I’m saying that he does it when in Middle-earth but it could be before he marches to Angband.
Session 3.18 - S3Ep13 Season Finale!
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Neither of Haakon' s suggestions are before leaving the Helcaraxë.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
My suggestion remains to put this near the end of the episode, giving it more emphasis as a danger of inter-Noldor conflict. Doing it prior to the attempted assault upon Angband points Ringil at Morgoth, which ... I mean, does that need more emphasis?
Some thoughts on logistics.
In Episode 12, Fingolfin and his host arrived at the end of the Helcaraxë and entered into Middle Earth. They rested and regained their strength and ate some food. The Moon rose about this time. By having the Moon rise at the end of the episode, it's climatic. But it also means that the audience is anticipating the rising of the Sun from that point in time. So...we probably aren't going to want to wait until the end of the finale episode to have the Sun rise - we'll want to show some of the things that are happening after the sun rises - such as the hiding of Valinor. So, I am imagining the Sun will rise in a montage at the middle of the episode (roughly). The nice thing about the Sun is that it rises every day, so we can still have nighttime and sunrise sequences after the Very First Sunrise. I see no reason to change the textual account of having Fingolfin's arrival at Angband's gates corresponding with the Sun being brand new, because that does a lot to explain Morgoth's non-response. We don't have to wonder why an army isn't chasing Fingolfin away at this time.
But speaking of logistics...how is Fingolfin finding his way around? He's just arrived in Middle-earth for the first time, and he certainly doesn't have a map of northern Beleriand with him. And so...despite his clear *desire* to find Morgoth and to find Fëanor, we need to devise a way for him to actually find them. This needn't be anything complicated or elaborate. I think the easiest way to find Angband is to follow some orcs (or other creatures) back there. Likewise, the easiest way to discover the Fëanorean encampment at Lake Mithrim would be to have some scouts see it, and report back. But we need to work that into the storytelling so that it all makes sense together. It does *not* make any sense for the entire Host of Fingolfin to march through Hithlum, see the elves encamped at Lake Mithrim, and then continue marching to Angband without stopping. There are enough mountain ranges around that I think we can get Fingolfin to Angband without seeing Lake Mithrim easily enough. If anything, news of having found the Fëanoreans could be the reason that Fingolfin retreats from Angband's gates without doing much more than blowing trumpets.
Conversely, how do the Sons of Fëanor find out about Fingolfin's arrival? Obviously, Maedhros knows when he hears them while hanging out on the cliff. I agree that it would make sense that they are ignorant at the final parley where they refuse to deal with Morgoth and thus (seemingly) seal Maedhros' fate. That needs to happen very early in the episode anyway, so that Morgoth can then question Maedhros (ie, taunt him) and then staple him to the cliff. So...how do they find out that Fingolfin is here? Do they hear the trumpets blowing from far away and send Celegorm and Huan out to scout? Do they remain ignorant until the entire Host marches into Hithlum?
We aren't going to show the actual meeting of these two groups in this Season. Maglor, upon realizing that his half-uncle is here, is going to retreat and put the Lake between them. Fingolfin is going to reforge Ringil with some rather interesting implications. But we can definitely hear both sides talking about the other group in this episode, and so how to handle the reveal and the aftermath (when the audience is already pretty much expecting all of this) is, well...a challenge.
In Episode 12, Fingolfin and his host arrived at the end of the Helcaraxë and entered into Middle Earth. They rested and regained their strength and ate some food. The Moon rose about this time. By having the Moon rise at the end of the episode, it's climatic. But it also means that the audience is anticipating the rising of the Sun from that point in time. So...we probably aren't going to want to wait until the end of the finale episode to have the Sun rise - we'll want to show some of the things that are happening after the sun rises - such as the hiding of Valinor. So, I am imagining the Sun will rise in a montage at the middle of the episode (roughly). The nice thing about the Sun is that it rises every day, so we can still have nighttime and sunrise sequences after the Very First Sunrise. I see no reason to change the textual account of having Fingolfin's arrival at Angband's gates corresponding with the Sun being brand new, because that does a lot to explain Morgoth's non-response. We don't have to wonder why an army isn't chasing Fingolfin away at this time.
But speaking of logistics...how is Fingolfin finding his way around? He's just arrived in Middle-earth for the first time, and he certainly doesn't have a map of northern Beleriand with him. And so...despite his clear *desire* to find Morgoth and to find Fëanor, we need to devise a way for him to actually find them. This needn't be anything complicated or elaborate. I think the easiest way to find Angband is to follow some orcs (or other creatures) back there. Likewise, the easiest way to discover the Fëanorean encampment at Lake Mithrim would be to have some scouts see it, and report back. But we need to work that into the storytelling so that it all makes sense together. It does *not* make any sense for the entire Host of Fingolfin to march through Hithlum, see the elves encamped at Lake Mithrim, and then continue marching to Angband without stopping. There are enough mountain ranges around that I think we can get Fingolfin to Angband without seeing Lake Mithrim easily enough. If anything, news of having found the Fëanoreans could be the reason that Fingolfin retreats from Angband's gates without doing much more than blowing trumpets.
Conversely, how do the Sons of Fëanor find out about Fingolfin's arrival? Obviously, Maedhros knows when he hears them while hanging out on the cliff. I agree that it would make sense that they are ignorant at the final parley where they refuse to deal with Morgoth and thus (seemingly) seal Maedhros' fate. That needs to happen very early in the episode anyway, so that Morgoth can then question Maedhros (ie, taunt him) and then staple him to the cliff. So...how do they find out that Fingolfin is here? Do they hear the trumpets blowing from far away and send Celegorm and Huan out to scout? Do they remain ignorant until the entire Host marches into Hithlum?
We aren't going to show the actual meeting of these two groups in this Season. Maglor, upon realizing that his half-uncle is here, is going to retreat and put the Lake between them. Fingolfin is going to reforge Ringil with some rather interesting implications. But we can definitely hear both sides talking about the other group in this episode, and so how to handle the reveal and the aftermath (when the audience is already pretty much expecting all of this) is, well...a challenge.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
I say Fingolfin sends out scouts to look for Feanor, and/or his banners. As for the Feanoreans becoming aware, I’d send Celegorm and Huan out to scout, and Celegorm and Huan see more Elves, some with Fingolfin’s standard.
I do agree that the viewers will anticipate the rising of the Sun but I don’t think that they cannot wait longer than half the episode. We can at least wait until past two thirds of the episode, or more, it should be part of the climax of the finale.
But yes, it should be accompanied with a montage showing reactions from elves and foes.
I agree totally that there are enough mountains to make it logical that Fingolfin doesn’t notice the Feanoreans until later on.
I don’t think it will be a problem to show Fingolfin noticing the Thangorodrim volcanoes and going in that direction. He can stop and forge Ringil on the way. If he decides to go there first, his scouts will presumably mostly be outlooks and not moving too far away.(And this way they won’t notice the Feanoreans until later)
But yes, it should be accompanied with a montage showing reactions from elves and foes.
I agree totally that there are enough mountains to make it logical that Fingolfin doesn’t notice the Feanoreans until later on.
I don’t think it will be a problem to show Fingolfin noticing the Thangorodrim volcanoes and going in that direction. He can stop and forge Ringil on the way. If he decides to go there first, his scouts will presumably mostly be outlooks and not moving too far away.(And this way they won’t notice the Feanoreans until later)
Last edited:
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Perhaps, but not necessarily. Not having a sword does not necessarily mean unarmed, especially on the battlefield. I also think it important to not have him make the sword he will use for the rest of his life without first having been in real battle against armored soldiery. After his first clash with orcs is the earliest I can stomach this. This was the whole reason Ringil was not his first sword.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
So what would he use in the interim?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Most likely some sort of spear.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Better than a hammer.
Ok good points. Then I’m becoming more and more convinced that Ringil should not be forged until next season. It’s part of a new start.
I mean, for Fingolfin, the situation is rather unclear. He arrives in this place he's never seen, and as he does so, the Sun (a completely new thing) rises and as he unfurls his banners and blows his horns, he sees orcs (he's never seen any of them before) running away towards Angband. He follows them - but there isn't a real fight at this point - and blows his horns some more when he arrives at the gates of Angband. But he realises that he can't break the gates, so what then? He has to retreat and then find out about the Feanoreans and so on, and then he will probably forge Ringil, but that's not really a good ending to the season.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
So how do we change that?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
The part about it not being a good ending to the season. Maybe Fingolfin reforges it when he reaches Mithrim, and his scenes for Season 3 end with encountering the Feanoreans again.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Sounds pretty good. Do you think they’ll be all right with pushing the reforging to Season 4?
This is how I would prefer to do it, just for the main plots:
Epidosde 12:
All of the false parley between Sauron and Maedhros is concluded in this episode, if possible (if there's time). Maedhros is definitely captured in this episode. Morgoth interrogates him, which we don't show on screen. We do see Angband politicking between Gothmog and Sauron. There are more back-and-forths of messengers, and the Feanorians refuse the final terms Morgoth sends them (in Ep 12 if possible, very early in Ep 13 if necessary).
One of the last scenes opens with Fingolfin's host stepping onto real land, off of the Helkaraxe. They pause in relief and to get their bearings, and in that minute, the Moon rises in the West. We see some reaction shots of various Elves and some Orcs, but focus on and finish with Fingolfin's host. Their relief and joy, and blowing their trumpets.
The Moonlight may also be what reveals the Feanorian camp to Cirdan and Celeborn.
Episode 13:
Fingolfin's host are somewhere in northern Lammoth, resting.
The Feanorians fortify their camp at Mithrim, and declare Maglor King of the Noldor.
Fingolfin's host start moving southward and a bit eastward in search of food and somewhere warmer to rest. They get into northern Hithlum. They have a chance to rest and regain their strength. (We show that time is passing by putting other events [including events of the lesser plotlines] between this and the next scene with Fingolfin. We also have a Moon now, to help with time.) Feanorian scouts are out and about in Hithlum, and they might see Fingolfin's group at this point and report back to Maglor. Or, we could make it a surprise when the host gets closer to Lake Mithrim (which would be my preference).
The Sun rises in Act 3, allowing some time between Moon and Sun.
When the Sun rises, we see reactions from a lot of people: Fingolfin's host, Feanorians, Falathrim, Sindar and Melian in Doriath, Nandor, Orcs, leaders in Angband, Maedhros on Thangorodrim. We see flowers blooming and other plants sprouting, and animals waking up.
Fingolfin's host see Orcs fleeing northward because of the Sunlight. (There could be a skirmish so Fingolfin's host knows these are definitely hostile. I can imagine they're wary of accidentally starting another Kinslaying against the first strangers they meet, just because they're ugly.) Fingolfin's host follow the hostile creatures north to Thangorodrim (which is visible as soon as they get past the nearest mountain range). They go all the way to Angband and smite upon the gates and blow their trumpets. Maedhros hears them, but nobody can hear him. The bad guys in Angband are rather in disarray at the double arrival of the Sun and a new Noldorin army, so every evil creature hides in Angband if they can get there.
Fingolfin realizes they can't just defeat Morgoth like that, however, and his host are not at all ready for war. So he turns his host south, towards the warmer land with the mountains surrounding it.
As Fingolfin's host moves through Hithlum, his scouts report that they've found a camp with Feanorian banners waving over it. Fingolfin marches them right towards the Feanorians. Maglor moves them to the other side of the Lake, trying to avoid conflict. We show the Elves of each group discussing the other group. We emphasize the tension and anger between them, so that the audience doesn't know whether war will break out. Part of that rising tension is Fingolfin forging Ringil. Is that sword for war with Morgoth... or for conflict against the Feanorians?
We end with the Men waking up in Hildorien looking up at the Sun and around them at the world in wonder and delight. Grunting and pointing and laughing, rather than singing or inventing words right away.
There are the Dark-Elf side-plot(s) to fit into Episode 13 as well, concerning Doriath, Thingol, Cirdan, Eol, and the Guest-Elves. I think their last scene has to be Cirdan himself reporting the arrival of the Noldor to Thingol, which means we can show his journey from Mithrim to Doriath as a signal of how much time is passing during this episode, after the Moonrise.
The Hiding of Valinor would be near the end of the episode, but not the final scene.
If we end with Fingolfin at Angband, then the difficulty I see is the timing that leaves us with for Season 4 Episode 1.
If we need to make this series finale 2 hours long, we might be able to convince the Hosts to let us. However, Episode 1 of Season 4 will be 1 hour and needs to include Fingon rescuing Maedhros, so I don't think there'll be time in S 01 Ep 04 to get all the way from Fingolfin's trumpets at Thangorodrim to that. Putting that all into one episode risks giving the impression that Maedhros is only there for about a week or two at most, and it was no big deal at all, which I don't want to do. Most of all, I think Fingon couldn't to come to his decision so quickly. I want to give him time to think about it, to find out what happened to Maedhros, and to rest and recover after the ordeal of crossing the Grinding Ice. Fingon is supposed to rescue Maedhros in Year 5, not immediately after arriving in Mithrim. If we finish Season 3 with Fingolfin in Mithrim, then those 5 years can pass between Seasons, off screen. That seems far easier to me, and I want to avoid making more changes to the timeline that we don't need to make.
Timing in the next season is already going to be awkward because of the large time period, and possibly extremely cramped if Nick can't persuade Corey to give us 2 seasons before Beren and Luthien. We can't assume Corey will change his mind about this. It has me very worried. It's quite possible we'll have to somehow squeeze 465 years of mementous events and character development, including Dagor Bragollach, into only 13 hours of television. That would be extremely difficult, and probably require skipping numerous important historical events. (If Dagor Bragollach takes up an hour, that leaves 1 hour per 39 years.) I strongly believe we need to plan ahead in case that happens.
So, I think the best option is to avoid adding additional events to Season 4, and not to end Season 13 before Fingolfin gets to Lake Mithrim. Tension between the Noldor is a suitably dramatic cliffhanger ending, and finishes some scenes so that we won't then have to give short thrift by force-fitting them into Season 4 Episode 1. It also trims Season 4 a bit, by letting 5 years pass during between-season downtime.
Epidosde 12:
All of the false parley between Sauron and Maedhros is concluded in this episode, if possible (if there's time). Maedhros is definitely captured in this episode. Morgoth interrogates him, which we don't show on screen. We do see Angband politicking between Gothmog and Sauron. There are more back-and-forths of messengers, and the Feanorians refuse the final terms Morgoth sends them (in Ep 12 if possible, very early in Ep 13 if necessary).
One of the last scenes opens with Fingolfin's host stepping onto real land, off of the Helkaraxe. They pause in relief and to get their bearings, and in that minute, the Moon rises in the West. We see some reaction shots of various Elves and some Orcs, but focus on and finish with Fingolfin's host. Their relief and joy, and blowing their trumpets.
The Moonlight may also be what reveals the Feanorian camp to Cirdan and Celeborn.
Episode 13:
Fingolfin's host are somewhere in northern Lammoth, resting.
The Feanorians fortify their camp at Mithrim, and declare Maglor King of the Noldor.
Fingolfin's host start moving southward and a bit eastward in search of food and somewhere warmer to rest. They get into northern Hithlum. They have a chance to rest and regain their strength. (We show that time is passing by putting other events [including events of the lesser plotlines] between this and the next scene with Fingolfin. We also have a Moon now, to help with time.) Feanorian scouts are out and about in Hithlum, and they might see Fingolfin's group at this point and report back to Maglor. Or, we could make it a surprise when the host gets closer to Lake Mithrim (which would be my preference).
The Sun rises in Act 3, allowing some time between Moon and Sun.
When the Sun rises, we see reactions from a lot of people: Fingolfin's host, Feanorians, Falathrim, Sindar and Melian in Doriath, Nandor, Orcs, leaders in Angband, Maedhros on Thangorodrim. We see flowers blooming and other plants sprouting, and animals waking up.
Fingolfin's host see Orcs fleeing northward because of the Sunlight. (There could be a skirmish so Fingolfin's host knows these are definitely hostile. I can imagine they're wary of accidentally starting another Kinslaying against the first strangers they meet, just because they're ugly.) Fingolfin's host follow the hostile creatures north to Thangorodrim (which is visible as soon as they get past the nearest mountain range). They go all the way to Angband and smite upon the gates and blow their trumpets. Maedhros hears them, but nobody can hear him. The bad guys in Angband are rather in disarray at the double arrival of the Sun and a new Noldorin army, so every evil creature hides in Angband if they can get there.
Fingolfin realizes they can't just defeat Morgoth like that, however, and his host are not at all ready for war. So he turns his host south, towards the warmer land with the mountains surrounding it.
As Fingolfin's host moves through Hithlum, his scouts report that they've found a camp with Feanorian banners waving over it. Fingolfin marches them right towards the Feanorians. Maglor moves them to the other side of the Lake, trying to avoid conflict. We show the Elves of each group discussing the other group. We emphasize the tension and anger between them, so that the audience doesn't know whether war will break out. Part of that rising tension is Fingolfin forging Ringil. Is that sword for war with Morgoth... or for conflict against the Feanorians?
We end with the Men waking up in Hildorien looking up at the Sun and around them at the world in wonder and delight. Grunting and pointing and laughing, rather than singing or inventing words right away.
There are the Dark-Elf side-plot(s) to fit into Episode 13 as well, concerning Doriath, Thingol, Cirdan, Eol, and the Guest-Elves. I think their last scene has to be Cirdan himself reporting the arrival of the Noldor to Thingol, which means we can show his journey from Mithrim to Doriath as a signal of how much time is passing during this episode, after the Moonrise.
The Hiding of Valinor would be near the end of the episode, but not the final scene.
If we end with Fingolfin at Angband, then the difficulty I see is the timing that leaves us with for Season 4 Episode 1.
If we need to make this series finale 2 hours long, we might be able to convince the Hosts to let us. However, Episode 1 of Season 4 will be 1 hour and needs to include Fingon rescuing Maedhros, so I don't think there'll be time in S 01 Ep 04 to get all the way from Fingolfin's trumpets at Thangorodrim to that. Putting that all into one episode risks giving the impression that Maedhros is only there for about a week or two at most, and it was no big deal at all, which I don't want to do. Most of all, I think Fingon couldn't to come to his decision so quickly. I want to give him time to think about it, to find out what happened to Maedhros, and to rest and recover after the ordeal of crossing the Grinding Ice. Fingon is supposed to rescue Maedhros in Year 5, not immediately after arriving in Mithrim. If we finish Season 3 with Fingolfin in Mithrim, then those 5 years can pass between Seasons, off screen. That seems far easier to me, and I want to avoid making more changes to the timeline that we don't need to make.
Timing in the next season is already going to be awkward because of the large time period, and possibly extremely cramped if Nick can't persuade Corey to give us 2 seasons before Beren and Luthien. We can't assume Corey will change his mind about this. It has me very worried. It's quite possible we'll have to somehow squeeze 465 years of mementous events and character development, including Dagor Bragollach, into only 13 hours of television. That would be extremely difficult, and probably require skipping numerous important historical events. (If Dagor Bragollach takes up an hour, that leaves 1 hour per 39 years.) I strongly believe we need to plan ahead in case that happens.
So, I think the best option is to avoid adding additional events to Season 4, and not to end Season 13 before Fingolfin gets to Lake Mithrim. Tension between the Noldor is a suitably dramatic cliffhanger ending, and finishes some scenes so that we won't then have to give short thrift by force-fitting them into Season 4 Episode 1. It also trims Season 4 a bit, by letting 5 years pass during between-season downtime.
Last edited: