Session 4.04 & 4.05 - Overarching Storylines

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
So I think that the crossers could talk about the crossing but refer to it in a summarising way, preferring not going into any particular detail.
Do you have a suggestion of how Angrod or others would word it in a way that would not in any way invite or risk Thingol (or other Sindar) asking questions about the burned ships, or questions that lead to the feud? I'm not sure if you're saying Angrod should or should not voluntarily tell Thingol when he doesn't have to.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Do you have a suggestion of how Angrod or others would word it in a way that would not in any way invite or risk Thingol (or other Sindar) asking questions about the burned ships, or questions that lead to the feud? I'm not sure if you're saying Angrod should or should not voluntarily tell Thingol when he doesn't have to.
They will ask, regardless. I've found that when a narrative gives general descriptions, the person being told will inevitably ask questions.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Do you have a suggestion of how Angrod or others would word it in a way that would not in any way invite or risk Thingol (or other Sindar) asking questions about the burned ships, or questions that lead to the feud? I'm not sure if you're saying Angrod should or should not voluntarily tell Thingol when he doesn't have to.
As I tried to say, I don’t think they talk about it unless asked. They say they’ve come because of Morgoth, he’s the Great Enemy, they have to fight him. I think that, if asked about the ice, they could say that yes, they went across the ice, and that it was hard, very hard. If I was Angrod, I’d focus on Morgoth and the killing of the Trees, things that would unite Noldor and Sindar.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
As I tried to say, I don’t think they talk about it unless asked. They say they’ve come because of Morgoth, he’s the Great Enemy, they have to fight him. I think that, if asked about the ice, they could say that yes, they went across the ice, and that it was hard, very hard. If I was Angrod, I’d focus on Morgoth and the killing of the Trees, things that would unite Noldor and Sindar.
Don't forget the killing of Finwe.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I don’t think the Sindar will be interested in details of the crossing. What details? Why demand details about deaths of loved ones?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
In the book the death of Finwe specifically doesn't come up until Melian wheedles it out of Galadriel. It doesn't necessarily lead to the Silmarils (no Sinda has ever heard of them) but it does lead directly to the feud if Angrod mentions it before Maedhros cedes the crown. If the ambassador says "our King was killed" the next question is always going to be "who is King now?"
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I don’t think the Sindar will be interested in details of the crossing. What details? Why demand details about deaths of loved ones?
It's just something that I've found in my own experience that when a generic description of an event is given, people inevitably ask more questions.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
In the book the death of Finwe specifically doesn't come up until Melian wheedles it out of Galadriel. It doesn't necessarily lead to the Silmarils (no Sinda has ever heard of them) but it does lead directly to the feud if Angrod mentions it before Maedhros cedes the crown. If the ambassador says "our King was killed" the next question is always going to be "who is King now?"
I think that, in the minds of many Noldor, Finwë was killed because of the Silmarils. You’d have to kind of lie to talk about it as if it happened in other circumstances.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
It's just something that I've found in my own experience that when a generic description of an event is given, people inevitably ask more questions.
This is exactly why Fingolfin would probably forbid them from bringing up the Helkaraxe in the first place, and why Angrod would be a fool to bring it up. If Thingol doesn't know they crossed the Ice, he won't ask Angrod any questions about it. If Thingol does know they crossed, he won't pry into the painful memories but he will ask why they did it at all.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
This is exactly why Fingolfin would probably forbid them from bringing up the Helkaraxe in the first place, and why Angrod would be a fool to bring it up. If Thingol doesn't know they crossed the Ice, he won't ask Angrod any questions about it. If Thingol does know they crossed, he won't pry into the painful memories but he will ask why they did it at all.
So what's the story going to be as to how they got across? I don't think the Elves can fly.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
In Season 3, we had Cirdan and Celeborn assuming that all the Noldor came over in boats and then the Orcs burned them. We didn't show them analyzing how many Noldor would fit on the boats or how many trips it would take. They didn't see Fingolfin's host arrive separately and have no idea there were two separate hosts.

As long as nobody mentions the Helkaraxe, the Sindar will assume all the Noldor fit on the boats and came together, and the ships were burned by Orcs after all the Noldor crossed. They have no reason to suspect a feud or deliberate burning, so they won't ask. Unless Angrod volunteers that some of them decided for no apparent reason they'd rather die on the Ice than use the ships.

And just in case some of Fingolfin's host are feeling like they shouldn't have to defend the Feanorians for burning the ships, consider that people who received a freely-given gift of special ships from Olwe, or brought Olwe's folk with them, would not burn the ships on purpose. The burning comes out, and the Kinslaying will likely come out too, or at least the theft of the boats from Alqualonde. (Cirdan recognized them as Olwe's work in Season 3.)

Plus the feud isn't just something they want to bury so they can unite against Morgoth. Admitting that "our allies were so unpleasant that we stopped trusting or talking to them, and then they betrayed us, but we're still allies" is a poor way to make new allies.
 
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amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I think the problem there is it's too general.
People who are traumatised will try to avoid thinking about painful events, and that means avoiding talking about them is a working strategy.
This is true. People who are traumatized will tend to avoid thinking about painful events, and that means avoiding talking about them is a common working strategy. But we're talking about what, 15,000 Elves here? All it takes is 1 Elf who handles the trauma in a different way and the story gets out there.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I see what you're saying, amysrevenge. That would make sense eventually (after 1-2 decades had passed), if that person had regular contact with the Sindar and the Noldor weren't trying to keep secrets. But they simply can't mention the Helkaraxe without the burning of the ships coming up very soon, followed by the Kinslaying. It's not safe to talk about.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think the problem there is it's too general.


This is true. People who are traumatized will tend to avoid thinking about painful events, and that means avoiding talking about them is a common working strategy. But we're talking about what, 15,000 Elves here? All it takes is 1 Elf who handles the trauma in a different way and the story gets out there.
I agree. You’d need large-scale mind control to keep everyone quiet.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Or their own self-interest in not causing the more-numerous Sindar to hate the Noldor.


Instead of repeating a point that nobody will acknowledge, I will ask:
Please propose an actual dialogue in which a Noldo explains that only some used ships and the rest used the Grinding Ice, and show why and how the Sindar never ask any questions that lead to the burning of the ships. What dialogue should I write in the script that makes logical sense without immediately revealing all the Noldor's secrets? Can you propose a dialogue in which the two Elves don't both look stupid? Real dialogue, not vague handwaving.

I am never going to be convinced if your only argument is to ignore all of my concerns.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Or their own self-interest in not causing the more-numerous Sindar to hate the Noldor.


Instead of repeating a point that keeps being ignored, I will ask:
Please propose an actual dialogue in which a Noldo explains that only some used ships and the rest used the Grinding Ice, and show why and how the Sindar never ask any questions that lead to the burning of the ships. What dialogue should I write in the script that makes logical sense without immediately revealing all the Noldor's secrets? Can you propose a dialogue in which the two Elves don't both look stupid? Real dialogue, not vague handwaving.

I am never going to be convinced if your only argument is to ignore all of my concerns.
I have my own concerns that it just isn’t possible to get all of the Noldor to keep mum about it, because people (and Elves) make mistakes. And by not saying anything, they’re lying by omission.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
So you're opposed to them lying by omission. So your proposal is that Angrod tells Thingol, the first time they meet, every detail about the Kinslaying and that their allies and friends murdered Olwe and Earwen? That's your proposal? Because anything short of that is lying by omission. If the Noldor aren't allowed to conceal anything at all, then Angrod has to tell Thingol every single detail immediately, and we have to radically rewrite the entire Silmarillion.


It is very easy to get all of the Noldor to agree to something that is very much in their best interests, because Noldor are not disabled children with an IQ of 20. Unless you're arguing that some of the Noldor have a goal of deliberately sabotaging the alliance with Thingol, the war against Morgoth, and all hope of their own survival? That there are traitors who are already allied with Morgoth? Or suicidal?


You will never convince me that the Noldor are that stupid. Even my cat is smart enough to not confess to pooping on the carpet. Despite the fact that I've never threatened to kill him for pooping anywhere.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I see what you're saying, amysrevenge. That would make sense eventually (after 1-2 decades had passed), if that person had regular contact with the Sindar and the Noldor weren't trying to keep secrets. But they simply can't mention the Helkaraxe without the burning of the ships coming up very soon, followed by the Kinslaying. It's not safe to talk about.
I think the thought (as presented in the most recent session) is that the truth comes out in waves, and each successive wave includes more and more trauma that the Noldor endured to get across the sea which only increases the Sindar appreciation for them, until finally the last wave comes in and topples it all to the ground. The Sindar have no reason to expect any duplicity or foul play at all - everything the Noldor did, as far as the story as they see it goes, makes them better.

(some of this Wave order I'm making up below might be wrong). But the point is that the time between these waves of truth gets shorter and shorter. The Sindar don't have a lot of time to stew on exactly what the crossing of the Helcaraxe means. Before they can get to the point of "these people who are really awesome and came over here to just save us: let's examine their story for contradictions in minute detail and see if what we believe about them is unaccountably wrong", the next wave hits.

Wave 1: They came across the sea in ships to battle Morgoth, and (we assume) were immediately attacked and the ships were destroyed by Orcs

Wave 2: Poor dead Finwe, slain by Morgoth! Those brave Noldor, coming all the way over here to avenge their king, the beloved friend of Thingol.

Wave 3: The Helcaraxe! OMG can you even imagine what they went through, just (we assume) to deliver us from our Enemy, and get their vengeance?

Wave 4: They BURNED the ships themselves? WTF man, I thought you were cool. Those ships were awesome. Wait, why would they even do that? Unless....
Wave 4.5: They did WHAT at Alqualonde? Those assholes.
 
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