Session 2.10 for S2E06

Phillip Menzies

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Staff member
Questions for the next session on Friday the 23rd of September 2016 are:
  1. What story are we going to tell? The episode will cover
    • the rooting of Tol Eressea
    • the Teleri building ships and arriving in Valinor
    • the emerging of Elwe
    • the beginning of the elves in Valinor
  2. What Valinorian stories are we going to tell?
    • Finwe's marriage/ the birth of Feanor/ the death of Miriel?
  3. Are we going to make a parallel between Tol Eresseea and Finwe?
  4. What do we want to do with Tol Eressea and what will be the relationship between Olwe's people and the island? Its significance being that it is "Elvenhome away from Home", originally exiled from Valinor and in an early version it becomes the island of England.
We also need contributions towards the Frame narrative on another thread http://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/frame-narrative.23/page-11#post-5161
 
What do we want to do with Tol Eressea and what will be the relationship between Olwe's people and the island? Its significance being that it is "Elvenhome away from Home", originally exiled from Valinor and in an early version it becomes the island of England.

I have two questions:

A) Are people sailing to the West from Middle-Earth, i.e. elves and ring bearers at the end of the 3rd age, actually sailing to Tol Eressea, before going to Valinor?
If yes, Tol Eressea would be or become THE PORT to Valinor.

B) Are we going to continue Silm Film after the 4th age into the Early Middle Ages and portray the story of Ælfwine? Maybe only in a frame story?
If yes, Tol Eressea should indeed be or become "Elvenhome" and at the end of all ends of all seasons could be transformed into modern England.
 
A) YES. Mortals cannot set foot in Valinor, as will be made abundantly clear when we tell the Numenor story. So, Bilbo and Frodo (and later Sam and Gimli) will be hanging out on Tol Eressea, not visiting Valinor proper. Unless someone feels that's a cheat and wants to change that, but....the significance/repercussions are pretty major. There is at least one version of the story where the returned Exiled Noldor (after the end of the 1st Age) also live on Tol Eressea rather than return to Tirion upon Túna in Valinor....but that's an aesthetic question rather than a fabric of reality question, and can be decided when we get to that point.

B) I think not. The transition from mythic/fantastic Middle Earth history to real world history seems to be beyond the scope of this project. It's a fairly large leap, and will likely come off badly. That does not mean we could not find a way to hint about this being England, but....I'd rather leave it as a tenuous suggestion at most.
 
A) YES. Mortals cannot set foot in Valinor, as will be made abundantly clear when we tell the Numenor story. So, Bilbo and Frodo (and later Sam and Gimli) will be hanging out on Tol Eressea, not visiting Valinor proper. Unless someone feels that's a cheat and wants to change that, but....the significance/repercussions are pretty major.

Changing that would be a bridge too far. The unfolding seasons really should emphasize the different Gift of men (and mortals writ large, so sorry Gimli, no Valinor for you). Part of showing that will be having the Valar confused and made a little uncomfortable by men, and having a man/hobbit walk around Valinor would visually undercut that. Elves go to Valinor because their home is with the Valar, but that is emphatically not the home of men.
 
2. What Valinorian stories are we going to tell?
  • Finwe's marriage/ the birth of Feanor/ the death of Miriel?
Finwë and Míriel are already married, I think, so the birth of Fëanor and subsequent death of Míriel needs to happen. It doesn't have to be immediate....Fëanor can be a toddler when they leave his mother in Lorien. Having him be old enough to say goodbye, and remember her....seems important.

The remarriage to Indis should happen later. Fëanor should be mostly grown - maybe teenager-y or so at the youngest. Finwë's 2nd marriage is almost definitely what pushes Fëanor out of the house, to spend his time wandering Valinor and learning everything he can from Mahtan. So, the marriage to Indis happens nearly the same time as Fëanor's marriage to Nerdanel. IF we can make that all happen in one episode, great, but I think that we should consider the content of this episode and the next to determine where that fits best.
 
Ossë roots Tol Eressëa, which perhaps isn't an action that is applauded by the Teleri at first. How do they react?
Then he returns to ME and gives the news of the rooting to Círdan, who will be distraught and upset. He says he and his people are forsaken. To soothe his pain, Ossë promises to teach him the art of shipbuilding. Círdan starts to see his purpose clearer.

When Elwe emerges, we have to show his reunion with those who have searched for him, as well as a reunion with Círdan and their mutual understanding that they're left behind. Elwë has found his purpose and will be content, while Círdan might still feel a bit torn even if he also has found his purpose.

In Valinor, we should see Finwë not content with the fact that he won't see Elwë ever again, and Olwe will find himself in a social position reflecting his geographical situation - he's not quite connected.
 
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Finwë and Míriel are already married, I think, so the birth of Fëanor and subsequent death of Míriel needs to happen. It doesn't have to be immediate....Fëanor can be a toddler when they leave his mother in Lorien. Having him be old enough to say goodbye, and remember her....seems important.

I always thought her retreat to Lorien happened almost immediately after giving birth... but I'm not going to go down with that ship. I actually think giving him some hazy memories, prone to idealization, of his mother is a good idea.

The idea of Finwe remarrying around the same time as Feanor marries... that's interesting. It poses the risk of making Indis look like a mid-life crisis trophy wife, but I like it for setting up his conflict with his brothers.

After all, the struggle is over, supposedly, "who daddy loves more." An adult son seeing his father set up a new family is a situation that's easy to sympathize with, as well as the older child who sees more and more of their parent's time taken up in caring for the younger siblings. Rationally, it's understandable from Finwe's PoV, but Feanor's anger will be emotionally understandable to the audience.
 
Here's a quick look at the Timeline (Tolkien's, not ours).

Years of the Trees
1 The Two Trees are created
1000 Varda begins to make the great constellations​
Episode 1
1050 Elves awaken
1085 Oromë meets the Elves
1090 Valar attack Morgoth
1099 Breaking of Utumno
1100 Binding of Melkor​
Episode 2
1101 Valar summon the Quendi to Valinor
1102 Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë brought to Valinor​
Episode 3
1104 Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë return to Cuiviénen
1105 Elves set out on the Great Journey​
Episode 4
1115 Nandor abandon the March
1125 Vanyar and Noldor reach Beleriand
1128 Teleri reach Beleriand
1130 Elwë meets Melian
1132 Vanyar and Noldor leave Middle-earth​
Episode 5
1133 Vanyar and Noldor reach Valinor
1140 Tirion completed. Ingwë leaves Tirion
1150 Olwë and other Teleri leave Middle-earth​
Episode 6
1151 Grounding of Tol Eressëa
1152 Elwë returns to the Sindar
1161 Teleri reach Valinor
1165 The last Vanyar leave Tirion
1169 Birth of Fëanor
1170 Death of Míriel
1185 Marriage of Finwë and Indis

1190 Birth of Fingolfin
1200 Birth of Lúthien
1230 Birth of Finarfin
1250 Dwarves enter Beleriand. Fëanor creates a new alphabet for the Elves.
1280 Marriage of Finarfin and Eärwen
1300 Thingol builds Menegroth. Daeron invents the Runes. Birth of Turgon and of Finrod.
1330 Orcs enter Beleriand
1350 Nandor enter Beleriand
1362 Births of Aredhel and of Galadriel
1400 Melkor released
1449 Fëanor begins work on the Silmarils
1450 Fëanor completes the Silmarils
1490 Banishment of Fëanor
1492 Melkor visits Formenos
1495 Darkening of Valinor. Death of Finwë and flight of the Noldor. First Kinslaying.
1496 Doom of Mandos. Finarfin turns back.
1497 Morgoth attacks Beleriand. Fëanor reaches Middle-earth and burns the ships. Death of Fëanor. Capture of Maedhros.
1498 Maedhros sent to Thangorodrim
1500 Rising of the Moon and the Sun. Hiding of Valinor. Fingolfin reaches Middle-earth.

(source: http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/reference/references/chronology-of-the-silmarillion.php )​

Keep in mind that a Year of the Trees is about 10 years of the Sun. So, since Míriel's death comes in the 'year' after Fëanor was born, he could be quite young, but was probably not meant to be an infant. He could be a 10 year old child, even. We can of course decide what best fits the story rather than holding to a rigid use of these Timelines...I just consider that a good starting point, and this is my justification for Míriel suffering a lingering post-partum depression rather than an instant death-in-childbirth scenario.
 
A thought to ponder moving forward...

If we establish that Tol Eressea serves as the port of entry to the Uttermost West, we should also show that the Teleri consider Tol Eressea as their home. As the age progresses, the Teleri ships travel to and fro from Valinor but their home port is always Tol Eressea. Eventually, there are those Teleri who long to be closer to the light of the trees, the presence of the Valar and the company of their kin the Vanyar and the Noldor. (do we show that while some of the Vanyar and Noldor do visit Tol Eressea, they do not like the experience because it feels too much like leaving Valinor, which becomes especially ironic consider what happens later?) For those Teleri, the port of Alqualonde is built.

When the Kinslaying occurs, the main reasons why the Teleri built Alqualonde have been abrogated in rapid succession: the light of the Trees has dimmed and vanished forever, the Valar have seemingly forsaken them, and their kin have murdered them. It would explain why, much later, when Earendil walks through Alqualonde to deliver his message that he finds it virtually empty. The Teleri have all removed to Tol Eressea and leave nothing but a small contingent on Valinor (the Teleri that Elwing finds and speaks with).
 
do we show that while some of the Vanyar and Noldor do visit Tol Eressea, they do not like the experience because it feels too much like leaving Valinor,
I think we should show Finwë visiting Tol Eressëa and that he doesn't care for it. He could say 'We can help you build a city on the shore'.
 
Ossë anchors Tol Eressëa, and says to the Teleri (who were eagerly looking forward to seeing Valinor) that he doesn't want to leave them, if he lets them go further he won't be able to see them very much, he says he's sorry but he promises to teach them how to build ships. Olwë accepts this but is concerned for his kin who are left behind.
Finwë visits Tol Eressëa and finds out that Elwë is lost. He is saddened by this. He doesn't care much for the island and offers to help the Teleri build a city on the shore.
Ossë returns to Middle-earth and breaks the news about the anchoring of Tol Eressëa to Nowë. This makes Nowë upset and calls himself and his people forsaken. He demands to be taught the art of shipbuilding. Ossë agrees.
Elwë returns. He meets Beleg and Círdan who explains the situation. Elwë, who is changed by the years in trance, is content and proclaims that their destinies are here in Middle-earth. They will never be a people of the light. Neither will they be a people of the Dark, for they moved to the light and came a long way looking for it. They will be a people of the grey - the Sindar.
After this, we can go to Valinor and the birth of Fëanor, the fading of Míriel (which should be a process paralleled by child genius Fëanor), her death and (depending on how much time things take) the story of Finwë and Indis. And perhaps the marriage itself. It would be a good ending if we can squeeze it in.
 
I think there is a strong implication that no one can travel between Tol Eressea and Valinor until they invent ships. In other words, the island may be anchored within sight of the shores of Valinor, but it's not close enough to swim the distance or trust a small boat to get you across. It's (ahem) at least as far away from Valinor as England is from France...maybe a good deal further out.

Ossë will be involved in the Teleri and Falathrim developing their sea-going skills at roughly the same time, but the elves of Alqualondë will have the best ships - the skill develops more rapidly in Valinor for whatever reason (do they *gasp* have a better shipwright than Círdan?!)
 
I think there is a strong implication that no one can travel between Tol Eressea and Valinor until they invent ships. In other words, the island may be anchored within sight of the shores of Valinor, but it's not close enough to swim the distance or trust a small boat to get you across. It's (ahem) at least as far away from Valinor as England is from France...maybe a good deal further out.

Ossë will be involved in the Teleri and Falathrim developing their sea-going skills at roughly the same time, but the elves of Alqualondë will have the best ships - the skill develops more rapidly in Valinor for whatever reason (do they *gasp* have a better shipwright than Círdan?!)
Yes, so between my comments about Ossë teaching the Teleri to build ships and 'Finwë visits Tol Eressëa', the Teleri actually learns how to do it and brings Finwë over to the island to show him their beautiful havens. Alqualondë is built after that - I guess around the time when Fëanor is born and Míriel weakens.
 
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Keep in mind that Ossë teaching these groups shipbuilding is in direct service of Ulmo's Greater Plan (to eventually allow two-way travel between Valinor and Middle Earth, thanks to Olwë and Círdan). Only the Teleri of Alqualondë have ocean-going vessels by the end of Season 2, though......
 
I feel that the Falathrim will have to develop ship-building on their own, which explains their comparative slowness. Maybe by the end of Season 2, they have galley style vessels that can go up and down the coast with short hops, but nothing that could take on the high seas. Perhaps the northern route is too dangerous with icebergs, the sheer cold, and possibly some dangerous sea monsters.
 
We need to make Círdan The Shipwright this season. If only for the simple reason that we can't let one of the most prominent elves walk around unnamed. Which means that he needs to start building ships pretty much right away. (But of course, the Teleti of Tol Eressëa will build more technically advanced ships)

I think that the process of establishing Círdan as shipwright could be done through a deal between Círdan and Ossë even though it is part of Ulmo's plan. Ulmo sent Círdan a dream about his purpose to begin with. The message of the dream could be a bit obscure but the dream would still work on Círdan.
 
I agree that we can establish Cirdan as the shipwright, but they don't need to have full-on ocean-going vessels.

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Hm. The type of ships that were used by the vikings (I'm no expert but that's what the lower of your examples look to me Nicholas) took them across the Atlantic Ocean.
I agree that the elves of Beleriand should build rather simple ships. But somehow I don't think that's their problem.
Perhaps we should consider the difficulties in crossing the ocean to Valinor are more a question of weather and wave than of badly built boats?
 
Perhaps we should consider the difficulties in crossing the ocean to Valinor are more a question of weather and wave than of badly built boats?

Maybe we can emphasis that, rather than not being able to go to Valinor, the elves of Beleriand just don't. Each elf left on the mainland chose, at one point or another, to stay. Their first thought, upon inventing ships, is not going to be "yay! a way to Valinor!" but rather, "wow, a new way to explore this beautiful world!" We could indicate the establishments of exploration routes, and maybe trade (though that might be too materialistic for this early phase). Show them using this new technology to enhance their experience of and love for Arda.
 
We need to make Círdan The Shipwright this season. If only for the simple reason that we can't let one of the most prominent elves walk around unnamed. Which means that he needs to start building ships pretty much right away. (But of course, the Teleti of Tol Eressëa will build more technically advanced ships)

I think that the process of establishing Círdan as shipwright could be done through a deal between Círdan and Ossë even though it is part of Ulmo's plan. Ulmo sent Círdan a dream about his purpose to begin with. The message of the dream could be a bit obscure but the dream would still work on Círdan.

If he sees Eärendil's ship Vingelot in that dream, it will go a long way to explaining his lifelong interest in shipbuilding.....
 
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