Session 2.10 for S2E06

Technically, one can cross the ocean in the papyrus boats of the Egyptians. But, you have to *want* to...also, you need to develop star-based navigation, not relying on sight of the shore to know where you are. This is easier in the northern hemisphere (with the fixed North star), but the Polynesians obviously figured it out as well in the southern hemisphere without that.

See the Kon-Tiki expedition on how little is needed (boat-building technology wise) to sail across an ocean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl
(AKA, if you are Thor Heyerdahl, you can sail anywhere in the world on a raft)
 
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Yes, Heyerdahl also used a raft to get from Africa to South America...

MithLuin said:
But, you have to *want* to
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Exactly. I think that the Sindar, beginning with Elwë, give up the journey. Elwë finds his purpose and establishes his kingdom in Beleriand, and his people, who used to follow him, stay loyal. 'If Elwë, who more than anyone wanted to go to Valinor, has changed his mind, why should we be persistant about it?'

But Círdan somehow keeps the dream alive - not that he thinks about going to Valinor himself, at least not for a very long time. He keeps the connection to Valinor more alive than others do.
 
One thing that you have to remember re: navigation, there is one beacon that the Elves can navigate by: the light of the Two Trees.

I think that it all goes back to the whole concept of 'purpose'. The Sindar, through Elwe, have now found a purpose on Middle Earth and so are content to stay there. That's not to say that there aren't those Sindar who look longingly over the see to the light, but they know that they 'belong' in Beleriand.

As for Cirdan, I like what someone wrote on another thread: Cirdan receives a vision that he is to build Vingilot and, perhaps, part of that vision is that it will make a journey to Valinor that will make all other such journeys possible for the Elves. He doesn't know that there will be the Ban, just that after Vingilot makes its journey, then his purpose is to help the Elves go to Valinor.
 
I think it's important that:
  1. Círdan's purpose is somewhat clouded and unclear, although it is perfectly clear that he has a purpose which demands that he stays by the coasts of Middle-earth for a time. This makes his faith prominent.
  2. He has no problem choosing his purpose or accepting it, but some of the consequences of his accepting it causes him considerable pain. This cost also makes his faith prominent.
 
I think this could work in a really cool visual way. As Cirdan first sees the sea he has a vision, but its a very hazy and indistinct vision of what the audience will eventually discover to be Vingilot. Osse comes to him and tells him some of his destiny, but he can tell that Cirdan is preoccupied. He asks Cirdan what is happening and Cirdan replies (and I think this is from Dune, but its a cool way to say it), "I've had a waking dream of a thing that I know not what."

Cirdan describes what he saw, but the memory is fading fast, so he just gets the basic of boat design. Osse tells Cirdan that if he builds what he has seen, then the Elves will eventually be able to travel the waters of the sea. We would need to establish that, previously, the Elves used 'boats' that were more or less rafts that work great in the calm waters of Cuivienen, not so much on fast moving rivers and the sea, so this is a radical upgrade in design. Thus, the birth of Cirdan the Shipwright as he works from that first basic design that he drew on the sand in front of Osse and constantly works toward the realization of the hazy vision he had.

But it is these initial designs that the Teleri take with them as they are ferried across the sea and, through their own shipwrights, become the Swan Ships of the Teleri. Throughout the First Age, we can see Cirdan constantly fiddling with the design and working on models, even as the world descends into chaos and savagery.
 
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Haakon said:
Ossë anchors Tol Eressëa, and says to the Teleri (who were eagerly looking forward to seeing Valinor) that he don't want to leave them, if he lets them go further he won't be able to see them very much, he says he's sorry but he promises to teach them how to build ships. Olwë accepts this but is concerned for his kin who are left behind.
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If I remember correctly in the published Silmarillion the Teleri hear Ossë's song and they bid Ulmo to stop the island. So, in our interpretation Ossë's song is about his wish for the Teleri to stay within his reach. But why that? Isn't Ossë allowed to go close to the shores of Aman? Is this part of his punishment from his rebellion earlier?
 
PubSil: Ulmo drives the Ferry Island. Ossë calls out and the Telri beg Ulmo to stop the Island.
'Now Ossë followed after the host of Olwë, and when they were come to the Bay of Eldamar (which is Elvenhome) he called to them; and they knew his voice, and begged Ulmo to stay their voyage. And Ulmo granted their request, and at his bidding Ossë made fast the island and rooted it to the foundations of the sea. Ulmo did this the more readily, for he understood the hearts of the Teleri, and in the council of the Valar he had spoken against the summons, thinking that it were better for the Quendi to remain in Middle-earth. The Valar were little pleased to learn what he had done; and Finwë grieved when the Teleri came not, and yet more when he learned that Elwë was forsaken, and knew that he should not see him again, unless it were in the halls of Mandos. But the island was not moved again, and stood there alone in the Bay of Eldamar; and it was called Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle. There the Teleri abode as they wished under the stars of heaven, and yet within the sight of Aman and the deathless shore; and by that long sojourn apart in the Lonely Isle wa caused the sunset img of their speech from that of the Vanyar and the Noldor.'

The text doesn't explain why Ossë calls out to the Teleri. But perhaps it was because he is more bound to the shores of ME.
 
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Haakon, that was always my sense reading the published Silmarillion. But I love Ren's idea that it's a limitation caused by his earlier rebellion. Ulmo is exactly the sort of person who would say "welcome back, but there has to be some consequences for your actions." It might even have a time limit that could be a prophecy "you shall not return to the shores of Aman until your waters cradle a star" or something like that.
 
I like the idea of foreshadowing Earendil, but I think we have to be really careful. If we push too hard that Earendil is the endgame for all that's happening, are we tapdancing into the area of pre-destination vs. free will? I think that it important that we find some way to establish that there were other potential destinies at work as well. Just as Harry Potter became the Chosen One over Neville Longbottom simply because Voldemort chose to believe it was the Potters' child over the Longbottom's, Earendil came about because of a series of choices.

It would be interesting to show other potential destinies that were thwarted because of a choice here or there. And the viewer who is just engaging in the Silmarillion for the first time would be like "Oh, is it Fingolfin who beats Morgoth?" and wham. And then, "is it Finrod?" and wham. And "It must be Tuor! Look, he's made it to Valinor!" but no. So the eventual success of Earendil, against all odds (and with the empowering move of a female character in Elwing's flight) becomes a truly uplifting moment.
 
I agree that what-could-have-been is important to our storytelling. I was quite pleased at the 'potential' destiny of Olwë that the Hosts came up with in the most recent session - that he is meant to be the leader of the mariners in Valinor, who will eventually lead the elves back to Middle Earth in a positive way....only to have this destiny thwarted when Fëanor quarrels with him and steals the ships. The final expedition to Middle Earth at the end of the First Age for the War of Wrath does indeed involve Teleri mariners...but they refuse to set foot on Middle Earth or assist in the war in any way because of Fëanor's deeds. There, we see consequences ruining Ulmo's good plans.

As for a 'Who could have been the mariner before Eärendil?' I think we have limited options. Turgon was the one *trying* to send ships to Valinor, and working with Círdan to make it happen. It was only after the silmaril was added to the mix that a mariner got through, though, which has more than a touch of destiny to it. But still, I think that all of Turgon's failed attempts (which only Voronwë survives) should be the precursor of Eärendil (who does not exist in a vacuum). When Turgon refuses to heed Ulmo's warning through Tuor, we see that he's not going to be able to personally succeed.
 
Ray Burns said:
I like the idea of foreshadowing Earendil, but I think we have to be really careful. If we push too hard that Earendil is the endgame for all that's happening, are we tapdancing into the area of pre-destination vs. free will?
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I certainly didn't mean to imply we should spell it all out. But rather, that little hints that only completely make sense in hindsight should pepper the series. As MithLuin said, there is a healthy dose of fate in Earendil's voyage, and we shouldn't avoid that. But we also want to show that his journey became both necessary and possible because of his and others' free choices.
 
So... perhaps we should discuss the Valinor stories a bit more? Do you agree that it would be good to include the second wedding of Finwë and end there - or should we end earlier? How much of young Fëanor can we include? A reaction to the loss of his mother by diving into a creative frenzy? ...
 
The second wedding of Finwë, I think, should wait until the next episode. If his first wife dies in this episode, and he is married by the end, he's a heartless creep. I suppose you could explain it as a marriage of convenience, but I don't think that's the look we want.

Young Fëanor, we can do a lot with. If he is relatively young when his mother dies, he may not really understand what is happening. I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but it would be interesting to see him talking to her sleeping body in Lorien. It will add to the pathos. He can even do this a few times over the course of the season.
 
I agree. We want to establish a sort of status-quo for Feanor before his father's remarriage. If Indis has been part of his life almost from the very beginning, his issues will look even more petty.

And I also concur that we want to show Finwe as sincerely mourning his wife, before trying to find happiness with Indis. Eyebrows should be raised by this remarriage (isn't it the only example we're given of elves remarrying?) but I agree with Nick: "marriage of convenience" isn't really the look we're going for. I don't have the text in front of me, but doesn't the narrator make a comment about how things might have been different if Finwe was "content" with life with Feanor? That can't mean Finwe didn't like his son, given what happens later, but rather implies that Finwe needs -- or thinks he needs -- something that a son can't provide.
 
Elves are strictly FORBIDDEN to remarry. Being immortal, their spouse exists until the end of Arda, so when you choose someone, you do so not only 'for life' but 'until the end of time.'

What Finwë starts out doing is pestering Mandos about when his wife is going to come back. When Míriel says 'never', Finwë is basically....wait a minute, I thought.....

And the Valar have a big debate in which they try to figure out what to do [we will not be showing this in our series] and a very 'legal' decision is reached, where, if Míriel promises to never be embodied again [EVER], then Finwë would be free to choose another wife. The statute of Finwë and Míriel issued by the Valar after lengthy debate and [I think] a year long waiting period allows the exception based on Míriel's promise.

It is heavily implied that Míriel later regrets her promise - that while she had zero desire to be re-embodied at the time, as time goes on and her spirit is healed, she feels differently about things. So, the 'if Finwë had been content....' line implies firstly that if he had just waited [a really, really long time], then eventually he and Míriel would have been reunited. Maybe.

When Finwë petitioned the Valar for permission to remarry, one of the reasons given (beyond, 'I miss my wife') was that he desired to have more children. Finwë and Indis have 2-5 children together (depending on which version of the story), and I would like to show them with 2 sons and 2 daughters. The 'not content' here definitely means that one son [Fëanor] wasn't enough for Finwë, and so Fëanor grows up as an only child of a dead mother whose father wants more children.


The relationship of Finwë and Indis is portrayed as love - he sees her in Valmar, with the light of the Trees in her hair, and is struck by her beauty. She had (apparently) always loved him, but he was already taken so she had just remained single since she couldn't have who she wanted. [Or something] I would not want to portray this as a marriage of convenience, or a 'political wedding' to unite the Noldor and the Vanyar. This is meant to be an opportunity for happiness, and the sour note (that turns to disaster) is not entirely Finwë's fault. In the end, Indis is left in Tirion when Finwë goes with the banished Fëanor to Formenos, and she lives as a widow in Valinor after the Darkening (while Finwë and Míriel are perhaps reunited in the Halls of Mandos).


I think the idea of a young Fëanor visiting the 'sleeping' body of his mother as a child is a good one. His father bringing him for these 'graveside visits' could be a good opportunity to show them both mourning. They can both talk to her as if she were there, giving updates on the family, and saying how they miss her, and Finwë can weep over her (maybe not with young Fëanor present). The beauty of the location contrasted with the grief should be quite poignant. (Everyone expects funerals to happen on rainy days, but of course in real life the weather does not match the mood.)

It would be possible to paint Indis as an evil stepmother, trying to erase the memory of Míriel and having a haughty 'Real Housewives' persona. But I would rather not. Indis and Fëanor will fail spectacularly to get along, and the failing should be on both sides, but....let's not make her a witch.
 
I really like the idea that Feanor begins creating his wonders, at first, to show Miriel, and then as almost a plea for Miriel to come back. As in, 'look, I created this alphabet to show how much I love and miss you, won't you please come back?' Perhaps not as blatant (because that becomes a little creepy as Feanor gets older), but at a subtextual level that maybe even Feanor doesn't realize.
 
I would be interested to have Fëanor at least perceive Indis as something of a "wicked stepmother' in a way that the audience will see as understandable, but unfair and tragic. Fëanor is young, and not willing to give Indis the benefit of the doubt.

She doesn't get him. He is a prodigy, brilliant at almost everything he touches, whereas she is closer to the norm (for Calaquendi). Her attempts to win him over might come across as patronizing.
 
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