Session 3.05 and 3.06 - S3 Ep 2: The Kinslaying
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Marielle
Well-Known Member
2b) who are our main characters in the battle?
I have an idea for Maedros: he could be standing besides his father,so that it looks to bystanders that he's in the thick of it, as committed as Feanor, but a careful observer could see that he's only fighting defensively, warding off blows meant for himself or his father. That way, we get his hesitation and his love and duty towards his father, as well as people having assumptions or misgivings about him.
Edited to Add:
3 and Haakon's addendum) I think the response for Finarfin and the Valar should be similar. Someone (a subordinate for Finarfin, maybe Tulkas for the Valar) wants to intervene, and is shut down with a "on what side? No matter where you stand, you would be cutting down a kinsman and Child of Iluvatar. No, we will not add to this bloodshed." It would have to be said more artfully than that, because the Teleri are less blameworthy than the Noldor here, and we don't want improper moral equivalents, but the Teleri, I could argue, are not wholly innocent here: they did choose to shed blood over objects, much as Feanor and the Noldor have.
I have an idea for Maedros: he could be standing besides his father,so that it looks to bystanders that he's in the thick of it, as committed as Feanor, but a careful observer could see that he's only fighting defensively, warding off blows meant for himself or his father. That way, we get his hesitation and his love and duty towards his father, as well as people having assumptions or misgivings about him.
Edited to Add:
3 and Haakon's addendum) I think the response for Finarfin and the Valar should be similar. Someone (a subordinate for Finarfin, maybe Tulkas for the Valar) wants to intervene, and is shut down with a "on what side? No matter where you stand, you would be cutting down a kinsman and Child of Iluvatar. No, we will not add to this bloodshed." It would have to be said more artfully than that, because the Teleri are less blameworthy than the Noldor here, and we don't want improper moral equivalents, but the Teleri, I could argue, are not wholly innocent here: they did choose to shed blood over objects, much as Feanor and the Noldor have.
The order in which we put the Valar discussing and the scenes leading up to the Kinslaying as well as the Kinslaying itself is really important. If the Valar decide not to intervene and then we get the Kinslaying, the Valar will look really stupid. If, on the other hand, we show their decision during the battle, things become more complicated and we'll have interactions such as those Marielle is suggesting. Or they could have a talk after the battle is over, which will have a totally different effect.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Well, this is what is said on the Kinslaying:
When Fëanor decided to leave Valinor he needed ships to travel to Middle-earth, but the Noldor possessed no ships, and Fëanor feared that any delay in their departure would cause the Noldor to reconsider. The Noldor, led by Fëanor and his sons, tried to persuade the Teleri of Alqualondë, to give him their ships. However, the Teleri would not help them, since it was against the will of the Valar, and in fact attempted to persuade their friends to reconsider their decision to leave. Displeased with the Teleri's answer, the Noldor started taking the ships by force. This angered the Teleri, and they threatened the Noldor with rocks and arrows, and they threw many of Fëanor's Ñoldor out of the ships into the harbor. They also attempted to block the harbour.
Then the Noldor drew swords, and the Teleri their bows, and there was a bitter fight that seemed evenly matched, until the second Host of the Ñoldor, led by Fingon, arrived together with some of Fingolfin's people. Misunderstanding the situation, they assumed the Teleri had attacked the Ñoldor under orders of the Valar, and they joined the fight. In the end, many Teleri were slain and the ships were taken. The Ñoldor that continued towards Middle-earth were therefore cursed by Mandos.
When Fëanor decided to leave Valinor he needed ships to travel to Middle-earth, but the Noldor possessed no ships, and Fëanor feared that any delay in their departure would cause the Noldor to reconsider. The Noldor, led by Fëanor and his sons, tried to persuade the Teleri of Alqualondë, to give him their ships. However, the Teleri would not help them, since it was against the will of the Valar, and in fact attempted to persuade their friends to reconsider their decision to leave. Displeased with the Teleri's answer, the Noldor started taking the ships by force. This angered the Teleri, and they threatened the Noldor with rocks and arrows, and they threw many of Fëanor's Ñoldor out of the ships into the harbor. They also attempted to block the harbour.
Then the Noldor drew swords, and the Teleri their bows, and there was a bitter fight that seemed evenly matched, until the second Host of the Ñoldor, led by Fingon, arrived together with some of Fingolfin's people. Misunderstanding the situation, they assumed the Teleri had attacked the Ñoldor under orders of the Valar, and they joined the fight. In the end, many Teleri were slain and the ships were taken. The Ñoldor that continued towards Middle-earth were therefore cursed by Mandos.
Sorry, Haakon, you're right - that should be in point 3 (now edited to reflect that).
Ideas: Fingolfin finds himself facing Olwë and they attack, but Olwë dodges and Fingolfin hits the ground, and his sword breaks. Fingolfin doesn't know what to do and Olwë and he look at each other before Olwë is attacked by Caranthir, who wounds him. He gets another wound from Celegorm.
I'm not sure at this point who I think should kill Olwë but as you can understand I am leaning towards a group doing it, or at least more than one. I want to spread the guilt.
After Fingolfin's sword breaks, his battle spirit leaves him and he shifts focus. Maybe he just retreats or he could go to Irimë who is likely dead from pretty early on. We discussed earlier that it is her death that makes Fingolfin attack? Or something like that.
I'm not sure at this point who I think should kill Olwë but as you can understand I am leaning towards a group doing it, or at least more than one. I want to spread the guilt.
After Fingolfin's sword breaks, his battle spirit leaves him and he shifts focus. Maybe he just retreats or he could go to Irimë who is likely dead from pretty early on. We discussed earlier that it is her death that makes Fingolfin attack? Or something like that.
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We need to remind the viewers of Olwë and his purpose. So before the Noldor arrive we should have a scene with Olwë, maybe with Uinen and Ossë? It would be good to reintroduce Uinen since she will appear this season. We don't have to explain too much in that scene, just a reminder or a hint of some kind.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I think unfinished tales (?) gives us a lot of details how the conflict arose ... It was largely a misunderstanding of the teleri guards and newly arriving noldor that led to escalation.
Reaction of the valar could be shown by a change of weather for example... The sky darkening and storm arising and the sea becoming dangerous ( would also make look feanors actions more suicidal) .. But i think manwe should intervene at some point with ulmo and uinen... Otherwisely the noldor would have been swallowed by the ocean
Reaction of the valar could be shown by a change of weather for example... The sky darkening and storm arising and the sea becoming dangerous ( would also make look feanors actions more suicidal) .. But i think manwe should intervene at some point with ulmo and uinen... Otherwisely the noldor would have been swallowed by the ocean
Brian Dimmick
Active Member
I don’t think we should show the Valar reacting to the Kinslaying in real time, at least not as a group. It raises a lot of narrative questions and would have to intercut with the battle scenes, which might not work well. I don’t want to give the sense that the Valar are constantly monitoring the situation among the elves from their command center and ready to intervene at any minute. We could, however, hint that one of the Valar (or Osse/Uinen) individually react with displeasure by affecting the weather Haerangil suggested.
We should at least show that the Valar are aware of the brewing Noldor rebellion before the Kinslaying (even if they are not aware of the possibility of violence, which may develop as a misunderstanding that couldn’t be predicted) , and do not intervene. Partly they are preoccupied with the death of the Trees and worried about what Melkor is doing, and unable to react decisively to events that are moving rapidly. But they also will not lightly impose their will on the elves, since they are Children of Iluvatar, who were not given to the Valar to rule as subjects. This will again show the contrast between Manwe’s vision and Melkor’s. So they will not forbid but also not intervene. This may be a mistake on the part of the Valar, caused by a failure to fully understand the elves, and I think it's fine if the audience gets that impression.
, We could show all of this during a council of the Valar, but it might be better to show it as Manwe’s decision, communicated in a private conversation to one of the other Valar who asks what is to be done about the Noldor.
And, certainly the Valar will discuss the Kinslaying after it happens.
This will be Olwë's final episode, and the last time an episode focused on him was back in Season 2 Episode 5, when Círdan opted to stay and he continued on to Valinor. He's been a periphery character since he arrived in Valinor, simply having a family connection to Finarfin and some construction disputes with Finwë.
I think that we need to first show Olwë before the Noldor arrive, to see how he and his people are reacting to the darkening of the Trees and the news of Finwë's death. [I mostly picture Teleri moping on the seashore singing sad songs in the gloom.] I think Olwë should mention the close friendship between Finwë and his own brother Elwë, and express genuine grief over the loss.
I also agree that we should bring Uinen in, so possibly she is the one bringing news to Olwë (from Ulmo) of how Melkor killed Finwë and escaped to Middle Earth. A mention of Ossë, who is not permitted to come near the coast of Valinor, would also be good.
I'm not sure how we bring up Middle Earth, but we need to. The idea of Olwë's Ulmo-given destiny to be the shipbuilder who connects Valinor back to Middle Earth has to be made clear and explicit now.
...Then Fëanor shows up. First, their exchange is cordial. Olwë expresses condolences over Finwë's death, and Fëanor seeks to recruit Olwë to his cause of returning to Middle Earth. But...something goes wrong in that conversation. I have to guess that Fëanor switches from persuasion to demands, and once he starts making threats, the negotiations are over. Olwë refuses, likely on the grounds that the ships are his and the assumption that the Noldor could just take them is way too arrogant.
What does Olwë do when Fëanor withdraws? Does he order some of the Teleri to go to the quays and safeguard the ships? Did his people witness the conversation with Fëanor, or was it private?
Fëanor feels that he has been forced into the actions he is taking. If only Olwë had been reasonable, and honored the help that Finwë provided when the Teleri first arrived in Valinor, then none of this unpleasantness would be necessary. But if he won't help, fine, disregard him and just take the ships they need. They're just borrowing them...and if the Teleri had agreed to come with them, they could have kept the ships after they were done ferrying them.... [In other words, he needs some justifications that his followers can buy, but that the audience will see the situation is NO DIFFERENT from Melkor's theft of the silmarils, really.]
Only a small host of the Noldor is currently with Fëanor - the most gung-ho who packed up the most eagerly. They are chomping at the bit and in a hurry to get going, so any delay seems a bad thing. We should have Fëanor, his sons, and Irimë in this group. Did any of them witness the conversation between Olwë and Fëanor? Fëanor is personally upset because he just got rejected by his wife, whom he really expected to come along, and now Olwë, whom he expected to help them out and at least lend the boats.
I have to imagine that the initial trek down to the boats was meant to be a show of force - get out of our way, and no one will get hurt - see these swords? But no one was expecting to actually have to fight. But...the Teleri are guarding those boats, and not about to let anyone steal them, and so.....violence breaks out and escalates *quickly*.
Sooooo...who shoots first? (Han. Han Solo shoots first.) The Teleri are likely armed with bows, and the Noldor have mostly swords. Either one could strike a sudden fatal blow. I think that Fëanor should *either* have first blood, or be the one to kill Olwë (but not both). I don't think Olwë is down at the boats when this initial skirmish happens - he's likely mustering the rest of the Teleri while this is going on.
Well, I have more thoughts, but that's enough for now
I think that we need to first show Olwë before the Noldor arrive, to see how he and his people are reacting to the darkening of the Trees and the news of Finwë's death. [I mostly picture Teleri moping on the seashore singing sad songs in the gloom.] I think Olwë should mention the close friendship between Finwë and his own brother Elwë, and express genuine grief over the loss.
I also agree that we should bring Uinen in, so possibly she is the one bringing news to Olwë (from Ulmo) of how Melkor killed Finwë and escaped to Middle Earth. A mention of Ossë, who is not permitted to come near the coast of Valinor, would also be good.
I'm not sure how we bring up Middle Earth, but we need to. The idea of Olwë's Ulmo-given destiny to be the shipbuilder who connects Valinor back to Middle Earth has to be made clear and explicit now.
...Then Fëanor shows up. First, their exchange is cordial. Olwë expresses condolences over Finwë's death, and Fëanor seeks to recruit Olwë to his cause of returning to Middle Earth. But...something goes wrong in that conversation. I have to guess that Fëanor switches from persuasion to demands, and once he starts making threats, the negotiations are over. Olwë refuses, likely on the grounds that the ships are his and the assumption that the Noldor could just take them is way too arrogant.
What does Olwë do when Fëanor withdraws? Does he order some of the Teleri to go to the quays and safeguard the ships? Did his people witness the conversation with Fëanor, or was it private?
Fëanor feels that he has been forced into the actions he is taking. If only Olwë had been reasonable, and honored the help that Finwë provided when the Teleri first arrived in Valinor, then none of this unpleasantness would be necessary. But if he won't help, fine, disregard him and just take the ships they need. They're just borrowing them...and if the Teleri had agreed to come with them, they could have kept the ships after they were done ferrying them.... [In other words, he needs some justifications that his followers can buy, but that the audience will see the situation is NO DIFFERENT from Melkor's theft of the silmarils, really.]
Only a small host of the Noldor is currently with Fëanor - the most gung-ho who packed up the most eagerly. They are chomping at the bit and in a hurry to get going, so any delay seems a bad thing. We should have Fëanor, his sons, and Irimë in this group. Did any of them witness the conversation between Olwë and Fëanor? Fëanor is personally upset because he just got rejected by his wife, whom he really expected to come along, and now Olwë, whom he expected to help them out and at least lend the boats.
I have to imagine that the initial trek down to the boats was meant to be a show of force - get out of our way, and no one will get hurt - see these swords? But no one was expecting to actually have to fight. But...the Teleri are guarding those boats, and not about to let anyone steal them, and so.....violence breaks out and escalates *quickly*.
Sooooo...who shoots first? (Han. Han Solo shoots first.) The Teleri are likely armed with bows, and the Noldor have mostly swords. Either one could strike a sudden fatal blow. I think that Fëanor should *either* have first blood, or be the one to kill Olwë (but not both). I don't think Olwë is down at the boats when this initial skirmish happens - he's likely mustering the rest of the Teleri while this is going on.
Well, I have more thoughts, but that's enough for now
Brian Dimmick
Active Member
Does Olwe know before Feanor shows up about the Noldor's intent to depart? I suspect the Teleri would have at least heard rumors about the speech in Tirion and the preparations being made. But it would be a bit more dramatic if Olwe were blindsided by what Feanor is suggesting. In any case, Feanor goes to Alqualonde confident that the Teleri will fall in line. Olwe listens with patience to hisargument about why the Teleri should join the Noldor, but he and the Teleri make little visible response (contrast to the cheers from the crowd during Feanor's speech in Tirion). Feanor gets angry and accuses the Teleri of ingratitude, but Olwe is having none of it. Feanor asks that if the Teleri will not go, they can at least ferry the Noldor across or loan them the ships. Olwe reacts badly to this, and Feanor storms out.
I don't think Feanor should actually threaten to take the ships by force at this point; the text recounts the conversation between Feanor and Olwe in some detail and doesn't include any threats by Feanor. Olwe refuses in strong words to give or sell the ships, and Feanor leaves in anger..
The text says that Feanor "spoke to the Teleri as he had spoken before in Tirion," which suggests an address to a large audience, although Olwe answers for them.
If Feanor doesn't actually threaten, there would be no reason for Olwe to organize a defense. We don't want to show them organizing for a fight. But he would tell his people to make sure the ships were manned, and some of them, having heard Feanor, could decide to bring bows. The text suggests Feanor doesn't immediately attack; he "sat in dark thought beyond the walls of Alqualonde until his host was assembled." That might have taken several days, although we don't have to be clear about the passage of time. I would show Feanor planning the seizure of the ships and gathering his forces in council with his sons.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I just re-read the UT Version of the Kinslaying in which Feanor actually wants to bring the Teleri on his side, he wants to convince them to come with him to Middle-earth and some actually ARE convinced (and those are the Steersmen! I already asked how the Noldor were able to navigate the ships - here it is because they had collaborators!).
The Noldor steal the ships and Teleri throw Rocks on them from the great Arch, other Noldo see this and misinterpret the situation and voila- a fight starts
The Noldor steal the ships and Teleri throw Rocks on them from the great Arch, other Noldo see this and misinterpret the situation and voila- a fight starts
Marielle
Well-Known Member
Where are all of our main characters at, physically and mentally/emotionally, when the Noldor hosts reach the Teleri? Some ideas:
Olwe: mourning the loss of his old peer, trying to father the rash and hurting Feanor. Adamant, however, that the ships are his, and will not give them up. Kills Irime, and is slain in turn by Fingolfin.
Feanor: rage and fury, obviously. Isn't in the mood for politicking or playing nice. He needs the ships. He'll ask. Once. Is less concerned with slaying Teleri than in securing the ships, though of course kills anyone who gets in his way of accomplishing that.
Maedros: driven by duty and loyalty to his father. Tries, perhaps, to mediate between Feanor and Olwe (perhaps promising to send a small contingent of the Noldor back with the ships after the main host has landed?). Ignored by the two kings. Afterwards fights at his father's side, but tries to act more defensively than offensively. "Has his father's back".
--the other seven sons: no real role in the events leading to the fight, seen fighting as passionately or unwillingly as their character determines.--
Irime: right behind Feanor, as gun-ho as he that they need the ships, and is willing to use force to take them. Blinders on, all she can see is revenge.
Fingolfin: a bit behind, will not see the start of the fight, but will see Irime fall. Afterwards, will engage fully and ruthlessly in the battle ("not wholly innocent"). Slays Olwe. Does he feel guilty afterwards, or is too pumped up on rage and adrenaline? How does he respond to Finarfin's counsels? Pride? Determination?
Fingon: is horrified. Engages the fight primarily to secure his aunt's body. Decides they've already sacrificed too much not to continue.
Turgon: assists his brother in securing Irime's body. Assigns true blame to Morgoth, and redetermines to continue.
Aredhel: does not engage, but does not seek to intervene to stop the fighting. The perspective of the non-combatants of the Hosts of the Noldor. (is she a warrior? She's a huntress, but that's not the same thing)
Finarfin: even further behind Fingolfin. Will see battle raging, but will prevent his people from engaging on either side, as he is convinced that will only make things worse, and fighting either side would make them slayers of kin -- he's the first, perhaps only, one to state it so explicitly. Physically holds back one of his sons who attempts to draw his sword (Aegnor?) Breaks his sword after the battle, counsels his brother to turn back, and buries Olwe and Irime on either side of the Great Arch of Living Rock, overlooking the sea towards Middle Earth. Last shot of him for a while will be him looking over the harbor from the arch, holding his face in his hands, weeping.
Finrod and Angrod: stay back with their father, watching in horror but unsure what can be done to stop the violence. Agree joining would only make it worse. Decide to continue, but only just. Influenced by the sons of Fingolfin?
Aegnor: wants to leap in to the Teleri's defense, rebuked by Finarfin.
Galadriel: frozen, disbelieving. Cannot commit either to the Noldor or Teleri side. Afterwards is furious with herself, but still cannot decide which side she's on. Curses and mourns both Olwe and Irime. Defies her father to continue because she seeks to prove herself.
Typing this out, I'm struck again by how big a cast we have. I was considering including Earwen in this, too, but I don't think we have time to differentiate her point of view from Olwe's or Finarfin's, so she might well be superfluous in this episode. She might have to have a cross conversation with Finarfin later, however, so he can justify his non-intervention to the Teleri. How much blame and repentance should we give the Teleri hosts?
Olwe: mourning the loss of his old peer, trying to father the rash and hurting Feanor. Adamant, however, that the ships are his, and will not give them up. Kills Irime, and is slain in turn by Fingolfin.
Feanor: rage and fury, obviously. Isn't in the mood for politicking or playing nice. He needs the ships. He'll ask. Once. Is less concerned with slaying Teleri than in securing the ships, though of course kills anyone who gets in his way of accomplishing that.
Maedros: driven by duty and loyalty to his father. Tries, perhaps, to mediate between Feanor and Olwe (perhaps promising to send a small contingent of the Noldor back with the ships after the main host has landed?). Ignored by the two kings. Afterwards fights at his father's side, but tries to act more defensively than offensively. "Has his father's back".
--the other seven sons: no real role in the events leading to the fight, seen fighting as passionately or unwillingly as their character determines.--
Irime: right behind Feanor, as gun-ho as he that they need the ships, and is willing to use force to take them. Blinders on, all she can see is revenge.
Fingolfin: a bit behind, will not see the start of the fight, but will see Irime fall. Afterwards, will engage fully and ruthlessly in the battle ("not wholly innocent"). Slays Olwe. Does he feel guilty afterwards, or is too pumped up on rage and adrenaline? How does he respond to Finarfin's counsels? Pride? Determination?
Fingon: is horrified. Engages the fight primarily to secure his aunt's body. Decides they've already sacrificed too much not to continue.
Turgon: assists his brother in securing Irime's body. Assigns true blame to Morgoth, and redetermines to continue.
Aredhel: does not engage, but does not seek to intervene to stop the fighting. The perspective of the non-combatants of the Hosts of the Noldor. (is she a warrior? She's a huntress, but that's not the same thing)
Finarfin: even further behind Fingolfin. Will see battle raging, but will prevent his people from engaging on either side, as he is convinced that will only make things worse, and fighting either side would make them slayers of kin -- he's the first, perhaps only, one to state it so explicitly. Physically holds back one of his sons who attempts to draw his sword (Aegnor?) Breaks his sword after the battle, counsels his brother to turn back, and buries Olwe and Irime on either side of the Great Arch of Living Rock, overlooking the sea towards Middle Earth. Last shot of him for a while will be him looking over the harbor from the arch, holding his face in his hands, weeping.
Finrod and Angrod: stay back with their father, watching in horror but unsure what can be done to stop the violence. Agree joining would only make it worse. Decide to continue, but only just. Influenced by the sons of Fingolfin?
Aegnor: wants to leap in to the Teleri's defense, rebuked by Finarfin.
Galadriel: frozen, disbelieving. Cannot commit either to the Noldor or Teleri side. Afterwards is furious with herself, but still cannot decide which side she's on. Curses and mourns both Olwe and Irime. Defies her father to continue because she seeks to prove herself.
Typing this out, I'm struck again by how big a cast we have. I was considering including Earwen in this, too, but I don't think we have time to differentiate her point of view from Olwe's or Finarfin's, so she might well be superfluous in this episode. She might have to have a cross conversation with Finarfin later, however, so he can justify his non-intervention to the Teleri. How much blame and repentance should we give the Teleri hosts?
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Right. Olwe and Ingwe were friends... Feanor could be confident he could convince Olwe to lead his people out along with the Noldor because of it.
Feanors sons... well they're fanatical followers of their father at this point.
The Ladies are perhaps more interesting at the point? Earwen... which role does she play in the conflict?
Finarfins and Fingolfins roles are a bit removed, as they do not arrive with feanor. But interesting choice to have Fingolfin kill Olwe!
Feanors sons... well they're fanatical followers of their father at this point.
The Ladies are perhaps more interesting at the point? Earwen... which role does she play in the conflict?
Finarfins and Fingolfins roles are a bit removed, as they do not arrive with feanor. But interesting choice to have Fingolfin kill Olwe!
Marielle
Well-Known Member
They're removed from the lead-up to the violence, but the host of Fingolfin gets very involved in the fighting afterwards. Though they think the Teleri started it, Tolkien does not hold them blameless in the violence.
That's why I think Fingolfin should kill Olwe: it's a dramatic enough moment for his sword to break, and this -- and his decision not to follow Finarfin in repentance -- is the low point for his character. I'm not sure killing a redshirt is enough, but having him kill his sister-in-law is too far... and voila, my brain decides that Olwe should kill Irime, so that she's not killed by a redshirt, and the Fingolfin can kill him, as the first act of revenge actually achieved by a Noldo this season, and make it look like he's going down the same path as Feanor. So that for the second half of the season, with have the parallel figures of Feanor and Fingolfin, both with the same temptations and desires, but one of them masters himself. We'd have to work out the details how, but I think that could be a really interesting and compelling story, especially considering the frame we're developing.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Just a notion I've been toying with in my brain. What if we told the entire story of the Kinslaying from the POV of the female characters? No matter how much we want (or don't want) to update the source material to a more modern gender role balance, we have already plenty of female characters - enough that they represent nearly every viewpoint among all the Eldar.
Is that gimmicky, or interesting? I can't tell.
Is that gimmicky, or interesting? I can't tell.
I *really* like this visual and find it very dramatic - I would love to incorporate it into our version of the story, if possible. Sure, the Teleri can have bows and arrows as well, but anything to make the battlefield 3-D is a good thing.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
So if Fingolfin's sword is broken, does he have a new sword forged? Is Ringil made from his broken sword?