Session 3.18 - S3Ep13 Season Finale!

@cellardur
I'm not against alluding to the Losgar battle concept with a _small_ skirmish that happens after Fingolfin's host have a chance to rest, a while before the Sun rises. I think we all agreed to do that. (I'm also not against there being a very small number of guards at the gates of Angband, and/or lookouts in the mountains.)


But the reason I dislike the Losgar battle story is because it isn't just a difference to one or two scenes -- it causes contradictions with several important parts of the Silmarillion. Tolkien didn't integrate this rough scribble with the other stories like the Helkaraxe, or fix the contradictions. We can't just use it as written, minus Arakano.

Also, this Lammoth battle story doesn't show Fingolfin's people being defeated, and then saved by the Sunrise, which I think you suggested. Doing that would also require the Sun to rise earlier in the episode, before Act IV, which the Hosts apparently won't allow.


Lastly, we don't need tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of Orcs to attack Fingolfin's people at Lammoth. Morgoth doesn't need that many to defend Angband from Elves; he has a mountain range. All we need is a small group of 100-2000 enemies to skirmish with the Noldor, and then flee, leading them to Angband. There's no need for more enemies than that.
 
Last edited:
Faelivrin said:
@cellardur
I'm not against alluding to the Losgar battle concept with a _small_ skirmish that happens after Fingolfin's host have a chance to rest, a while before the Sun rises. I think we all agreed to do that. (I'm also not against there being a very small number of guards at the gates of Angband, and/or lookouts in the mountains.)


But the reason I dislike the Losgar battle story is because it isn't just a difference to one or two scenes -- it causes contradictions with several important parts of the Silmarillion. Tolkien didn't integrate this rough scribble with the other stories like the Helkaraxe, or fix the contradictions. We can't just use it as written, minus Arakano.

Also, this Lammoth battle story doesn't show Fingolfin's people being defeated, and then saved by the Sunrise, which I think you suggested. Doing that would also require the Sun to rise earlier in the episode, before Act IV, which the Hosts apparently won't allow.
Click to expand...
I have said before I am not married to the Battle of Lammoth. In fact, I would only have advocated it had Argon been part of our story. It was just a suggestion. Like with all changes, no matter how small it would cause bigger changes later on, like the butterfly effect.

Adding the battle would require changing the location of the battle or as you said changing the arising of the sun. The former would be much easier to do.

The bolded is the key. If we added this we would need to adjust the story to fit.
Lastly, we don't need tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of Orcs to attack Fingolfin's people at Lammoth. Morgoth doesn't need that many to defend Angband from Elves; he has a mountain range. All we need is a small group of 100-2000 enemies to skirmish with the Noldor, and then flee, leading them to Angband. There's no need for more enemies than that.
Click to expand...
Yes, there's no need to have a greater host other than adding drama and being closer to what Tolkien intended. In the notes he outlined the Orcs had enough numbers to break the lines of Fingolfin's host. I will repeat I am not fighting or even arguing for this position. It was just a suggestion, backed up by Tolkien's last words.

I am very happy for Fingolfin to march unopposed with his army and announce his coming to Angband with no battle at all.

The only thing I am against is Fingolfin riding up alone and challenging Morgoth to single combat.
 
Just how big are we all thinking when we hear "host" or "army"? I may have underestimated the populations of everyone, on both sides, compared to other readers here....

I always imagined a total Elf population, Noldor plus Sindar (plus Nandor I guess), in the high 10s of thousands tops (Gondolin housing maybe 5-8 thousand, Menegroth with 15-ish thousand, etc.). And Orcs varying wildly with their fortunes in war, up to the low millions at worst.

This is vased on a) Elves not having many kids and being individually of great prowess so one average Elf can accomplish the deeds of a great many average Men and b) the armies of Men involved in the muuuch later War of the Ring being in the thousands or maaaybe squeaking past 10 thousand here or there.

But maybe I'm off by orders of magnitude? I seem to recall someone elsewhere saying hundreds of thousands of Noldor crossing the Helcaraxe and that puts me waaaaay on the low side already (I'd have thought 20 thousand would be a stretch).
 
I feel something similar. But I guess that a lot of Elves die in the wars to come, and the Noldor at least don't marry in times of war so that will reduce reproduction, which means there should be a lot of them to begin with.
 
amysrevenge said:
Just how big are we all thinking when we hear "host" or "army"? I may have underestimated the populations of everyone, on both sides, compared to other readers here....

I always imagined a total Elf population, Noldor plus Sindar (plus Nandor I guess), in the high 10s of thousands tops (Gondolin housing maybe 5-8 thousand, Menegroth with 15-ish thousand, etc.). And Orcs varying wildly with their fortunes in war, up to the low millions at worst.

This is vased on a) Elves not having many kids and being individually of great prowess so one average Elf can accomplish the deeds of a great many average Men and b) the armies of Men involved in the muuuch later War of the Ring being in the thousands or maaaybe squeaking past 10 thousand here or there.

But maybe I'm off by orders of magnitude? I seem to recall someone elsewhere saying hundreds of thousands of Noldor crossing the Helcaraxe and that puts me waaaaay on the low side already (I'd have thought 20 thousand would be a stretch).
Click to expand...
Gondolin alone could bring 10,000 warriors to the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Now generally pre-industrialisation societies could field 10 percent of the population at most. Now I would say only a very small percentage of female Elves went to battle, maybe 5 percent based on what Tolkien has said. The Elves also don't have any upper age boundaries, but not everyone was a warrior. Take into account the numbers left to defend the city and those too young to fight. So I think we can estimate about maybe 25-35% of Gondolin's population came to Nirnaeth Arnoediad. This is the 5th battle and the Noldor had already suffered many casualties. So we can estimate Gondolin alone might have had a population of 30,000.

Now Turgon took a third of Fingolfin's followers, but more Sindar. I took this to mean he took a 1/3 of the people directly under Fingolfin and not under Finrod or Maedhros (the two other great kings and head of each respective branch of Finwe's sons.

So Fingolfin would have say 30,000 Noldor himself.
Finrod had the largest land and I imagine probably the largest group of the Noldor so maybe 40,000.

So my guesses would be

Turgon/Gondolin-30,000
Fingolfin-30,000
Finrod-40,000
Maedros-20,000

Doriath is stated to be weaker than than the sons of Feanor so maybe 12,000 strong.

Hard to get a number for Cirdan and the other Sindar elves in Beleriand.

However, I don't think 100,000 is a bad estimate for the Noldor exiles. With another 50,000 Sindar, some absorbed into the Noldor kingdoms.

The armies of LOTR are much, much smaller than they were in the Last Alliance and nothing compared to the great Numenorean armies.
 
Yeah, Cellardur basically said what I was going to say, but better. I think if 10,000 is 25-35% that puts Gondolin at 30,000-40,000 total, and they didn't take part in the Fourth Battle. I'm not sure the Sindar in Gondolin were twice as many as the Noldor... My guess is at least 13,000 and 17,000 respectively, total 30,000 founders, then some births in the city.

For the Noldor alone, not counting Sindar, my guestimates at the low end are similar to Cellardur's:

Fingolfin: 13,000 (total of 39,000)
Fingon: 13,000
Turgon: 13,000
Finrod: 14,000 (total of 39,000)
Angrod: 12,500
Aegnor: 12,500
Orodreth: with Finrod.
Feanorians: total 30,000 (if divided evenly, each Son of Feanor has 5000)
grand total who reached Middle-earth: 108,000 Exiles

Finrod's following became the largest, but I think that's partly because he had more Sindar followers than anyone else

The Noldor would not necessarily have divided up into followers of individual warrior-princes until they got to Beleriand. So I guess there's probably no reason to assume that Finarfin and each of his sons started with exactly 1/3 as many Elves as Fingolfin started with. So... instead I'll wildly guess that the House of Finarfin had roughly as many Noldor as the House of Fingolfin. That doesn't have a basis in anything.

That said, the total Sindar in Beleriand outnumbered the total Noldor. Tolkien doesn't say by how many. In Quendi and Eldar, the Teleri started with more Eldar than the Noldor did, but the Sindar and Nandor who remained behind totalled fewer than the Noldor who reached Aman. So, I guess the Sindar had to have more kids than the Noldor did? Maybe they didn't outnumber the Noldor by very much. But, the Noldor did leave behind 10% of their people in Aman, more went back with Finarfin, and more died on the Ice.


Wasting my time on more fantasy math instead of doing math with my finances:

Estimated 39,000 + 39,000 people survived the Grinding Ice. My wild guess is 25% died on the Helkaraxe, so 104,000 started the journey. Guessing that Finarfin took 10% of those rebels who had followed him and Fingolfin, the two started with 115,556 rebels. Guessing that Feanor lost 5% in Alqualonde, he started with 31,580 people. That's a total of 147,136 rebels. But 10% stayed behind in Aman. That would give the Noldor a population of 163,484 people at the Darkening of Valinor.

In Quendi and Eldar, the [Sindar + Nandor] were 26 to the Noldor's 28 (per 144 Elves at Kuivienen). Using the above estimates/wild guesses, if they reproduced at the exact same rate as the Noldor, then the Sindar and Nandor would total 151,807 people at the time of the Darkening of Valinor. That's only 43,907 more than the Noldor who arrived in Middle-earth.

The proportion is about 140 [Sindar + Nandor] per 100 Noldor. In Gondolin, my estimates above are ~131 Sindar per 100 Noldor. That's pretty close -- I think too close, because I'm guessing most of the Sindar live in Doriath and the Falas, not out among the Noldor. [Especially in SilmFilm, since the Hosts decided there are NO Sindar anywhere in Mithrim, Nevrast, or Dorthonion.]

So, for the Sindar to significantly outnumber the Noldor, either they had more kids, or all the Nandor in Middle-earth were a small number, like 4000 people. That wouldn't leave us with many Green-elves for Ossiriand and the Second Battle.

Or, another option is ignore the numbers in Quendi and Eldar.


cellardur said:
The only thing I am against is Fingolfin riding up alone and challenging Morgoth to single combat.
Click to expand...
Likewise. I disagree 100% with Corey about Fingolfin and Turgon. I finished watching the YouTube video this weekend, and.... No. Just... so much Nope. Turgon is not Jesus Christ, and Fingolfin ... arg

I don't have anything bad to say about their Hildorien ideas, though.
 
Last edited:
I know I’m rather late to the party but I think there’s a real problem having Fingolfin banging on the doors of Angband at or shortly after the rising of the sun. Not only are the Noldor exhausted from the crossing of the Helcaraxe, but it is a long way from the Firth of Drengist to the Iron Mountains, perhaps 250 miles one way. There’s no way he can do this in a day or two, even we’re he riding one of the Mearas.

I think it far better to reserve that for the beginning of season 4, emphasizing the lengthy torment of Maedhros, allowing Fingolfin to bring a larger host, and thereby bookending season 4 with the two challenges of Fingolfin; one met with silence, the other bringing disaster.
 
That's why they start Episode 13 resting in Lammoth, recovering their strength. We also delayed the rising of the Sun until after they marched over that distance. But, I don't know a good way to convey how long they spent resting or travelling.

But please feel free to comment on the in-progress script outlines for the episode, or make suggestions:
https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/s03e13-script-discussion-finale-time.2749/
https://docs.google.com/document/d/19E_-y2LFq8n2grRtCyiE7fnwKJgvfkpQI_n-4jAzN5g/edit?usp=sharing

It's probably too late to change the overall structure or where the episode ends, so close to the May 30 deadline, but I would love to get any suggestions you have about how to convey the time it took for Fingolfin's people to rest, and then cover that distance to Angband. (The Moon's position in the sky isn't so helpful while it's rising in the West and setting in the East, unfortunately...)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top