Session 4.04 & 4.05 - Overarching Storylines

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Sample dialogue:

N: "Some of us came over in ships, some of us walked."

S: "Why didn't all of you come over in ships?"

N: (uncomfortable) "Well, there wasn't enough room for all of us [true], and they were burned before they could make a return trip to get the rest of us [true] and we were very eager to get across the sea [true] so we went on foot [true]."

S: "Oh. That makes sense."
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
The Sindar don't have a lot of time to stew on exactly what the crossing of the Helcaraxe means.
Fifteen seconds is long enough, if the Sindar are sentient, and capable of remembering that the Noldor had ships.

Again, I don't want to write scripts in which all the Elves in Beleriand spontaneously get brain damage and become stupider than a cat with dementia. (I love my cat, but he isn't a good model for Eldarin behavior, trust me. ;p)

Your proposal dialogue is the Noldo telling active lies instead of merely lying by omission. I am not in favor of them going that far.

Edit: almost active lies. I’ll have to think more about those dialogues
 
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amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Sample dialogue

S: "So how did the ships come to be burned?"

N (not a Feanorean); "I wasn't there [true], but I hear it was awful [true]. I don't wish to speak more of it [VERY true]"

S (who isn't an asshole): "Ah, I see."


Sample dialogue

S: "So, how did the ships come to be burned?"

N (a Feanorean): "Alas, poor Amros! Taken by the flames! [true] Thinking of that night brings it all back [true]." (cries a little)

S: "Oh I'm so sorry. I'll spread the word that we should tread carefully around that subject!"
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Right, there are a few different issues here.

One is how the Noldor feel about the various events in their recent past, and how eager they are to recount them to 'new' elves they are just meeting for the first time. Considering what their recent past is...'not too eager' seems fair enough. Some of them will refuse to talk about it, and consider those events painful for years to come. Others are not as directly affected, so as the hardship is gone, they are able to deal with the memory of it in their own ways. Others will form deep and meaningful relationships with the Sindar they meet, having a reason to share intimate details from their own past, even difficult or traumatic ones.


But there is another question - what topics are 'taboo' to talk about, not just because they are painful/difficult, but because Fingolfin the High King has demanded silence on these matters? Clearly, the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos are super secret and cannot be mentioned to new elves they meet - there is guilt there, not just pain. There's a reason to hide the truth. The feud between the Fëanoreans and the other Noldor would be...well, difficult to conceal completely, but probably something they are glossing over as hard as they can. This is a 'show a united happy front to the outsiders' situation, where you don't come clean about your internal issues because it's nobody's business. And once the feud is healed, it's considered 'in the past' by most parties, though...obviously not in reality, entirely. So, yes, they are also concealing Fëanor abandoning the other Noldor in Araman as well. But here, it's not their *own* guilt they are hiding, but the guilt of those who wronged them. So, they hide a lot less about this part of the story (most likely), just the betrayal. I don't see any reason to conceal the crossing of the Helcaraxë itself, so I doubt it's an equally taboo topic like the others. There may be reasons to avoid talking about it for a little while, but it's hardly a secret they can keep.

So, what stories do you have to tell to keep those secrets and avoid those questions?

1) The Noldor cannot claim to be sent by the Valar, as that is an outright lie, but they should fail to correct that assumption if the Sindar make it, because explaining how, no, actually we rebelled against the Valar and are banished from Valinor is not something they want to say. So, they stick with the 'We came to fight Morgoth!' approach, and do not mention the Valar's will here at all. IF they are asked about the Valar - maybe, oh, hey, are the Valar coming to help fight Morgoth, too? Then the Noldor would have to say, 'No, they aren't coming. It's just us.' The Sindar may wonder at the seeming disconnect, but probably won't think to conclude, oh, the Noldor are rebels.

2) In Season 2, Círdan and Celeborn saw the burned ships, but had not yet caught up with the Noldor. However, they were within sight of the Noldor camp by the time the Sun rose, so concealing the division between the Host of Fingolfin and the Host of Fëanor from Círdan is going to be no easy feat. Círdan is meeting the Noldor *before* the issue of High Kingship is resolved, *before* the rescue of Maedhros. Granted, there's a language barrier, but...the two very separate camps are not exactly going to be presenting a unified front. I think we have to resolve the issue of what Círdan's first impressions are at some point here, as he is the key character to 'figure out' the Kinslaying. Most likely, he's just meeting the Host of Fingolfin for his 'first contact', and not meeting the Fëanoreans right away?

3) Concealing the silmarils and the Oath is easy, as the Sindar don't know to ask about them. The death of Finwë would come out sooner, simply because Thingol is going to ask after both his brother Olwë and his best friend Finwë as soon as he meets Angrod. So, saying that Morgoth destroyed the Trees and killed Finwë, and that this precipitated the Noldor's voyage to Middle Earth...technically all true, but leaves out the whole rebellion thing. What will Angrod say about Olwë (his own grandfather)? Surely he will also reveal to Thingol that Olwë was killed when asked about it, but maybe in such a way that it seems part of the Darkening of Valinor/Death of Finwë situation? He's not going to outright lie to cover for Fëanor, here, but he is likely to skirt the truth is such a way that no one thinks to question him. Something like:
*is asked about Olwë and Finwë* (his grandfathers - this is going to come up pretty much as soon as he's introduced, because telling Thingol who Angrod is requires mentioning Olwë and Finwë)
*makes sad noises*
*tells of Morgoth's attack on the Two Trees and the Darkening of Valinor*
*reveals that Olwë and Finwë are both dead and in the Halls of Mandos*
*but hey, we're here now, and we've come to help!*
In doing so, Angrod is allowing his listeners to conclude that Morgoth is at fault for all the evils he just recounted, but he can very easily do that in such a way that he never says Morgoth killed Olwë. No one would think to ask for another villain (at this point in the story). I'm not sure we want to 'reveal' all of this up front, but doing so is one option.

An alternative is for him to speak of Olwë in the past tense, and when asked how he currently is, say he does not know. One could speak of Alqualondë, and the harbor, and the ships, and the Teleri's life on the shores....without speaking of recent events. Maybe we do want Angrod to be that secretive, but can he really manage that without flat-out lying about Olwë's death?

It's really difficult for me to see how Olwë would just....not come up at all during this conversation.

4) Concealing that the Host of Fingolfin and the Host of Fëanor reached Middle Earth in different ways is not going to be at all easy if Círdan saw their separate Hosts. Círdan knows how small the fleet was; he sees how big the Hosts are - he knows that they did not all come over in those ships all at once. He may conclude that there was ferrying involved. But if he saw the separate Hosts...even if they are making nice and pretending that all is well between them, they do have to acknowledge that they aren't, you know, together together. A physical separation is painfully obvious - the crossing of the Helcaraxë accounts for that. That's one reason why this would not be an easy secret to keep.

5) Having the crossing of the Helcaraxë revealed shows the dedication of the Host of Fingolfin in reaching Middle Earth to help the Sindar in their war against Morgoth. The Host of Fingolfin will *want* this truth to come out at some point. They're also quite proud of their accomplishment in reaching Middle Earth without ships. So, how does it come up without mentioning the Kinslaying, the Doom, or Fëanor's betrayal? One option is that the Host of Fingolfin doesn't lie at all - they crossed the Ice because the ships were burned. They are not revealing the treachery of the Host of Fëanor, but they aren't denying the truth of what happened, either. They're leaving out the part where they were betrayed, but otherwise telling the story exactly as it happened. They were on the far shore waiting for ships that would never return, and so they decided to cross the Ice to reach Middle Earth on their own. *When* they tell this story probably does have some wiggle room, but they would totally own up to this long before they would breath a word of the Kinslaying or the Doom of Mandos.

Since we want the Sindar to only slowly piece together the history of the Kinslaying, we should spread out which pieces of the puzzle are revealed when. Angrod's initial meeting with Thingol should only reveal what he *has* to reveal in that conversation, not everything about the past that wasn't strictly forbidden ground.

So, I could see a scenario where we reveal:
1) 'We came to fight Morgoth!' when the Sindar and Noldor first meet. (Abbreviated version of the Darkening of Valinor)
2) The deaths of Finwë and Olwë (fuller version of the Darkening of Valinor) when Angrod meets Thingol. Justified delay in wanting to tell this news directly to Elwë rather than to allow rumors to reach him?
3) Sindar have too many questions; Noldor have too few answers at the Feast of Reuniting. Thuringwethil and Sauron do their best to sow discord and mistrust between all parties. Galadriel and Celeborn have a heart-to-heart?
4) Galadriel tells Melian about the Silmarils, and how they were the cause of Finwë's death, and where they are now. Melian shares this news with Thingol.
5) Rumors spread, in part fueled by Thuringwethil. These rumors emphasize the divisions and mistrust between the Host of Fingolfin and the Fëanoreans, trying to erode that alliance. Angband knows that the Fëanoreans arrived before the Host of Fingolfin, and tries to cast that in the most suspicious light possible. Sindar reach the (charitable) conclusion that the Host of Fingolfin was cut off from Middle Earth when Morgoth attacked the ships, and then crossed the Ice to reach Middle Earth. Sauron seeks out the truth of the matter.
6) Sauron, who knows that it was no force of Morgoth who burned the ships, accuses Fëanor of having done so. Círdan hears this rumor and is deeply disturbed, because he knows those were Teleri ships, and this implies that Fëanor killed the Teleri sailors! He sends news to Thingol immediately.
7) Thingol confronts Angrod, accusing him of being a slayer of kin. Angrod angrily reveals the full magnitude of the kinslaying, and places the guilt on Fëanor, revealing Fëanor's betrayal at the shipburning that caused the Host of Fingolfin to become stranded and have to cross the Ice on their own. So, now Thingol knows there was a kinslaying, and it's so much worse than Sauron's rumors implied.​

That pushes the reveal of the crossing of the Helcaraxë back to after the Feast of Reuniting, but I don't think it can wait much longer than that, if for no other reason then that Morgoth/Sauron/Gothmog are well aware that it happened, and Círdan was in the north when the Host of Fingolfin arrived. It's still artificially delayed, but that was the best I could come up with.


Faelivrin, I can make a note to the Execs that you feel the topic of the crossing of the Helcaraxë should not be discussed with the Sindar until Thingol confronts Angrod about the Kinslaying. But I think Corey Olsen is aware of your thoughts on this topic from the last session? And tomorrow's session will be focusing on Celeborn and Galadriel, so more Sindar/Noldor stuff will come up, but this topic may or may not be revisited. We shall see.
 
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amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Sample dialogue

S: "So how did the ships come to be burned?"

N (not a Feanorean); "I wasn't there [true], but I hear it was awful [true]. I don't wish to speak more of it [VERY true]"

S (who isn't an asshole): "Ah, I see."


Sample dialogue

S: "So, how did the ships come to be burned?"

N (a Feanorean): "Alas, poor Amros! Taken by the flames! [true] Thinking of that night brings it all back [true]." (cries a little)

S: "Oh I'm so sorry. I'll spread the word that we should tread carefully around that subject!"

Also, let us take these examples of dialogue as evidence why I belong in the planning/big picture stage and not in the script writing stage of this project hahahahahahaha
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I think the proposal is that the Noldor will be telling truths 'from a certain point of view' during this season. They won't be outright lying, but their intention is to mislead/deceive.

There are many clever stories with examples of someone deceiving their interlocutors without technically lying*. Pick any myth with a Trickster in it. That's what we're going for. The audience will be 'in' on the deception, because they know very well what happened. The Sindar may appear naive, but hopefully they will seem good-willed, not foolish. The goal is not to paint the Noldor as 'clever' with the double-speech, but rather to show the building goodwill of the Sindar completely dashed when the magnitude of the deception is revealed. Sure, the kinslaying is shocking, but it's more shocking when they were interacting with these folks for a century without knowing it.

It's like if you suddenly find out your neighbor of 15 years is a registered sex offender. Sure, the info was publicly available. You could have checked any time. He didn't *lie* to you by not mentioning this, it just...never came up in conversation. But it would feel even more shocking to find out news like this about someone you know very well, rather than to have found out as soon as you met your neighbor.

The Sindar feel betrayed and lied to, and they're not wrong to feel that way. The Noldor were actively deceiving them. They can justify it by saying the wrongs are in the past, or that Fëanor is dead, or that they didn't actually lie, but....


* As an example, the sufi in this story does not lie about the location of the snake, though he certainly is concealing that fact:
http://www.bmf.org/qa/snake-like-qualities-in-others/
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I think it’s instructive to read Frodo’s interaction with Faramir in the LotR, and remember that Faramir’s attitude towards lying and honesty is something the Eldar taught the Dúnedain and take seriously themselves (I’ll look up that citation if asked.) Faramir’s attitude boils down to:

1. Concealing the truth (lying by omission) isn’t wrong. Frodo did as Gandalf would want. Faramir later tries to conceal the One from Denethor.
2. Snaring even an Orc in a falsehood is wrong.
3. 'Then you would grieve to learn that Boromir is dead?' is a hypothetical question, not a statement. But it would still be a falsehood, if Boromir wasn’t dead.

This story is also, by the way, a demonstration of why it’s risky to volunteer unnecessary information when trying to keep secrets. Faramir wouldn’t have put Frodo in such a terribly tight spot if Frodo hadn’t named Boromir as his former companion, or mentioned the rhyme about Isildur’s Bane. Frodo didn’t know mentioning Boromir was that risky... but the Noldor certainly do know the risks.


@amysrevenge, your dialogue proposals are mostly plausible, and aren’t “technically” outright lies. But ... I think they do show the Noldor piecing together fragments of the “truth” to create a story that is definitely false. It’s the sort of lying that Morgoth does quite often. I think it’s rules-lawyery, and a falsehood. I’m not comfortable with the Noldor telling falsehoods when they don’t have to. And volunteering the Helkaraxe story if they don’t have to is a foolish risk, because the Noldo has no way to know the Sinda will fall for their lying story. The risk is still that the entire Kinslaying comes out if the conversation goes wrong.


Numbered responses to @MithLuin :

1. Yes, that’s what the Noldor have to do.

2. Círdan will see camps on the two sides of the lake, yes. He will not see Fingolfin stepping off the Helkaraxë, being in the wrong place at the time and distracted by the Moonrise. When the Sun rises, Fingolfin and company are in Dor Daedeloth and promptly come back and set up camp. Círdan will see three groups, two of which were camped while the third was off doing something brave in the North. (One camp is the folk of Fingolfin who’re injured from the Helkaraxë or fighting Orcs, IIRC.) Círdan won’t immediately know that they came separately, unless he’s suspicious of them, thinks they’re dishonest, and sits down to do a bunch of math to count them and estimate the draught of those ships and... why is Círdan so darn suspicious all of the sudden? Is he 100% certain that not one ship’s remains sank into the sea after burning to charcoal? Most of them are probably in pieces. Well-shaped pieces, but not something that would give him an obvious, instant figure of the exact total passenger capacity without some archaeology and math. Even if the ships are mostly preserved and Círdan is a math genius, it’s very easy to conclude that the ships were used on multiple trips to ferry multiple loads of passengers. Círdan has no reason to assume that didn’t happen. (Also, the host of Fingolfin is smaller than it used to be.)

There is also a language barrier, and even Noldor need time to learn Sindarin. Until then, there’ll be no effective communication unless Finrod cheats with telepathy. Finrod is certainly upset about the Kinslaying and not yet reconciled with the Fëanorians, but he’s also:

A. Very freshly traumatized from the Helkaraxë, and not eager to bring it up to a complete stranger from another nation.
B. Not eager to get Fingolfin and Fingon in trouble for the Kinslaying.
C. Smart enough to know that the Helkaraxë leads to the burning of the ships leads to the Kinslaying.
D. Not the sort of person who makes up outright lies.

Finrod won’t be eager to volunteer dangerous secrets that he doesn’t have to volunteer. Círdan will realize there’s some separation or dispute or dislike between the camps, and Finrod won’t conceal that. But betrayal won’t pop into Círdan’s mind at once.

(Aside, this is becoming a decent argument that Tolkien’s late Celeborn-as-Teler-from-Alqualondë idea may have been impossible.)


3. I’m not convinced that Finwë and Olwë’s deaths have to come out right away. Olwë’s death leads so easily to the Kinslaying, which Angrod has to conceal. So, telling means a huge risk that he’ll be unable to conceal the Kinslaying, or unable to conceal it without telling an outright lie. Angrod feels conflicted, but he’ll be more uncomfortable about backing himself into an outright lie than about just sticking with lies-by-omission. Like Faramir, he’ll consider lies by omission less wrong. Galadriel might fudge once she trusts Celeborn, but Angrod won’t trust Thingol in the same way.

Angrod can honestly say he has no message to bring from Olwë to Elwë, if pushed. At the very worst he will try to let Thingol conclude Morgoth is responsible, but will not want to tell an outright lie. (If needed, saying that Morgoth slew Finwë would imply he slew Olwë with a smaller lie.)


4. I combined this with 2 above.

5. No, I do not agree that the Noldor will be eager to tell about their horrific traumatic ordeal to total strangers in a foreign country. They aren’t going to brag about it like it was a wrestling competition. They’re traumatized. Whether or not Elf trauma symptoms resemble human PTSD, Elves are still affected.

Since we want the Sindar to only slowly piece together the history of the Kinslaying
I can agree with this, at least. None of the Noldor’s secrets, including the Helkaraxë and Olwë and Finwë’s deaths, can be freely volunteered by Angrod when he first meets Thingol. My proposed chronology:


1) 'We came to fight Morgoth!' when the Sindar and Noldor first meet. The Darkening of Valinor isn’t brought up yet because the Sindar never even saw the Trees. Plus there’s a language barrier. Círdan assumes the Noldor were ferried over in one load or several loads. At first the Noldor are too traumatized to mention the Helkaraxë. Later they’re reunited and even more determined to keep secrets.
2) Angrod tells Thingol of the Darkening of Valinor. He avoids telling outright lies, and does not want to invite Thingol to discover the Kinslaying. He’s still too traumatized to willingly tell of the Helkaraxë. He might reveal Olwë and/or Finwë’s deaths, if pushed.
3) Sindar have too many questions; Noldor have too few answers at the Feast of Reuniting. Thuringwethil and Sauron do their best to sow discord and mistrust between all parties, while spying. Sindar begin speculating.
4) Galadriel and Celeborn have a heart-to-heart at the Mereth. She reveals Eärwen (and Olwë? Finwë?) died. She doesn’t reveal the Kinslaying.
5) Galadriel tells Melian about the Silmarils, and about Finwë's death, and where they are now. Melian shares this news with Thingol.
6) Sindar keep asking questions. The Helkaraxë comes out slowly. Sindar reach the (charitable) conclusion that the Host of Fingolfin was cut off from Middle-earth when Morgoth attacked the ships, and then crossed the Ice to reach Middle-earth.
7) Sauron, Thuringwethil, and doppelgangers spy on the Noldor and get the whole ugly truth. Delighted, they spread vicious rumors. They accuse all the Noldor of Kinslaying and burning ships. Círdan hears these rumors and is deeply disturbed. He sends news to Thingol immediately.
8) Thingol confronts Finrod, Aegnor, and Angrod, accusing them of slaying kin and burning ships. Angrod angrily places the guilt on Fëanor, revealing Fëanor's betrayal at Losgar that forced the Host of Fingolfin to cross the Ice on their own. So, now Thingol knows that not all the Noldor were guilty of the Kinslaying and ship-burning.

I’m not entirely persuaded #6 is necessary. The Noldor will try not to invite the Sindar to ask awkward questions, and won’t want to be forced to tell outright lies. I could see it as plausible if a small child accidentally mentions it in mixed company. It shouldn’t to come out before the Mereth Aderthad, at the earliest.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I think the problem there is it's too general.


This is true. People who are traumatized will tend to avoid thinking about painful events, and that means avoiding talking about them is a common working strategy. But we're talking about what, 15,000 Elves here? All it takes is 1 Elf who handles the trauma in a different way and the story gets out there.
I basically agree. Not sure why you quote the way you do; it leaves out the point I was making, which was more or less the one you make here... :D
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I guess part of why I am struggling with this is because while certainly trauma can be difficult to speak of...it's not like no one ever does.

I've been to plenty of funerals. They're difficult and sad, and the family often struggles to get through parts where they have to get up and speak about the person they have lost. But...it's really not unusual for people to do so, even freshly grieving people. (Not everyone does, of course.) My father gave the eulogy for his own father at my grandfather's funeral. Granted, my grandfather died on his 93rd birthday, so this wasn't exactly the same kind of situation as a child who had died or something. But...it was still his father's death, and he still had to speak publicly about it. He's hardly the only person who has ever eulogized a parent in the week or so after the parent's death. Grief is...not always traumatic. Sometimes it's...just grief. And even when it is traumatic...it doesn't always silence you.

My twenty six year old cousin was killed in an accident while working alone on my great-uncle's farm. We had had a family party there every year for many years, and continued to do so after my cousin's death. His widow brought his son to that family party, the site where she had found her husband's dead body after he didn't answer her phone calls and hadn't returned home... less than a year later. I have to imagine that wasn't easy for her, but she had made a decision to make sure their son stayed in touch with his side of the family, and so...she did it. My cousin's brother, on the other hand, said that he will never set foot on that farm again. I can understand both reactions, and they both have my sympathy.

My sister did have a traumatic experience. It was private, so it's not like the whole world knew about it or anything. She wasn't in a situation where she had to disclose what happened. And yet...she chose to write about it and post it on her blog, mostly as a way to encourage anyone else going through a similar difficult experience. [In her case, it was physically grueling, emotionally isolating, and very scary. But there was nothing normal about the situation she was in.] Like, hey, surely it won't be as bad as *this*! So, yeah, she decided to share this with strangers:
http://seasonedspouse.com/birth-during-deployment/

If you happen to read that, you might notice that at one point she describes the sound of the tree tops shaking in the wind. A couple of years later, she was again in a situation where she heard palm trees shaking in the wind, and immediately the adrenaline kicked in and she was worried about her kids, even though they were right there and she knew there was nothing wrong. She knows enough about PTSD (she's a military spouse) to have recognized a response to a triggering stimuli when she experienced it. So, yeah...that was her trauma. She doesn't have PTSD (lucky for her, that trigger was a one-time deal). She wasn't using hyperbole when she described parts of this as the most difficult experience of her life. But...she's a writer. Part of how she processes things is by...writing.

(And for anyone who did read it, for her fourth birth, the hospital served her a steak and lobster dinner afterward - she much preferred that experience!)

Also, I don't know if you know any soldiers who have experienced battle, but it is certainly not true that none of them brag about the experience as a way of dealing with it. I am not suggesting that it's healthy to talk about how good you are at killing people after being in combat...but it does happen (especially if alcohol is involved ).


I am fine with portraying the Noldor as haunted by what is behind them. I understand and recognize that they would be reluctant to share details of their recent past - it's unpleasant and difficult and horrific and shameful (depending on which part). I am not comfortable with portraying the majority of the Noldor as traumatized into silence years later. Some, probably, yes. [Of our named characters, I see Turgon as a 'he never spoke of it again' type, and Idril as a 'she was a shy, quiet child, not her former vivacious self.'] But not all. And not primarily by the Helcaraxë. The Darkening of Valinor and the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos were all pretty seriously bad events. Angrod had experienced the death of both his grandfathers and his mother in quick succession before he ever set foot on the Helcaraxe. I have trouble thinking that a group has processed and dealt with those things, but is still TOO SOON about the Helcaraxë. Also, I would expect there to be very tight bonds with a group who went through such a grueling experience together. That solidarity would make them close ranks against outsiders if necessary...but that is a very different thing from being too traumatized to speak of it.

In other words, if the Noldor as a whole are silent about the crossing of the Helcaraxë, it would be because they *choose* to be, for political reasons, to help maintain all the cover stories they need to maintain, not simply because they're traumatized and unable to speak up.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
We've been through this now a few times.

You have to differentiate individual trauma from collective trauma. People who experience trauma collectively will try to 1) find physical safety, 2) find out what has happened to people they care about, 3) make sense of what has happened. If they sense that their own life, or a loved one's life, has been threatened and they have been unable to deal with the situation, they will risk developing long term stress, but if they make it through, the third point (making sense of it) will become important. And to make sense of things, people can't not talk about it. Think about the assassination of JFK. People are trying to make sense of it even today, and the talking began immidiately and has continued. People are talking about the Titanic. So, let's assume that the Noldor talk about the crossing. Among themselves. (And as has been established, all of them aren't traumatised.) They might be wary of talking to strangers, and in the beginning, they will probably not talk to the Sindar about it. But then they become friends. From that point on, it will be hard not to mention something about it, since they otherwise will be forced to lie. They can talk little about it, but they will have to be open about the fact that they walked instead of talking the ships across.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I am very frustrated to make the same points over and over again, and feel like nobody will even acknowledge any of my concerns. I feel like all of my concerns and points are being completely ignored. That's why we keep "going over" it. If anyone would address my concerns I wouldn't have to repeat them anymore. Amysrevenge is the only person here who has addressed one of my concerns.

I am not comfortable with portraying the majority of the Noldor as traumatized into silence years later.
Please acknowledge that I am not against them talking to each other occasionally, or telling the Sindar eventually. I am against volunteering it to total strangers in a foreign country, only a few years after it happened. Remember that for an Elf, 1 year is like less than 1 month for us. There is a big difference between fellow Noldor who suffered the same thing, fellow Noldor who caused that suffering and deserve to be chewed out, and completely foreign Sindarin strangers. I am against Angrod volunteering it to Thingol for absolutely no reason when he doesn't have to. Thingol is not a Noldo, he was not on the Grinding Ice, he didn't burn the ships, and frankly it's none of his business.

I have trouble thinking that a group has processed and dealt with those things, but is still TOO SOON about the Helcaraxë.
The Helkaraxe happened after those things. And talking about them to fellow sufferers is very different from telling total strangers in a foreign country. Thingol is not a Noldo!

(You still don't have any example, Marie, of somebody sharing with the internet something without any factor of "never again" or encouraging others to speak up. None of those factors are relevant to the Helkaraxe, and it isn't something publicly known to the whole world like a battle. None of your examples are equivalent to what you want Angrod to do.)

And I am against the Noldor being stupid and taking stupid risks. As I have explained, revealing the Helkaraxe makes it extremely difficult to hid the Kinslaying. Not impossible as amysrevenge showed, if they're willing to tell outright lies -- which they don't want to do -- but still very difficult and dangerous. None of the Noldor are stupid enough to take unnecessary risks about that, except small children (but I doubt many 6 or 10-year olds were brought along). Angrod should not be stupid.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I am very frustrated to make the same points over and over again, and you will not even acknowledge any of my concerns. You are again completely ignoring all of my concerns and points.
Look, I’m wearing my Moderator hat!

I hope I don’t appear to be ignoring anyone. I think that there’s a certain degree of repetition in this thread (and I’m not innocent in that regard I think) and that we’re also talking past each other quite a bit.
My sense is that there’s no evidence of this being intentional. But let’s pay attention to these things and make sure we read each other’s posts carefully. Take care!
(Hat off)
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
No, it does not. Which was why I specifically mentioned that there might be a tendency to 'close ranks against outsiders' (such as the aforementioned Thingol, Círdan, and Celeborn) in the next sentence.

I know you don't think I am listening to you or responding to your concerns. I am sorry that this exchange has been frustrating. I did rework the entire storyline of the reveal of the Kinslaying to not mention the crossing of the Helcaraxë until after the Mereth Aderthad and try to show how that would work. I couldn't make it as late as the final reveal of the Kinslaying to Thingol (in part because Angband already knows about it and it does not carry the guilt of the rebellion or the Kinslaying with it). I have come up with multiple reasons why the Noldor might choose not to share this information, and tried to explain their hesitance.

I remain unconvinced that 'trauma!' is a sufficient reason or explanation for silence on their part. That doesn't mean there can't be silence.

You remain unconvinced that any hint of the Crossing of the Helcaraxë could be made public without immediately leading to revealing the betrayal at Losgar and the Kinslaying.

We've all made our cases. At this point, I am ready to drop the topic until later, because there seems to be a lot of wheel-spinning. Let's see what happens as we plan the rest of the season.

You still don't have any example, Marie, of somebody sharing with the internet something without any factor of "never again" or encouraging others to speak up. None of those factors are relevant to the Helkaraxe, and it isn't something publicly known to the whole world like a battle. None of your examples are equivalent to what you want Angrod to do.
Well, I did post my sister's blog post. It's a personal trauma, one not known by others unless she chooses to share it with them. It's not an issue of reporting it or any kind of 'never again!' or asking others to speak out. What happened to her was traumatic and unfortunate, but not really the kind of situation where you immediately look to place blame. She shared her story so that others who are facing a difficult and scary situation, (but hopefully not the same situation she faced!), can be encouraged as they face their own ordeal in a, hey, look, you can do it, you can get through, and it probably won't be anywhere near this bad! So there is a sense of solidarity and encouragement, but not an expectation that any of her readers will be giving birth alone in a hurricane in a hospital that loses power. Just that they might, like her, be giving birth while their husband is deployed.

...just as those listening to elves in the Host of Fingolfin would not be expected to be facing the passage of the Helcaraxë, but might have their own ordeals that they are facing.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
At this point, I am ready to drop the topic until later, because there seems to be a lot of wheel-spinning. Let's see what happens as we plan the rest of the season.
It was relevant to today's podcast. I think it's likely to come up again in the Villains Storyline discussion (Jan 25?) because what the rumors say depends on what the Noldor already deliberately told Thingol and Cirdan. Are you saying that we maybe don't have to solve it yet, or asking us to take a break from the subject, not reply at all?
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I am saying that it might be beneficial to consider other topics and return to this one later.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Galadriel and Celeborn's story arc, as detailed in Session 4-05:

1) Celeborn sees Galadriel among the camp of the Noldor at Mithrim and recognizes that she is a force to be reckoned with. They don't officially meet, though. (He 'notices' her; she doesn't really notice him.)

2) Galadriel goes to Menegroth of her own volition early in the season in an attempt to take charge of the public relations between the Sindar and the Noldor. She knows Thingol is a relative (her great-uncle she never met), but her motivation is clearly political leadership at this point.

3) When Galadriel arrives in Menegroth, she looks into Melian's eyes and has a crisis of self-doubt. She has been mostly putting aside the (recent) past and not dealing with it, but now she is a bit overwhelmed by her own cooperation with those who are guilty of rebellion and kinslaying. Melian recognizes that there is pain and darkness in Galadriel's past, but gets only an impression of Galadriel's emotional state, no details.

4) Galadriel gives up her political ambitions and goes to live with Finrod (essentially abdicating the role of ambassador immediately; Finrod and Fingolfin send Angrod to Menegroth instead.) She is depressed and disengaged from the doings of the other Noldor right at the time that they are establishing realms of their own in Beleriand (formerly, one of her most keen ambitions).

5) Finrod is worried about her, though he does not understand the reason for the change in her. He invites her to attend the Mereth Aderthad with him. While there, she meets Celeborn. He is surprised to see the change in her and wonders what has happened. While overlooking the harbor at Vinyamar, she tells him of the death of her mother Earwen in Valinor. His empathy and understanding draws her out of her shell a bit, and she is inspired to return to Menegroth.

6) Back in Menegroth, she becomes Melian's protege. Her goal is to learn from Melian how to be a good queen, but also to set aside her own ambitions for a time. She talks to Melian fairly openly, but does not share any of the Noldor's "secrets" with her. Celeborn also lives in Menegroth.

7) Eventually, Galadriel shares the full history of the Kinslaying with Celeborn. He is torn, as obviously this is a secret that his king should really know about, but just as obviously, it will tear apart the allegiance of the Sindar and the Noldor if he shares it. He decides to keep Galadriel's confidence, though he tells her that they will have to tell Thingol and Melian eventually.

8) Thingol finds out about the Kinslaying by other means. Galadriel and Celeborn have become engaged. Thingol is *furious* with Celeborn, and rages against him about how awful the Noldor are. Thingol eventually calms down, and declares the Ban of Quenya and Noldor jewels; anyone openly expressing Noldor culture is deemed an unrepentant kinslayer. The Noldor who are willing to reject their own culture can be forgiven.

9) Galadriel and Celeborn get married.

Season 5: Galadriel and Celeborn's honeymoon tour of Middle Earth. :)


And Phillip Menzies is right; we totally need a Gantt chart to plan out the season and put all of these storylines together! I don't have Microsoft Project, but I can probably do something basic in Excel.....

Edited to add in the bit about angry Thingol....
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
So how can we possibly show all that without delaying the whole Council of the Noldor and Fingolfin’s crowning until Episode 4 or 5 or 6, after the Mereth Aderthad? I liked the other ideas in the session but I'm quite concerned by delaying the Council until later in the season.

What do you think of my suggestion about Aredhel thinking Galadriel is a security risk?
I agree with it. Edit: I think Idril, not Aredhel, is the one to comment on Galadriel's ambition and danger to herself. Because Aredhel is so not a good judge of character.

I do want to address the unresolved problem of how much is revealed to the Sindar before the Mereth Aderthad, and respond to MithLuin.
 
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