Session 2.10 for S2E06

Hey guys I’ve never actually posted here but I’ve been following this from the beginning. If I’m not supposed to post here I apologize up front.


Just my two cents on how to possibly handle Finwe and his decision to “move on.” I think it’s possible to show him taking a natural course from being emotionally distraught to eventually a hint (not over doing it) of anger? It’s actually the natural progression. With a little anger (maybe a lot inside him but it should only be hinted at onscreen), a LOT of time and a nudge from a beautiful Indis an audience would probably see some justification, or at least “… from his point of view” type thing.

In addition, we can use that hint of anger to build some friction between Indis and Feanor.

  • Feanor is in terrible grief and with time his mother becomes everything perfect in his mind (it’s what almost always happens when someone passes away)

  • Finwe is moving on from grief to a bit of anger at what he perceives as a selfish choice.

  • Indis is there, genuinely innocent of ulterior motives, to console Finwe.

  • Feanor witnesses this bit of anger from his father (or at least a clear change of attitude towards Miriel) … this bothers Feanor and anger and resentment begins to brew inside him. However, is loath to actually point this at his father.

  • Meanwhile, Feanor is witnessing this “other” woman in his father’s life. He notices how fond Finwe is of Indis and how “over” his father seems to be concerning Miriel.
BAM, now Feanor has an acceptable (in his mind) target to focus his resentment and anger on.

I think with this route it’s possible to keep Finwe from being perceived as a jerk, Indis from being perceived as “the homewrecker” and the audience will also sympathize with Feanor … even if the target of his anger is misplaced.

Again, sorry if I’m supposed to post here.
 
Shawn Mitchell said:
Hey guys I’ve never actually posted here but I’ve been following this from the beginning. If I’m not supposed to post here I apologize up front.


Just my two cents on how to possibly handle Finwe and his decision to “move on.” I think it’s possible to show him taking a natural course from being emotionally distraught to eventually a hint (not over doing it) of anger? It’s actually the natural progression. With a little anger (maybe a lot inside him but it should only be hinted at onscreen), a LOT of time and a nudge from a beautiful Indis an audience would probably see some justification, or at least “… from his point of view” type thing.

In addition, we can use that hint of anger to build some friction between Indis and Feanor.

  • Feanor is in terrible grief and with time his mother becomes everything perfect in his mind (it’s what almost always happens when someone passes away)

  • Finwe is moving on from grief to a bit of anger at what he perceives as a selfish choice.

  • Indis is there, genuinely innocent of ulterior motives, to console Finwe.

  • Feanor witnesses this bit of anger from his father (or at least a clear change of attitude towards Miriel) … this bothers Feanor and anger and resentment begins to brew inside him. However, is loath to actually point this at his father.

  • Meanwhile, Feanor is witnessing this “other” woman in his father’s life. He notices how fond Finwe is of Indis and how “over” his father seems to be concerning Miriel.
BAM, now Feanor has an acceptable (in his mind) target to focus his resentment and anger on.

I think with this route it’s possible to keep Finwe from being perceived as a jerk, Indis from being perceived as “the homewrecker” and the audience will also sympathize with Feanor … even if the target of his anger is misplaced.

Again, sorry if I’m supposed to post here.
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Hi Shawn! You've come to the right place.

I really like your ideas - Finwë could definitely feel anger, which he holds back but fails to hide from Fëanor. And the process you describe Fëanor could go through - that sounds solid to me.

I still think we need to discuss one thing about this process:

However we do it, the most crucial part will be showing Indis without painting her as a "homewrecker". Consolation, as you suggest, can be percieved as strategic. I think we must show Finwë and Indis together in a couple of scenes where none of them take actions to try to initiate a closer relationship. It must seem like almost something they don't want.
 
Haakon, I couldn’t agree more. In fact, my entire thinking was how this could possibly unfold AND have our audience still care about the pivotal characters. The way I see this, and it is certainly just my opinion, we have a tragic scenario that must play out. We have characters who play pivotal roles far into the future. Those characters will obviously have to partake in some “questionable” decision making – for the tragedy to play out. They must still be cared about at the end b/c they have a lot of major events hinged upon them in the future episodes.


Possibilities:

  • We show that Finwe and Indis had a genuine plutonic relationship BEFORE any of this happens.

  • Finwe can be the one that seeks advice/comfort/a sounding block, from his friend Indis.

  • Following your suggestion we can show how Indis (and Finwe?) is/are aware of how this may be perceived and is a bit hesitant or maybe blatantly resistant. We show her talking to friends (supporting, minor cast) where these very topics are brought up … we must show in some way her motives are pure. Perhaps they go back and forth; at one time one being hesitant and then the next time the other.

  • Finwe will be forgiven by the audience IF we show that there was a genuine grieving process and ALSO a slight bit of ambiguity concerning Miriel’s decision. Yes, she was exhausted but what else was going on there for such a fatalistic decision. Perhaps we build a bit of confusion for the audience which leads to more sympathy for Finwe. Now I’m NOT advocating we just blatantly dump on Miriel. However, she is a character that we will, for all intents and purposes, not see again. If we hint at her decision not being the “fairest” of all decisions it won’t really hurt.

  • Also, with this type of “blameless” Indis, it only plays into Feanor seeding more and more resentment in his heart – there’s really nothing more frustrating than trying to pin fault on a faultless person LOL.
 
Good.

So, in this episode, we will have to show first (1) the 'great and glad' love of Finwë and Míriel, then (2) how Míriel's pregnancy gradually breaks her down, consuming her energy, and finally (3) how the birth of Fëanor has a really devestating impact on her. By the end of this process, we should understand her wanting to give up - but also understand the way this decision shocks Finwë and Fëanor.
 
Haakon said:

  1. [Círdan] has no problem choosing his purpose or accepting it, but some of the consequences of his accepting it causes him considerable pain. This cost also makes his faith prominent.
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How do you feel about the idea of one source of that pain being that the girl he had his eye on decides to depart with Olwë and go to Valinor? And possibly even becomes Olwë's wife?

This idea was brought up in Sunday's script discussion, and I wanted to float that here to see what others think of a 'lost love' idea for Círdan. Whether or not he marries later is also an open question.
 
Welcome, Shawn! No need to apologize - your input is most welcome here. For a collaborative project to work, we need...collaborators. Welcome to the team :)

The common thing that can link Indis and Finwë as he grieves the death of Míriel is if she also has experienced loss. No one dies in Valinor, of course (besides Míriel), but the Journey had some perils and at Cuiviénen there was the Hunter. There are certainly elves who have lost family members, and I think we should have Indis be someone who has lost her mother. This way, she is first responding to Finwë in a 'I know how difficult this can be' way, just offering to be a sympathetic listener, and then...she grows to genuinely care for him.

Indis is related to Ingwë. In one version of the story, Tolkien decided she was his sister; in another, she is his niece - the daughter of his sister. If Ingwë's sister died, Ingwë could have taken on the responsibility of raising the young Indis. Sister-daughter is an important relationship in this story, so why not start that now?

So, if Finwë visits Ingwë to take care of some official/kingly business some time after the death of Míriel, Indis can be there and they can talk. Not even alone; Ingwë is right there, so clearly nothing improper is going on. But it can be the beginning of a common experience, hey, we share this thing that no one around us understands.


The added irony, of course, is that Indis *thinks* she understands what Fëanor is going through, but he's in full-out teenage 'no one understands me!' mode and rejects all her attempts at outreach.
 
I think that could work: both Feanor's issues of Indis "replacing his mother"
and the earlier suggestion of Indis not getting the young genius and coming across as patronizing: after all, Indis isn't Noldo. She's not necessarily going to understand the drive or wonder of creating material things.

If we want to nuance this, we could have her be genuinely impressed/excited about some of his inventions (I'm thinking the alphabet in particular) because she sees the use/beauty of them, but not "get" some of his later ones. This could correspondence, accidentally, with the births of her own children, leading Feanor to assume that she just doesn't care about him any more, though we could show that not to be the case.

However, I caution against originating all of Feanor's issues with Indis. We seem to be operating under the impression that his issues with his brothers are displacement, as it were, of his issues with Indis. I think we should consider having his relationship with Indis cool but respectful, but his relationships with his brothers growing ever more fraught as they age: because they don't get him, either, and he thinks they don't respect him; or because they openly challenge him; or even because they have skills, perhaps with words, he's envious of.*

*On this last note, I know Feanor becomes quite a skilled speaker. But I've always associated the Vanyar with beautiful speech, probably because they're the poets. Might that be something Indis teaches Feanor? She could teach him poetry and word-play -- he could even invent the runes for her, as a present, to record her poems -- and we seem them doing this less and less as her children are born and age.

In all, I'm just hesistant to simply do the "he never liked his stepmother" trope. I don't think it feels believable in today's world, when so many people have step-parents, often with very good relationships.

(Edited to expand and clarify)
 
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Now, this is not supported by the text, but given Míriel's later connection to Vairë, what if she gets a moment of foresight during the birthing process.

Viewers know that giving birth is exhausting and painful, and so showing Míriel screaming in pain and exhaustion may not do the trick. If we intercut the birth with a vision of fire and war, including have the "midwife" character... (who, crazy idea time, could even _be_ Indis, switch the state visit from Finwë visiting Ingwë to the reverse to explain her presence) Have the midwife character say something to the effect of, "I've never seen anything like this...."

To help indicate that the vision is having a physical effect...
 
MithLuin said:
How do you feel about the idea of one source of that pain being that the girl he had his eye on decides to depart with Olwë and go to Valinor? And possibly even becomes Olwë's wife?

This idea was brought up in Sunday's script discussion, and I wanted to float that here to see what others think of a 'lost love' idea for Círdan. Whether or not he marries later is also an open question.
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I understand the desire to make things personal or to have problems represented in relationships, but I kind of think this would take away the focus from the pain of not being given the chance to go to Valinor (or have that chance taken away). The dream of going to Valinor must be made clear, so we need to show it somehow. But if it's connected to joining a special someone there, that relationship will kind of take over the dream of Valinor itself, which would be a pity in Círdan's case.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Now, this is not supported by the text, but given Míriel's later connection to Vairë, what if she gets a moment of foresight during the birthing process.

Viewers know that giving birth is exhausting and painful, and so showing Míriel screaming in pain and exhaustion may not do the trick. If we intercut the birth with a vision of fire and war, including have the "midwife" character... (who, crazy idea time, could even _be_ Indis, switch the state visit from Finwë visiting Ingwë to the reverse to explain her presence) Have the midwife character say something to the effect of, "I've never seen anything like this...."

To help indicate that the vision is having a physical effect...
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As I understand the text in PubSil, it's not just the birth that breaks her. It's the whole pregnancy. But I guess she could have some kind of vision at the climax of the birth.

But no I don't think Indis should be midwife. (Sorry, Nick.. :))
 
Haakon said:
But no I don't think Indis should be midwife. (Sorry, Nick.. :))
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Yeah, that was a bit of a reach that swirled through my brain while I was typing. And yes, I agree that the whole pregnancy will be part of it, but I do think there will need to be some additional punch to convey it on screen. In media, pregnancy and delivery are already portrayed (and rightly so, to a point) as intensely arduous and painful, so at best, the audience might think she's overselling it a bit.
 
MithLuin I like your idea about both of them sharing the experience of loss. I didn't specifically give it thought until you pointed it out but the experience of "loss of life" would be very foreign to almost all the elves ... at least by this time. This shared experience is a perfect way for them to begin a friendship (later a relationship) while both keeping the proper motives.

I'm cautious about Feanor ever really warming up to Indis b/c it seems like for their culture a "stepmother" would be extremely odd. He seems to proud and to fond of his mothers memory to ever give her a chance ... of course that's just the way I've always pictured the situation.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Yeah, that was a bit of a reach that swirled through my brain while I was typing. And yes, I agree that the whole pregnancy will be part of it, but I do think there will need to be some additional punch to convey it on screen. In media, pregnancy and delivery are already portrayed (and rightly so, to a point) as intensely arduous and painful, so at best, the audience might think she's overselling it a bit.
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I agree that we need to give the birth scene additional punch. But we can do a lot with the pregnancy. Míriel talking about an inner fire consuming her, midwives/non-Indis characters commenting on how different this pregnancy is compared to others, and so on. Will she even make it until the birth? Or will she die before?
 
Shawn Mitchell said:
MithLuin I like your idea about both of them sharing the experience of loss. I didn't specifically give it thought until you pointed it out but the experience of "loss of life" would be very foreign to almost all the elves ... at least by this time. This shared experience is a perfect way for them to begin a friendship (later a relationship) while both keeping the proper motives.

I'm cautious about Feanor ever really warming up to Indis b/c it seems like for their culture a "stepmother" would be extremely odd. He seems to proud and to fond of his mothers memory to ever give her a chance ... of course that's just the way I've always pictured the situation.
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In universe, I agree, as their situation is completely unique it's hard to imagine them ever truly being comfortable with each other and their relationship. However, if we boil everything down to that, it'll look like a bad episode of Law&Order to the modern audience. I'm trying to reach for a balance, in which Feanor and Indis have an awkward relationship, but not openly hostile, with perhaps moments where it seems that they really could grow to care for each other. Those moments should be early on, and derailed quickly (but unknowingly, at least to them) when she becomes pregnant.

In part, I think the uniqueness of the situation is more complicated than we've acknowledge: Feanor's not necessarily going to have a negative opinion of a step-mother, he's going to have none. His father's appeal to remarry should come as much a shock to him as anyone else. He might have quite liked Indis as his father's friend before hand, further complicating his feelings.
 
Haakon said:
I agree that we need to give the birth scene additional punch. But we can do a lot with the pregnancy. Míriel talking about an inner fire consuming her, midwives/non-Indis characters commenting on how different this pregnancy is compared to others, and so on. Will she even make it until the birth? Or will she die before?
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Oooh... should we have Feanor "from his mother's womb untimely ripped?" If she gave up before the birth, that would help justify Finwe's anger.*

*if we do this carefully, and emphasis this isn't at all the same thing as a woman dying in childbirth.
 
Oh I wasn't really asking those questions, they were meant as questions Finwë might ask.

(Edit: But I'm not totally against the idea)
 
Right, especially as we have already kinda established that we see the three together in the light of the trees.

Actually, come to think of it, she might be extremely weak after the delivery of Feanor, possibly dying. What if Finwe takes her to the trees in hopes that their light might heal her? We see the image in the tapestry from Episode 2, and she passes. Interestingly, if any of the Valar are present, Finwe could cry out to them for help to save her, but they are powerless to do so. It would also set up why Finwe doesn't join Feanor when he is invited to the festival that takes place before the Darkening. He is done with the Valar forever. First they "refused" to save his wife, and then they banish his firstborn son over what might seem to him to be a harmless fit of temper.
 
Marielle said:
In universe, I agree, as their situation is completely unique it's hard to imagine them ever truly being comfortable with each other and their relationship. However, if we boil everything down to that, it'll look like a bad episode of Law&Order to the modern audience. I'm trying to reach for a balance, in which Feanor and Indis have an awkward relationship, but not openly hostile, with perhaps moments where it seems that they really could grow to care for each other. Those moments should be early on, and derailed quickly (but unknowingly, at least to them) when she becomes pregnant.

In part, I think the uniqueness of the situation is more complicated than we've acknowledge: Feanor's not necessarily going to have a negative opinion of a step-mother, he's going to have none. His father's appeal to remarry should come as much a shock to him as anyone else. He might have quite liked Indis as his father's friend before hand, further complicating his feelings.
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Of course you're correct; it's probably smart to try and strike a balance ... I was forgetting the fact that this will have to be adapted for a modern audience.

On the topic of his opinion of her BEFORE the marriage: I agree there should be shock from the vast majority but surely Feanor would have been aware of this "new woman" in his dad's life? I think this would have to be dealt with carefully b/c Feanor doesn't seem the type to "kinda" dislike or like anyone. Seems like once he's made an opinion (thought out or not) he goes for broke. I think it's important to remain true to the "fire" inside Feanor considering the crazy, over the top, decisions and actions he takes later on. This guy makes the kind of bad decisions thoughtful and considerate people don't tend to make. I think its fitting if the audience believes he is a bit unfair and rash once he's decided upon some course of action ... Indis will most likely come off blameless, as she should.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Right, especially as we have already kinda established that we see the three together in the light of the trees.

Actually, come to think of it, she might be extremely weak after the delivery of Feanor, possibly dying. What if Finwe takes her to the trees in hopes that their light might heal her? We see the image in the tapestry from Episode 2, and she passes. Interestingly, if any of the Valar are present, Finwe could cry out to them for help to save her, but they are powerless to do so. It would also set up why Finwe doesn't join Feanor when he is invited to the festival that takes place before the Darkening. He is done with the Valar forever. First they "refused" to save his wife, and then they banish his firstborn son over what might seem to him to be a harmless fit of temper.
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This could work. It makes Finwe and Feanor similar; they're both angry, they just take it out on different people. Neither one wants to be angry at Miriel, so Finwe blames the Valar and Feanor, slowly, begins to displace that anger on Indis* and his siblings, adding to the other issues he genuinely has with them.

*edited as I accidently put Miriel's name here
 
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