telchar perhaps).

It's a bit of a throw-away, I suppose, but it could be fun.
 
Oh I remember the thread (but not the details therein without revisiting it); everyone has great ideas about who has it, when, and tracking its movements.

This bit though, the reforging, we know more about since we know exactly when and where it happens. But not by whom, in specific. Unless we got to that point in the linked thread also (that I don't remember).
 
amysrevenge said:
Oh I remember the thread (but not the details therein without revisiting it); everyone has great ideas about who has it, when, and tracking its movements.

This bit though, the reforging, we know more about since we know exactly when and where it happens. But not by whom, in specific. Unless we got to that point in the linked thread also (that I don't remember).
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The conversation kinda degenerated into wondering how to make Ecthelion able to kill Gothmog despite his injuries without making it look like Monty Python’s Black Knight. That was the last of that conversation.
 
Should some of these smiths be among those who help reforge Anglachel/Gurthang?

I think Celebrimbor probably reforged it, but if reforging a blade is a multi-person process, then we can have some of the same secondary smiths work on both Anglachel and Narsil.
 
Faelivrin said:
Should some of these smiths be among those who help reforge Anglachel/Gurthang?

I think Celebrimbor probably reforged it, but if reforging a blade is a multi-person process, then we can have some of the same secondary smiths work on both Anglachel and Narsil.
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Eol seems to be the only person who worked with Anglachel and Anguirel. Angrist (the knife used by Beren to cut a Silmaril from Morgoth’s crown) and Narsil are weapons made by Telchar. My personal theory is that Angrist was a sister weapon of Narsil, Curufin wielded both, and both were taken from him by Beren. How it winds up at Numenor is a mystery, however.
 
Anglachel was actually reforged in Nargothrond by "the cunning smiths" or somesuch. Celebrimbor lived there and was "obsess[ed] with crafts" so I figured he would really want to get his hands on galvorn. I also think of him as the architect of the ill-conceived bridge (it would be a foreshadowing of how he builds cool stuff that turns out to have been a really, really bad idea...).
 
I would like to expand Enerdhil as a character who was maybe Celebrimbor's teacher after Feanor. As for Eol... it seems possible that he had one or two apprentices in his small tribe, but i doubt he would have told anyone the secret of Galvorn... but Celebrimbor being keen to find out about it is an interesting idea!
 
I posted this in the other thread (going to delete it there as it's off topic for that thread and on topic for this one).

That raises an interesting point. Almost all of the known/interesting characters either die or go to Valinor. Who do we keep? Galadriel/Celeborn. Celebrimbor. Elrond. Gil-galad. Thranduil. Glorfindel the 2nd.

We later meet Gildor, who we can assume was there but we don't meet at the time. And that dude at the Council whose name I can never remember.

Anyone else? Only people we make up, I reckon. Or people who juuuuuust barely already exist in the overall canon, but whose stories we 99% make up.
 
@Haerangil When and where would you propose Enerdhil taught Celebrimbor, though? Celebrimbor was the less skilled, but surely he initially learned is crafts from his father and grandfather. If you mean after Feanor's death? Enerdhil lived in Nevrast > Gondolin, but Celebrimbor lived in Himlad > Tol Sirion > Nargothrond > Doriath. They would have met again at the Havens* and could have lived in the same place in the early 2nd Age -- is that where you want them to meet and make friends? Enerdhil could well be one of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain. I had thought (though I can't cite a book for it) that Pengolodh lived in Eregion for a time.

*Unless we use MithLuin's proposal to merge Enerdhil and Rog, and kill him off since Rog died in the Lost Tales.

Galvorn was made of a "falling star" (meteor??) so it might be a sort of iron-nickel-something alloy rather than a magical element unique to Arda. Then again I think mithril is titanium, and I know many consider it wholly imaginary.

@amysrevenge We could decide that Erestor was from the First Age. But I think it's saying something that Elrond was made a general when he is, apparently, mainly a healer instead of a fighter. I don't think more than a handful of First Age Elves were left in Middle-earth by the end of the Third Age.
They did die out and leave gradually, though. In the Second Age there're Gil-galad, Pengolodh, Celebrimbor, possibly Enerdhil early on, and Cirdan who stays longer. We can include potentially any lord of Gondolin who didn't die in the sack of Gondolin nor at the Havens (so Galdor and/or Legolas, plus Glorfindel) or change the fate of one of those who died in the Lost Tales (Duilin, Salgant, Egalmoth, Penlod, Rog). Am I missing/forgetting any others? I do want the sacks of various fortresses/cities to kill multiple named characters to make it feel more tragic.
 
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Oh man I can't believe I forgot Cirdan. He's my favourite. Hahaha.

I'd posit that among the Hollin Elves there were probably a large handful of Noldor.

But I think also that that might relate to my other post about names and conventions in the text. "Gildor" remained in Eriador to at least the end of the Third Age - meaning Gildor and his retinue, who were probably largely also Noldor from at least the First Age, and possibly even from Valinor. Celebrimbor lived in Hollin - Celebrimbor and his host of nameless followers. So even just the fewer than 10 "interesting" 1st Age Elves that we keep, really means probably hundreds or thousands of actual bodies.

But we could possibly cultivate and/or make more interesting a few more, I think. Just so that there's more carrying us forward past the 1st Age. Otherwise Rivendell just means "Elrond" and Hollin just means "Celebrimbor" and Lindon just means "Gil-galad" and there are no Elven character interactions any more. I know that the 2nd Age is the age of Men, but it's not quite as stark as our transition earlier on between Valar -> Elves.

Even if it's literally just making the few we end up with a bit more interesting. Make Erestor and Gildor and that other Havens Elf from the Council and Enerdhil (if we go there) more interesting in the times where they don't appear in the text, but surely must have been around.

Gildor, for instance, is already MUCH more interesting to me now than he ever was before the Exploring LotR class. I'd love to nail down his parentage. It would delight me if we found a way to Tolkien-style retcon it so that literally "Gildor Inglorien of the House of Finrod" works, even though Finrod had no "House" on this side of the Sea (as far as I know it's pretty clear that the character Finarfin was previously called Finrod, and Gildor would probably best be renamed as of the House of Finarfin, but LotR and not Silmarillion is the book that was actually published in Tolkien's lifetime after all, so that's not where the change would have to be for us).
 
@Faelivrin, both lived at gondolin for some time i think


Mithril=titanium, seriously, NO!

I think there is quite a number of individuals we could flesh out or reuse throughout the series... Aranwe could be an interesting candidate, we have arminas and Galdor from the Falas, Annael of Mithrim, Hendor , Meleth, Pengolodh and Elemmakil of Gondolin, Ithilbor, Evranin and Gereth of Ossiriand, Findobar of Ivrien maybe, Gimli the blind Gnome, Guilin and Ornil of Nargothrond, Ilverin Littleheart, Nielthi and Nellas of Doriath, Quennar and Torhir Ifant...

I mean most of these are sidecharacters, or even only names, but if we think one sounds interesting, has a good name or could be fleshed out... why not reuse him (or her) in a different context too? The good thing is, Elves are immortal...
 
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Regarding galvorn. I always thought the "secret" to working with galvorn was in the finding of it, not the working of it.
 
Hmm... i don't know

I thought it was an alloy, there was some alien meteoric-iron it it, but that was not identical to Galvorn, but then again I'm a learned steelworker and i know a bit of alloys and kinds of steel and... honestly the meteoric iron we know so far is a pretty dull material.
 
Haerangil said:
@Faelivrin, both lived at gondolin for some time i think
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That was indeed one of the 4 backstories proposed for Celebrimbor; however out of all the backstories Tolkien gave him, the one he chose to publish in the LotR was being a grandson of Feanor. That isn't compatible with being an elf of Gondolin (nor the other backstories: a Sinda descended from Daeron, a Teler from Alqualonde.) Turgon would not permit a Feanorian to come to Gondolin, he hates the sons of Feanor more than any other prince in Fingolfin's host.
 
Hmm... i haven't thought about that.Would he truly? Even after the nirnaeth arnoediad? Not even a grandchild?
 
If mithril is going to be an element (rather than a mineral), then it's mostly aluminum (light weight, doesn't tarnish, impossible to mine prior to the invention of electricity)...just magically as strong as steel for some reason.

But most likely, mithril is an alloy of some sort, not a native element.


As for the idea of having seeds planted in the First Age that will bloom in the 2nd or 3rd Age - YES, we should definitely do that. This thread will be a great place to keep track of all such suggestions.
 
I think we can have Celebrimbor and Enerdhil make friends at the Havens and in Lindon and Eregion, provided we don't kill Enerdhil off or sail him away. That would be a nod to the Gondolin!-alt-Celebrimbor, but more compatible with Feanorian!-Celebrimbor. And if Enerdhil is a better jewelsmith he would likely have something to teach Celebrimbor.

Haerangil said:
Hmm... i haven't thought about that.Would he truly? Even after the nirnaeth arnoediad? Not even a grandchild?
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In the Lost Tales and the earliest Quenta, Gondolin was founded after the Nirnaeth and was a haven for Elven refugees. But in the later writing it's strongly implied, in one place almost outright stated, that no outsiders got into Gondolin before Eol, Maeglin, Huor, and Hurin. In the Nirnaeth some survivors of Fingon's host retreated with Turgon's host into Gondolin. But some time after Tuor's arrival and before Hurin's release from Angband, Turgon had the Way of Escape blocked up and sealed. Hurin, Huor, and Tuor only got in because Thorondor and Ulmo sponsored them, so to speak. I don't believe Turgon would even consider letting in somebody who participated in stealing the ships and leaving Turgon and Elenwe to the Helkaraxe - even if Celebrimbor somehow found the city.

But, when would Celebrimbor try to go to Gondolin? And how would he find it?

The only segment of Feanorian-Celebrimbor's life not outlined somewhere by Tolkien is: where did he live after Nargothrond was sacked, and before moving to Lindon. So we do have some inventing to do. When all the other refugees from Nargothrond barely survived the 83-100 mi trip to Doriath, I doubt he'd want to wander in the wilderness and freeze to death looking for a hidden city, since he hadn't the least guess where it might be. Everyone assumed it was somewhere in the south... Thingol isn't friendly to Feanorians either, of course. But Celebrimbor might as well take a chance on being let into Doriath with the other refugees, instead of wander in the Fell Winter and almost guarantee his death in the cold. Being a prisoner in Doriath looks more survivable. I was imagining that he offered himself as a hostage to Thingol, to guarantee the good behavior of the other surviving Feanorians with him.
 
Presumably, Celebrimbor would go to Círdan after the fall of Nargothrond, not Thingol. But obviously Tolkien never said, so we'll have to figure that out when we get there.
 
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