Session 3.08 - S3 Ep3: Meanwhile in Beleriand

Discussion in 'Episode Questions' started by MithLuin, Sep 15, 2017.

  1. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    It sounds like we are ending the Kinslaying episode with the escape from the harbor and the very beginning of mourning/reactions.

    Questions for next time*:

    1) Do we have any Noldor material in Episode 3? (the storm)

    2) What is the state of Thingol’s court in the beginning?

    3) How much time do we spend on Angband’s internal relations? (orc reveal)

    4) What is Boldog’s role and his relationship to Mairon/Sauron?

    Also, let's not forget the Frame!

    *'next time' is next week, September 22nd!
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  2. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    Frame? This story has a frame?
     
  3. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    To be fair, the frame of episodes 1 and 2 was already well detailed. No need to revisit it in today's session. But good to at least remember what it is!
     
  4. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    2) We know that the Sindar develop weapons and armour later, after they meet the Dwarves. Also later, they move underground. At this point, they have no enemies. The Angband gang have been keeping mostly to themselves. A lot of elves should just hang out in the forest, they probably just lay out carpets and tra-la-lolly together under the stars. Some of them, like Beleg and Mablung, will roam close by or far away, discovering the lands of Beleriand and sometimes take a look at Thangorodrim, whose volcanic cones are dormant until Morgoth returns.
    At Thingol's court, Daeron will be a star.
     
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  6. Brian Dimmick

    Brian Dimmick Member

    Prefacing all this by saying that I'm not able to participate int he live sessions so don't know exactly what was decided there.

    1) In terms of the dramatic flow of the series, I do think we want something from the Noldor plot in E3. I think it will feel disjointed to the audience if we spend almost all the first two episodes on the Noldor and then just leave them behind entirely in the third. I know it throws a wrench in the chronology, but we've talked about that before. But we don't have to do very much with the Noldor, and we have four Beleriandic episodes before the Doom of Mandos without a whole lot of material, so we should be sparing. Maybe in E3 we show a little more of the Teleri mourning, show Tirion mostly empty, and show the Valar considering the aftermath of the Kinslaying, but we save the actual storm until E4 (or later).

    2) Agree that t this point we should show Thingol's people living rather simply in the forest, with their lifestyle not dramatically changed from that at Cuivienen. With no enemies and nothing to defend there isn't much need for them to have a city or live in close proximity to each other. They can be widely scattered and, partly as a result, very disorganized and ill-prepared when the orc attacks do start. There can be contrast between Doriath and the Havens, which are actual towns (shipbuilding and sailing requiring more concentration of people).

    Thingol's court itself could be quite simple; he doesn't need a lot of retainers or ceremony surrounding him. He keeps it simple at this stage. As time goes on and he is corrupted by pride and the Silmaril, we see him placing himself more at the center of Doriath and expecting the attention of a court.
     
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  7. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    1) I fought hard to integrate the two plots from the beginning. I felt it would make for a stronger season arc, especially once the frame is added. I was shot down, however, on the grounds that it would make events that obviously take longer to be concurrent with events that are happening very quickly and it was feared that the viewer might be confused. If we go back on this now, the problem is compounded by compressing the Beleriand storyline even further.
     
  8. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    On point 1), we could show the aftermath of the Kinslaying as the beginning of Episode 3, and then cut to 'Meanwhile in Beleriand,' not returning to the Noldor until we are ready for the Doom of Mandos.
     
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  9. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Active Member

    I think it's good to keep the development of the Sindar, which is actually before the Darkening of Valinor, well separated from the Noldor/Amanya storyline. Until the First Battle Beleriand, which was chronologically after the Doom of Mandos.

    I thought Morgoth didn't build Thangorodrim until he returned and repaired Angband? Or did that already happen by now?
     
  10. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Yes, Morgoth builds the peaks of Thangorodrim in Season 3 Episode 1, as part of his dramatic return to Middle Earth.

    So, it depends how much we are stepping *back* in time to do this episode as to whether or not they will be there.

    Personally, I am in favor of not sending out the orcs yet, so we have time to deal with Thingol and company pre-return of Morgoth for at least one episode. No giant spiders, no orcs, just Middle Earth...until the next episode, anyway. But I have to double check with our season outline to figure out how this is supposed to be playing out.
     
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  11. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    Sorry, that was sloppy. I mean they roam the lands and scout for signs of hostile activity.
     
  12. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    I think we might have to show some encounters between Beleg/Mablung and some proto orcs. Like a sign of bad things brewing. Or we do that by ending the episode with the birth of the volcanic peaks of Thangorodrim.
     
  13. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    In lost tales there was a short episode where the elves encounter the ircs for the first time. It was not an agressive encounter as far as i can remember... I'll try to find the chapter.

    That episode could be transfered to beleg and mablung..
     
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  14. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    Agree!
     
  15. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    My sketch for this episode included this for the Beleriand timeline (and I'll expand it now):
    • Establishing Thingol and Melian, and their court. Luthien has to shine from the very beginning, we have to fall in love with her at least a bit even if she's not going to do anything for ages and we will hardly see her (but we will show her reacting to Menegroth etc). Daeron, as I said, has to be a star. In these times of peace, he will (well, apart from Thingol and Melian, and Luthien), be the person at court that people talk about and admire. This will put him in a position which makes him develop fantasies about himself and Luthien.
    • Angband: SSNOP details, orcs being prepped for release. Sauron loses his job, is sent to find out what happened to Ungoliant. Morgoth does some management by fear, letting his servants know that no one has a safe position. Boldog is put in charge of the orc project. His position is under Gothmog who is put in charge of the army as operative general. I don't think a lot of time has to be spent on Angband. Boldog's relation to Mairon is probably that he thinks Mairon is a loser and he himself a winner, but they won't have much contact at this stage.
    • We visit Círdan, see the life of the Falathrim, their settlements, ships etc. This is necessary since we later on will see them besieged.
    • We see Eöl who has some kind of contact with Mîm. This is to establish that Eöl has contact with dwarves of all kinds, and to show that Mîm lives in what is to become Menegroth, and to show two loners. They don't have to be friends - in fact, I'm not sure that's within their capacity.
    • First orc raids on northern regions - Beleg and Mablung encounter orcs for the first time. This does not necessarliy have to be very aggressive. The two elves could just happen to come across some sorry looking beasts in the dark. These should be early versions of the orcs, and maybe not too strong yet? Maybe the orcs are killed or they run away. An alternative is that we see Mablung and Beleg in the wild, and suddenly the starlit dark is disrupted by three volcanic explosions to the north. The Thangoridrim are created. The time of peace is over. (We could combine the alternatives, I guess)
     
  16. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    sadly i could't find more than this:
    it#s not what i was looking for, but maybe i was mistaken and confused different lines. Faelivrins encounter with the orcs was closer to what i though i remembered:

     
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  17. Brian Dimmick

    Brian Dimmick Member

    I would suggest putting the Falathrim scene first. We have just seen the battle in Alqualonde, and the Noldor taking the ships by force. It would be a nice contrast to show the Falathrim peacefully building ships on the shores of Middle Earth.

    Perhaps these proto-orcs aren't raiding, and aren't yet aggressively seeking out the elves to fight them. They are just wandering the countryside, and Beleg and Mablung happen to encounter them. We can see them trampling the forest, cutting down a tree, and otherwise desecrating the land, so it is obvious they don't belong here, but neither the elves nor the orcs are looking for a fight, and the orcs just flee. Beleg and Mablung can be disturbed and worried by what they see, but not yet appreciate that this is a significant threat to them. The orcs' lack of aggressiveness toward the elves is something that can be beaten otu of them by Boldog back in Thangorodrim.
     
  18. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    Great suggestions! We should go from the Kinslaying to Círdan.
    And I think we should do your take of Beleg and Mablung encountering orcs, and end the episode with the volcanic eruptions signaling that times are changing.
     
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  19. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Haakon's summary from the overview thread (just making sure this isn't overlooked here):

    And a reminder that we're introducing dwarves next episode, so the idea of a fearful encounter with 'others' ending this episode sets the stage well for elves to be wary of dwarves on their first meeting. (I am fine with Mim the petty dwarf appearing here, especially if he hasn't met the other elves yet.)
     
  20. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    Yes so 'the others', the wandering beasts at the end, are obviously orcs. We don't know how much knowledge they have about elves (even if they are sadly close relatives), but at this point they have enough of elf in them to choose running away rather than attacking.
     
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