Session 2.12 for S2E08

Ok, so with no elves at the trial, I have to say that we have no plot other than the trial itself, which will have to extend to the end of the episode. There can be the beginnings of conflict between Feanor and his half-brothers, but I don't think that's strong enough to be our A Plot. Ray's idea has some merit, but the conflict there is, "Do we trust the Valar, do we not trust the Valar?", which would be easy to lose sight of." Either way, we either need the trial go all the way through the episode, or we need Melkor to begin his Noldor Outreach Initiative Strategy (NOIS) if we are going to have a continuous plot through the episode.
 
If only we had someone who is Melkor's stooge in Valinor who could be talking to the Elves and starting the questions in their heads. Not really the NOIS yet, but a teaser trailer for NOIS.
 
I noticed they spent basically no time at all discussing the idea of a 'probationary' period where Melkor is confined to Valmar. We can certainly use that for structural purposes, and let them veto it later if it's unpalatable.
 
MithLuin said:
I noticed they spent basically no time at all discussing the idea of a 'probationary' period where Melkor is confined to Valmar. We can certainly use that for structural purposes, and let them veto it later if it's unpalatable.
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I know, I tried to bring it up. It's certainly necessary- especially if you want some tension in the episode after an early climax with the trial.
 
Yeah. I think a probationary period is essential: otherwise, when Melkor is revealed to be evil, why didn't he go back to M.E.? I also suspect more of the Valar would be convinced to give him a shot if they knew they could keep an eye on him.
 
I think the time compression issue is a driving factor. The rush to get to a certain point in a certain number of episodes is meaning that some things are being sacrificed to the goddess of expediency. I think that assuming that there was a probationary period but not make it a major point of emphasis would be the way to go. That way, it can be brought up at some point without having to go back and try to retcon it in.
 
Ray Burns said:
I think the time compression issue is a driving factor. The rush to get to a certain point in a certain number of episodes is meaning that some things are being sacrificed to the goddess of expediency. I think that assuming that there was a probationary period but not make it a major point of emphasis would be the way to go. That way, it can be brought up at some point without having to go back and try to retcon it in.
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I'm not sure what is being sacrificed for expediency. The only thing that was sacrificed in this episode was the presence of the elves at the trial, and that seems to be a creative difference with Tolkien rather than an attempt to truncate anything.

However, as to assuming a probationary period but not make it a major point of emphasis, we can't do that without having the trial end at the end of the episode. Otherwise, we have zero plot for the second half of the episode. Is your suggestion to keep the trial going, Ray?
 
Nick, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you arguing the probationary period only works if we have the Trial take the whole episode? If so, why?
 
No, what I'm saying is that you either must have a probationary period where the elves' reaction to the whole event is the story, or the trial must be ongoing through to the end of the episode. You can't just switch conflicts in mid-stream.
 
And if the elves are our main focus, not having them witness the trial as they do in the text seems to me to weaken the force of the conflict.
 
My preference is for the Trial to take up the first Act (so, 1/4 of the way through), and for the rest of the episode to be more elf-centric, with the story of Melkor gaining trust being the Valar storyline. That way, it will seem cohesive, and not like we switched plots at the midpoint of the episode from all-Valar to all-Elves, but rather can weave both storylines together.

That way, the 'trial' isn't limited to a bunch of people sitting around talking, but we can see what actions Melkor takes to make his point, and how the opinions of (some) of the Valar change from the moment he was released until after they see his behavior. I think that having the Trial last the entire episode constrains us not to let the Valar do anything accept sit in judgment throughout this episode, with us bouncing back and forth between elf storylines and that. It seems....a waste of an episode to shackle the Valar to their thrones in the Ring of Doom like that. I'd rather keep the spirit of a trial by having Melkor on 'trial' throughout the episode, and only be granted wider freedom at the end of the episode as the resolution of that issue...but not a whole episode debate about whether or not to give him a chance.

Ray, the compression is in the original text. How we choose to tell the story is an open question, but we are certainly not constrained to leave things out or gloss over them. We have an hour of television to set up whatever we want to see with the release of Melkor. In the text, the elves are sitting at the feet of the Valar when Melkor sees them and hates them (but decides to hide that and dissemble instead). He is constrained to Valmar, but a sentence later he has free rein of Valinor. We're taking a handful of sentences and making it the plot for a full hour of drama. We don't need to be expedient there. We just need to figure out our goals and make the appropriate choices.
 
My only concern with having the trial take up the first quarter of the episode (which I believe is the way to go) is that we are going to need to do a good job of setting up how this impacts the elves. If they are not there, how do they react to that. If they are there, how to they react to that. We need to keep them in focus if they are the source of our conflict.
 
I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I was watching a webcam from Kīlauea Volcano when a rockfall triggered an explosion, so I got distracted when I was typing. What I was trying to say was that there is a lot that we are going to have to try to fit into the next few episodes and, for expediencies sake, we may need to compress some of the storylines to allow other storylines to come forth. I actually agree that the trial take the first Act and maybe a fraction of the second Act. My issue was that we shouldn't have an abrupt transition from the Trial storyline into the Elves in Valinor storyline. That's why I wanted some dialogue during the trial that shows that the elves were aware something was going on, but not quite sure what it was. And as the trial concludes and Melkor is released, we see him catch his first sight of Elves in Valinor (since he has seen them before under much different circumstances) and his immediately masked hate.

And as we start developing our expanding cast of characters, the Melkor storyline slides to the B story so we just get glimpses of what he is doing, initially in Valmar and then in Valinor as a whole as his probation is loosened. Mayhaps that is how we bring in Mairon for his cameo, he mentions to Tevildo that Melkor is now free from his chains and, while at first limited in his movements, is now free to move throughout Valinor.

Sorry I got distracted, but seeing the lava shoot up was really cool.
 
I'm not sure how Mairon would be aware of what is happening in Aman here, as we have established no method of communication for him to do so.

I am also still unsure what storylines you think are being compressed here? As Marie stated, they are quite compressed in the book, and if anything, we are expanding them.

It is critical, however, to have dialogue between the elves during the trial, as you suggest, because we have to be establishing our main conflict. The main conflict cannot be their reaction to Melkor, though, as they do not meet him until the beginning of the second act. That being the case, what is the main conflict of the episode?
 
One idea would be to make the conflict be a sort of preparation for Melkor's lies. What if the conflict is about how the elves feel about being excluded from the trial?
 
Haakon said:
One idea would be to make the conflict be a sort of preparation for Melkor's lies. What if the conflict is about how the elves feel about being excluded from the trial?
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I mean they could be a bit confused and wonder what's happening, they could be scared of Melkor even. I don't think they would question the Valar or mistrust them, so no resentment because of the outcome of the trial at this point.
 
Haakon said:
I mean they could be a bit confused and wonder what's happening, they could be scared of Melkor even. I don't think they would question the Valar or mistrust them, so no resentment because of the outcome of the trial at this point.
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So how do we keep that going as the main conflict after the trial ends after Act 1.
 
Haakon said:
I mean they could be a bit confused and wonder what's happening, they could be scared of Melkor even. I don't think they would question the Valar or mistrust them, so no resentment because of the outcome of the trial at this point.
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Nicholas Palazzo said:
So how do we keep that going as the main conflict after the trial ends after Act 1.
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If Melkor's on probation, couldn't the conflict be waiting for the other shoe to drop (which doesn't happen, hence his being firmly established as in the clear at the end)...? I think the hosts mentioned something about the conflict being in the interpretation of it all? We already have a few 'antagonist' Valar, granted it would still need some fleshing out...and of course we can't just forget the elves but maybe these feelings about being excluded from the trial and reaction to Melkor's release could contribute to it?
 
Look, I realise I'm no expert on the outline structure details so I might be missing something.
I'm thinking something like this could work: The Valar get together in the Ring of Doom, which they rarely do or haven't done so far as long as the elves have been in Valinor, so they wonder what's happening. Some elves are scared by this while others trust things are fine. Then they learn that there is a trial, which leads to the release of a Vala who's been in prison for three ages. This should upset those who are afraid, but again, others will trust the Valar to have things under control. Then this Vala walks around in Valmar and you can look at him - some thinks he looks like someone whom you can trust, while others are doubtful. Then he starts some kind of building project in Valmar. It turns out to be a beautiful fountain. Wow, some people think this means he's a good guy, while others are afraid of him still. Then someone dares to go ask him how he did that and wants to learn how it's done. And he responds in a quite friendly way, and happily explains.

It's like he's a ticking bomb, who creates conflict among others while not being in conflict himself.
 
I don't discount any of this as a workable plan, but it still feels like two separate episodes to me, one in which the conflict is between the elves and their feelings about the Valar, and another in which the conflict is between the elves and their feelings about Melkor, who they didn't know in the first quarter of the episode.
 
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