Session 4.04 & 4.05 - Overarching Storylines

[amysrevenge]

Galadriel and Celeborn's story arc, as detailed in Session 4-05:

1) Celeborn sees Galadriel among the camp of the Noldor at Mithrim and recognizes that she is a force to be reckoned with. They don't officially meet, though. (He 'notices' her; she doesn't really notice him.)

2) Galadriel goes to Menegroth of her own volition early in the season in an attempt to take charge of the public relations between the Sindar and the Noldor. She knows Thingol is a relative (her great-uncle she never met), but her motivation is clearly political leadership at this point.

3) When Galadriel arrives in Menegroth, she looks into Melian's eyes and has a crisis of self-doubt. She has been mostly putting aside the (recent) past and not dealing with it, but now she is a bit overwhelmed by her own cooperation with those who are guilty of rebellion and kinslaying. Melian recognizes that there is pain and darkness in Galadriel's past, but gets only an impression of Galadriel's emotional state, no details.

4) Galadriel gives up her political ambitions and goes to live with Finrod (essentially abdicating the role of ambassador immediately; Finrod and Fingolfin send Angrod to Menegroth instead.) She is depressed and disengaged from the doings of the other Noldor right at the time that they are establishing realms of their own in Beleriand (formerly, one of her most keen ambitions).

5) Finrod is worried about her, though he does not understand the reason for the change in her. He invites her to attend the Mereth Aderthad with him. While there, she meets Celeborn. He is surprised to see the change in her and wonders what has happened. While overlooking the harbor at Vinyamar, she tells him of the death of her mother Earwen in Valinor. His empathy and understanding draws her out of her shell a bit, and she is inspired to return to Menegroth.

6) Back in Menegroth, she becomes Melian's protege. Her goal is to learn from Melian how to be a good queen, but also to set aside her own ambitions for a time. She talks to Melian fairly openly, but does not share any of the Noldor's "secrets" with her. Celeborn also lives in Menegroth.

7) Eventually, Galadriel shares the full history of the Kinslaying with Celeborn. He is torn, as obviously this is a secret that his king should really know about, but just as obviously, it will tear apart the allegiance of the Sindar and the Noldor if he shares it. He decides to keep Galadriel's confidence, though he tells her that they will have to tell Thingol and Melian eventually.

8) Thingol finds out about the Kinslaying by other means. Galadriel and Celeborn have become engaged. Thingol declares the Ban of Quenya and Noldor jewels; anyone openly expressing Noldor culture is deemed an unrepentant kinslayer.

9) Galadriel and Celeborn get married.

Season 5: Galadriel and Celeborn's honeymoon tour of Middle Earth.


And Phillip Menzies is right; we totally need a Gantt chart to plan out the season and put all of these storylines together! I don't have Microsoft Project, but I can probably do something basic in Excel.....

I still like one or two of my ideas better, but some of these are great improvements over what I put up too. I think this is a pretty good timeline, and would be happy with this outcome.

The part that was in the session but is missing from the summary above is that Celeborn bears the brunt of Thingol's immediate rage - through shouting at Celeborn, who stoically endures it, he eventually tempers his own much harsher initial reaction (The fiends must be expunged from the continent!) down to "just" the Ban.

 

[MithLuin]

Ah, good catch, Amysrevenge! Edited to reflect that.

Angeleyes, I like that idea very much, but I'm not sure when exactly we would have a chance to make that observation now. Because, yes, politically ambitious Galadriel *is* someone who should be called out (possibly by Idril), but...we're letting Galadriel have a personal crisis and put her ambitions on hold almost immediately. We seem to have replaced this with a worried-about-depressed-Galadriel conversation between Finrod and Fingolfin.

The best place for the 'word of concern' about politcally-ambitious Galadriel would either be in Episode 1, before she goes to Doriath and while she is orchestrating things in the camp of Fingolfin...or much, much later in the Season, when she marries Celeborn.

Idril would probably still be too young to say anything like that in Episode 1, so we'd probably have to use Aredhel if we did it then. And Idril is an adult later, but would she really think that about Galadriel at that point? I'm just not sure. An added complication is that both Aredhel and Idril are going to wind up locked away in Gondolin with no further contact with Galadriel during this season. Basically, we have to determine exactly *when* the Noldor are going to have reason to worry about Galadriel's ambitions...and I'm not sure there's a good time to place that conversation. But if we can work it in, I think it would be a good way to show that Galadriel's own close relatives consider her a potential-next-Fëanor. If not Idril, who can make that observation in the very first episode of the Season?

So how can we possibly show all that without delaying the whole Council of the Noldor and Fingolfin’s crowning until Episode 4 or 5 or 6, after the Mereth Aderthad? I liked the other ideas in the session but definitely not delaying the Council until late in the season.

Just to be clear, no one is suggesting that we delay the Council or that we wait until Episode 4-6 to crown Fingolfin, or to have any of that happen after the Mereth Aderthad!

I realize that some of Corey Olsen's earlier statements in the session (such as Galadriel's brothers not seeing her for a couple of decades) don't match with the timeline. It's clear he wasn't making such statements as a request for a passage of time at that juncture, but rather thinking aloud about how to handle Galadriel's introduction to and role in Doriath.

As things currently are, based on the list I posted in this thread, item #5 occurs during the Mereth Aderthad, which is meant to be in Episode 5 (thus far). So, presumably, the other events happen earlier.

If I had to tie all of this together right this second, I would say that Episode 1 includes the meeting of the Sindar and the Noldor (which would have a scene where Celeborn catches a glimpse of Galadriel in full-fledged political leader role). *IF* one of Galadriel's close relatives is going to worry about her ambitions getting the best of her, now would be the time for that.

In Episode 2, Galadriel would set out for Menegroth, meet Melian, have a crisis of character, and return to Finrod at Mithrim.

In Episode 3, Finrod and Fingolfin would discuss the need to send someone else to Doriath, and choose Angrod.

In Episode 4, Angrod would return in time for the Council where Caranthir gets mad at him. The Noldor would choose their realms. Fingolfin and Maedhros would have the discussion about the Fëanoreans moving into the East. Galadriel is too depressed to take any part in this, and does not choose a territory to be her own realm.

Episode 5 - Mereth Aderthad.


Fingolfin would be acclaimed as High King either in Episode 2-3, depending on other issues. I realize that one of the potential issues here is that it becomes the Galadriel show, especially early on in the season. But considering the role we're giving her in processing the actions of the Noldor and making alliance with the Sindar, it's probably okay to focus on her upfront while other characters move to the background (so long as we don't push them *too* far back). I am going to support this being the Finrod and Turgon show later in the season.

So, for instance, in Episode 2, Galadriel's visit to Menegroth would likely be a B-plotline, and the real focus of the episode would be at Mithrim. Giving Galadriel 4 scenes (one in each act) would tell her story, while not pushing aside the other storylines we need to tell.

Some of the items on this list are quite frankly single scenes, not a full-blown storyline for an episode. We'll have to figure out how all of the pieces fit together once we have multiple storylines worked out. If one particular episode is 'light' on anything happening, and other episodes seem to have too many 'main' storylines, we'll have to shift some events around.

So, yes, I do see the potential concern for 'we're trying to do too much at once!' in the early episodes of the Season. But, I think we can work it out.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Ah, good catch, Amysrevenge! Edited to reflect that.

Angeleyes, I like that idea very much, but I'm not sure when exactly we would have a chance to make that observation now. Because, yes, politically ambitious Galadriel *is* someone who should be called out (possibly by Idril), but...we're letting Galadriel have a personal crisis and put her ambitions on hold almost immediately. We seem to have replaced this with a worried-about-depressed-Galadriel conversation between Finrod and Fingolfin.

The best place for the 'word of concern' about politcally-ambitious Galadriel would either be in Episode 1, before she goes to Doriath and while she is orchestrating things in the camp of Fingolfin...or much, much later in the Season, when she marries Celeborn.

Idril would probably still be too young to say anything like that in Episode 1, so we'd probably have to use Aredhel if we did it then. And Idril is an adult later, but would she really think that about Galadriel at that point? I'm just not sure. An added complication is that both Aredhel and Idril are going to wind up locked away in Gondolin with no further contact with Galadriel during this season. Basically, we have to determine exactly *when* the Noldor are going to have reason to worry about Galadriel's ambitions...and I'm not sure there's a good time to place that conversation. But if we can work it in, I think it would be a good way to show that Galadriel's own close relatives consider her a potential-next-Fëanor. If not Idril, who can make that observation in the very first episode of the Season?



Just to be clear, no one is suggesting that we delay the Council or that we wait until Episode 4-6 to crown Fingolfin, or to have any of that happen after the Mereth Aderthad!

I realize that some of Corey Olsen's earlier statements in the session (such as Galadriel's brothers not seeing her for a couple of decades) don't match with the timeline. It's clear he wasn't making such statements as a request for a passage of time at that juncture, but rather thinking aloud about how to handle Galadriel's introduction to and role in Doriath.

As things currently are, based on the list I posted in this thread, item #5 occurs during the Mereth Aderthad, which is meant to be in Episode 5 (thus far). So, presumably, the other events happen earlier.

If I had to tie all of this together right this second, I would say that Episode 1 includes the meeting of the Sindar and the Noldor (which would have a scene where Celeborn catches a glimpse of Galadriel in full-fledged political leader role). *IF* one of Galadriel's close relatives is going to worry about her ambitions getting the best of her, now would be the time for that.

In Episode 2, Galadriel would set out for Menegroth, meet Melian, have a crisis of character, and return to Finrod at Mithrim.

In Episode 3, Finrod and Fingolfin would discuss the need to send someone else to Doriath, and choose Angrod.

In Episode 4, Angrod would return in time for the Council where Caranthir gets mad at him. The Noldor would choose their realms. Fingolfin and Maedhros would have the discussion about the Fëanoreans moving into the East. Galadriel is too depressed to take any part in this, and does not choose a territory to be her own realm.

Episode 5 - Mereth Aderthad.


Fingolfin would be acclaimed as High King either in Episode 2-3, depending on other issues. I realize that one of the potential issues here is that it becomes the Galadriel show, especially early on in the season. But considering the role we're giving her in processing the actions of the Noldor and making alliance with the Sindar, it's probably okay to focus on her upfront while other characters move to the background (so long as we don't push them *too* far back). I am going to support this being the Finrod and Turgon show later in the season.

So, for instance, in Episode 2, Galadriel's visit to Menegroth would likely be a B-plotline, and the real focus of the episode would be at Mithrim. Giving Galadriel 4 scenes (one in each act) would tell her story, while not pushing aside the other storylines we need to tell.

Some of the items on this list are quite frankly single scenes, not a full-blown storyline for an episode. We'll have to figure out how all of the pieces fit together once we have multiple storylines worked out. If one particular episode is 'light' on anything happening, and other episodes seem to have too many 'main' storylines, we'll have to shift some events around.

So, yes, I do see the potential concern for 'we're trying to do too much at once!' in the early episodes of the Season. But, I think we can work it out.

Mainly trying to give Aredhel something to do, since she doesn’t do much of note before going to Gondolin and encounters with Eol.

 

[MithLuin]

True, it will be very easy for her to drop into the background and be forgotten this season. We'll want her to be on screen at least a bit!

 

[Faelivrin]

So are the other topics on this thread still banned?

If I had to tie all of this together right this second, I would say that Episode 1 includes the meeting of the Sindar and the Noldor (which would have a scene where Celeborn catches a glimpse of Galadriel in full-fledged political leader role). *IF* one of Galadriel's close relatives is going to worry about her ambitions getting the best of her, now would be the time for that.

In Episode 2, Galadriel would set out for Menegroth, meet Melian, have a crisis of character, and return to Finrod at Mithrim.

In Episode 3, Finrod and Fingolfin would discuss the need to send someone else to Doriath, and choose Angrod.

In Episode 4, Angrod would return in time for the Council where Caranthir gets mad at him. The Noldor would choose their realms. Fingolfin and Maedhros would have the discussion about the Fëanoreans moving into the East. Galadriel is too depressed to take any part in this, and does not choose a territory to be her own realm.

Episode 5 - Mereth Aderthad.

But delaying the Council and Crowning until until Episode 4 is just what we can't afford to do. It means that we have to get rid of all of [the events which appear in episode 4 in my outline proposal]. Corey said he doesn't want to delay or cut the Council, but he is forcing us to do so anyway.

 

[MithLuin]

We will be discussing Eöl's storyline after we discuss the dwarves and petty dwarves, possibly as soon as next session. That conversation should go on the other thread, though.

I do not see any reason why Fingolfin cannot be crowned High King before Episode 4. Episode 2 or 3 is much more likely at this point.

The Council could certainly be at the beginning of Episode 4, causing the establishment of realms to take up the second half of the episode. Or, it could be at the end of Episode 3, leaving Episode 4 for other things.

All that was established during Friday's session was the sequence of events in Galadriel's storyline this season, and what character moments we want her to have. It is true that we are front-loading her story, but it is *not* true that we are forcing other stories back later. Most likely, Galadriel will spend the majority of Episodes 3 and 4 being withdrawn and depressed and not having much to do with the actual events of the episode.

If, at the end of the day, we have more than half the season's content happening 'before the Mereth Aderthad', then we will obviously have to restructure the Episode outlines to reflect that. There is no rule that says the Mereth Aderthad *must* be Episode 5. I don't think we'll have to move it, but if we do have to, we can. So let's continue to develop season-long storylines and see how we can make it all work together.

 

[Faelivrin]

Fingolfin would be acclaimed as High King either in Episode 2-3, depending on other issues.

The Council at which Fingolfin is crowned is the very same Council at which Angrod brings the words of Thingol and gets yelled at by Caranthir. SilmFilm can't just arbitrarily declare that the Council is broken into 2 sections which are separated by years of time or multiple episodes. That wouldn't make any more sense than the Council of Elrond taking a 7-year recess before deciding what to do with the Ring. Especially if, as Corey said, the Noldor have to go move to and set up their realms and build their castles before anyone even bothers to send a replacement messenger to Thingol. His words about settling Beleriand are going to be quite different if he's consulted after the Noldor have stolen a bunch of land without his say.

So are the other topics on this thread still banned?

Actually I was asking whether it's still banned to talk about not revealing the Kinslaying to Thingol and Cirdan.

 

[MithLuin]

I am really confused by this statement.

Maedhros heals the feud by begging forgiveness for the desertion at Araman and publicly renouncing his right to High Kingship.

Then Angrod goes to Doriath, thinking everything is forgiven and does not mention certain forbidden topics to Thingol.

Then there is a council, in which Angrod repeats Thingol's words and Caranthir gets angry and everyone realizes that the feud is merely on simmer, not totally forgiven. (And I agree, this council should come before the establishment of realms, which is when we intend to have it.)

These things may all happen in quick succession (in the same year, even), but it's not the same meeting we're talking about.

Unless you are saying that the crowning of Fingolfin should be a separate event from the scene where Maedhros gives up the High Kingship?

 

[Faelivrin]

Huh?

The Quenta Silmarillion tells... all the events of those chapters very out of order, and skips forwards and backwards in time constantly. The Grey Annals states very explicitly that the Noldor gathered for a Council. Angrod was sent to Doriath and the Council happened a year later, with Angrod and Fingolfin and Maedhros and Caranthir all attending.

There was only ever one Council. Not a series of mini-councils spread out randomly over the years, separated by years of other stuff.

I shared the timeline from the Grey Annals, repeatedly, before we even finished Season 3. You all read it and commented on it. People on this forum seemed to think it would be useful. You yourself even showed the timeline to the Hosts in Session 1. I keep trying to explain this and none of the Hosts believed me at all.

YS 1
Here the Moon and the Sun, wrought by the Valar after the death of the Trees, rose new in the heaven.
[...]
Therefore Fingolfin marched from the North unopposed through the fastness of the realm of Morgoth, [...]

2
Now Fingolfin, being of other temper than Feanor, and wary of the wiles of Morgoth, after sounding his challenge withdrew from Dor-Daedeloth and turned towards Mithrim, [...]

5
Here Fingon the Valian resolved to heal the feud that divided the Noldor, [...]

6
Now the Noldor, being again united, set a watch upon the borders of Dor-Daedeloth,
[...]
Beyond the Girdle of Melian those of Finrod's house were suffered to pass, for they could claim close kinship with King Thingol himself [...] Now Angrod was the first of the Exiles to come to Menegroth, as messenger of Inglor, and he spoke long with the King, telling him of the deeds of the Noldor in the north, and their numbers, and the ordering of their force; but being true and wisehearted and deeming all griefs now forgiven, he spoke naught of the deeds of Feanor save his valiant death.
And King Thingol hearkened, and he said to Angrod ere he went: 'Thus thou thalt speak for me to those that sent thee. In Hithlum the Noldor have leave to do as they will, and in Dor Thonion they may dwell [...]

7
Now the Noldor held council in Mithrim to ponder all such matters, and to resolve how they should deal in friendship with the Grey-elves,
[...]
To this council came Angrod out of Doriath bearing the words of King Thingol, and their welcome seemed cold to the Noldor.
[...]
But Caranthir, who loved not the sons of Finrod, and was the harshest of the brethren and the most quick to anger, cried aloud:
[...]
Therefore when the council came to the choosing of one to be the overlord of the Exiles and the head of all their princes,
[...]
But he restrained his brethren, saying to Fingolfin: 'If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the choice would come rightly to thee, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise.'
But the sons of Feanor departed then from the council, and soon after they left Mithrim and went eastward to the countries wide and wild between Himring and Lake Helevorn under Mount Rerir.

Those are real actual quotes typed while holding the book open (but all typos are mine). I am not making this up.

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, I own The War of the Jewels as well. I'm familiar with the Grey Annals.

Year 5 - Heal the Feud
Year 6 - Angrod in Doriath
Year 7 - Council

One issue with this is that Fingon's rescue of Maedhros alone is enough to reconcile the camps here. How? Fingon did the heroic work. If Maedhros comes back and says, yeah, thanks, and sorry so much about that ship thing, my dad was crazy....is that enough to resolve the issue and relieve the tension? It would seem to me that if you want words to resolve a situation like this, you need the action to back it up. And so, naturally...you would depict Maedhros abdicating at that time. There's a reason those get lumped together in the Quenta's telling of this.

And it is important that the two camps be reconciled before Angrod talks to Thingol. He is explicitly protecting Fëanoreans in that conversation. Since we showed him being particularly angry about the Helcaraxë...he has to be highly motivated to be an agent of peace here.

Waiting to decide the High Kingship until two years later when a council makes it clear that the Host of Fingolfin doesn't trust the Fëanoreans weakens everyone's agency in this. Then, it seems that Maedhros is merely paying lip-service to the others' choice (more like losing an election gracefully) and then picks up his toys and leaves.

In these early years, all of the Noldor are encamped at Mithrim. They are just starting to send out scouts and explore Beleriand, but their 'home base' is camps across the lake looking at one another. Because of this, we don't have to depict everything as one single official council meeting. But if we wanted to do this all at once, we can do that as well - it would likely be Episode 3.

 

[Faelivrin]

This is why I tried to contribute a proposed outline and hoped that others make feedback, to discuss these things before it was too late. I have raised my concerns on this forum many times that we should try to tell stories in the order they happened. I have been expressing my concerns for months now, ever since April in the Concerns About Season Four thread. I have tried to contribute to help organizing the Season, and tried to participate in planning conversations. All these months I didn't realize you disliked my suggestions. And I raised my concerns to Corey and he outright told me "I don't care".



I do prefer the version where Maedhros actively cedes the Kingship on his own initiative, I agree that it works better. But there's no reason for him to do it while he's still bedridden and barely conscious, long before they send any messenger to Doriath. He should do it publically in front of most of the Noldor, when he's well enough to attend a real, public council.

Why is it so unnatural to wait 2 years before having the Council? Tolkien clearly thought it made sense. 2 years is not a long wait for Elves (in my proposed outline it would have been shorter than 2 years). It's clear to me that they didn't have a council the week after Maedhros was rescued because they needed to decide how to interact with the Grey Elves and because Maedhros was not physically or emotionally well enough to attend any such meeting or deal with politics. You can't feasibly discuss the Kingship when one of the candidates is bedridden, kinda crazy, and maybe only half-conscious due to pain meds. And they can't feasibly demand that Maedhros back up his words with action when he's still not well enough to take any public actions. That doesn't mean Maedhros and Maglor didn't say anything conciliatory to other Noldor before then. He probably ordered the stolen goods and horses returned and apologized privately, before he was capable of apologizing publically at the Council.

(That is the chronology I depicted in my outline proposal (with no explicit dates or years) which I posted right here, in this thread. If you disliked my outline proposal so much why didn't you say so at the time? Or propose changes to it? We could have discussed it and worked out a compromise. Now it's too late. )



And please tell me MithLuin, am I still not allowed to discuss how to hide the Kinslaying from the Sindar? I do not want to ignore that topic until after the next podcast, like we have ignored this topic until it's too late. And I had wanted to address your own concerns.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

True, it will be very easy for her to drop into the background and be forgotten this season. We'll want her to be on screen at least a bit!

Especially since one of the Hosts has said that Aredhel is her favorite character. Wouldn’t want to waste her.

 

[MithLuin]

Faelivrin, my point remains that it would likely be beneficial to let the topic of the Noldor discussing the crossing of the Helcaraxë rest and come back to it later. Certainly, my intention is to not comment on it any further at this time. The next session is on January 11th and will focus on the dwarves and petty dwarves, possibly getting to Eöl as well.



I am not suggesting that Maedhros do anything political while he is bedridden/recuperating. Nor do I think there is a rush to send Angrod to Doriath, as we are going to spend the first two episodes sending Galadriel there instead. There is time between 'instantly' and 'two years later' for this to happen. I would not mind waiting two years, except for the following reasons:

1) The rift between the two hosts of the Noldor is meant to be healed in Year 5 of the chronology. The Fëanoreans, not the Host of Fingolfin, are at fault for the betrayal at Araman and the burning of the ships. The Host of Fingolfin has a legitimate grievance against the Fëanoreans. Thus, the healing of that feud cannot happen until the Fëanoreans make a gesture of repentance. Fingon's rescue of Maedhros is awesome, but nothing is 'healed' until Maedhros offers something to the Host of Fingolfin. The natural and most significant thing for him to offer...is the abdication of any claim to the High Kingship.

Is it possible for him to just say 'sorry'? Maybe, but that feels rather weak. Likewise, 'here's your stolen goods back' is a nice gesture, but in no way makes up for abandoning them in the first place or the crossing of the Grinding Ice. There needs to be some indication that the two groups are going to try to get along and move forward now. Reparations are more than giving back what you stole.

For cinematic and storytelling reasons, I think that is the time (sometime after Maedhros' rescue, when he is recovered, but before diplomatic relations with Thingol are established) to have the issue of the High Kingship of the Noldor resolved. Certainly, Tolkien thought this was the time to have the two Hosts of the Noldor reconciled to one another.

2) It is possible to delay until the end of the council two years later, when the Noldor are ready to carve out realms for themselves in Middle Earth. By doing so, a few things are lost. One, there is no initiative on Maedhros' part - it is clear that the majority Host of Fingolfin will support Fingolfin, and his own group is a minority, so all he can do is concede with grace or start a fight. It's a very passive development, and therefore robs the gesture of any real meaning. In the Grey Annals version, the Noldor decide the Fëanoreans are Dispossessed before Maedhros says or does anything. If anything, Caranthir's outburst wrecks Maedhros' political prospects, which is not the point.

3) Also, Angrod's actions are very suspect if the Fëanoreans have only given lip service to their apology. Angrod, who is extremely angry about the crossing of the Helcaraxë and the betrayal of Fëanor, is sent to Menegroth as ambassador to Thingol. If he actively hides and conceals the bad actions of the Fëanoreans before there is any attempt at redress on the part of the Fëanoreans...he looks like he has had a personality change for no reason. Why? Why is he doing this? He has to have some confidence that Fingolfin is in charge and that the feud between the two branches of the Noldor in Middle Earth is healed and put to rest. 'All is forgiven and in the past' is not an easy place to get to after the ordeal they've endured. We need to show him getting there (even if he has doubts).

4) Lastly, the Fëanoreans leave immediately after the Council to go East. If they appear to leave moments after Maedhros acknowledges Fingolfin as High King, it's fairly obvious that the Fëanoreans did *not* acknowledge Fingolfin and are making no attempt to reconcile at all. Caranthir's outburst is not a disruption, but just what the situation has been all along, and therefore it makes the Host of Fingolfin look foolish for even attempting to reconcile (why do they need the Fëanoreans, anyway?) and the Fëanoreans have apparently spent a few years just seething at their neighbors with no progress at all.

The focus of this season is on reconciliation, so we should show the Noldor attempting to reconcile. Maedhros' gesture of recognizing Fingolfin should not be in a scene immediately before or after Caranthir's outburst. We can get them into the same episode if we have to, but there would need to be an arc where we see the various Noldor attempting to make peace between the camps (with Caranthir's outburst not being the only data point). We need to tell a story, not just depict events, and the events in Year 7 of the Grey Annals are an inferior story to the one told in the Quenta Silmarillion.


Obviously, I am super biased towards Fëanoreans, and Maedhros is my favorite character in this entire project. I am going to fight very, very hard to preserve one of his most awesome character moments in the best form that Tolkien gave it. Having the other Noldor tell him that, by the way, Fingolfin is High King, hope you're okay with that, is *not* the story I want to tell here. I am fine with crowning Fingolfin later (ie, around the time the Noldor are selecting realms), but Maedhros would have needed to abdicate up front.


Also, to be fair, what Corey Olsen said was that he wasn't worrying about Fingolfin's story while he was focused on the storyline for Galadriel and Celeborn. It wasn't that he 'doesn't care' about when Fingolfin is recognized as High King or your concerns, it's that he wasn't focused on that at that time. He was basically saying that it was an off-topic tangent that he didn't intend to address right then. The same way Orodreth's parentage (son or brother to Angrod) hasn't been addressed yet, and he knows that, but was not interested in delving into it during Friday's session.

Considering we have not yet finalized the outline for Season 4, as we are currently working through the Season 4 storylines and developing them, it is not 'too late' to resolve these issues.

 

[Faelivrin]

Edit: I've also modified my post to try to remove excess emotion. I've had a bad day for reasons unrelated to the forum.

Marie, I request you to take a look at the outline I proposed, which already solved at least some of the problems you're concerned about, without producing an impossible chronology. It's not perfect and I would welcome constructive criticism or discussion of what I have written. But please don't assume things about my proposal that I have never suggested.

The short version is here: https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/session-4-02-season-4-episode-outlines.3019/page-13#post-23140
The long version, with lots of details, is here: https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/session-4-02-season-4-episode-outlines.3019/page-12#post-23124

I haven't proposed using the specific versions of events in the Grey Annals. I actually just said that I don't want to use those specific events.

I do prefer the version where Maedhros actively cedes the Kingship on his own initiative, I agree that it works better.

I'm not even suggesting we use the same years or length of time between events. I have only pointed out that the Grey Annals is our only source of the order in which events happened and that there was just one Council, not multiple councils separated by several years or decades. I brought up this chronology back in April, and this is the first time you have told me that my ideas are all bad. I am confused why nobody ever raised these objections before.




As for your concerns that Angrod will have no motivation to conceal the Kinslaying itself, in Session 4 Corey brought up Thingol’s ban, and how much worse it could have been. It’s an important reminder of the consequences the Noldor face if they’re careless and foolish.

When Fingolfin and the other princes consider whether to let Thingol find out about the Kinslaying, either directly or by deliberately telling him about the Helkaraxë, they aren’t going to worry that Thingol will dislike Fingolfin. They’re going to worry that Thingol and Melian will wage war on the Noldor and maybe wipe out the Fëanorians, or send snipers to assassinate Fingolfin, Fingon, and the Sons of Fëanor. The Sindar have a weaker army than the Noldor, but they also have a Maia and ships, their impenetrable kingdom is immune to sieges, they know the lay of the land in great detail, and they’re friends with the trees and animals. The Noldor will also worry that letting the Fëanorians get caught or killed would destroy the fragile inter-Noldor reconciliation. Any of their ambassadors could be taken prisoner.

The Noldor cannot afford to play games with this, taking unnecessary risks, being cavalier or careless with ‘less important’ secrets. Fingolfin would tell his people that certain topics are too dangerous to reveal, and they’d understand he’s right and try to keep these things secret. They aren’t suicidal. Angrod is not suicidal. Fingolfin is not suicidal. Galadriel is not suicidal. They don't need to be reconciled to the Feanorians to realize that telling Cirdan and Thingol about the Kinslaying is potentially suicide.

 

[amysrevenge]

[ETA: I always struggle with this sort of post, because it always feels so directly combative, and that's not really how I intend it. I feel like either you or I are missing some essential point here, and it could very easily be me. Believe me, I'm not trying to confront here, just to discuss.]

I guess, no matter how many times you've said it, I still don't see the line instantly connecting "Thingol learns that some of the Noldor walked rather than sailing" and "Thingol learns that the Noldor slaughtered the Teleri". There are a lot of steps in between there, and even the least charitable interpretation of the events (in a situation where there is no reason not to be charitable) would not have them come off as kinslayers just because they came over via two paths. Frankly, even the entire story, minus an actual play by play from the shores of Alqualonde, has the Noldor at absolute worst as thieves and arsonists and criminals on the run from the Valar, who took the ships and then burned them. Nobody would go straight to "kinslayers", it's unthinkable.

If Thingol learned the following facts on the day the Sun rose, he would not think "Kinslayers!". He would think "Thieves!"

Some of the Noldor sailed, some walked.
The Noldor who sailed were the ones who burned the ships.
There is a great deal of ill will between the two camps of Noldor.
​

It looks to be a quarrel among thieves, where one side tried to get the better of the other side. He might even, upon learning more about the internal Noldor politics from spies and/or emissaries, think "Feanoreans are thieves, Fingolfineans and Finarfinans(?) are enablers but perhaps not thieves".

In his darkest imaginings he wouldn't think "Kinslayers". Like I said above , it's unthinkable. Up until the moment Angrod tells him, he has never once thought of it. Elves don't kill other Elves on purpose. It doesn't happen.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I really wish you would read the outline I proposed, which already solved most of the problems you're concerned about, while still not producing a nonsensical chronology. Instead of assuming things about my proposal that I have never suggested, I would ask you to respond to what I've actually proposed.

The short version is here: https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/session-4-02-season-4-episode-outlines.3019/page-13#post-23140
The long version, with details of character motivations, is here: https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/session-4-02-season-4-episode-outlines.3019/page-12#post-23124

I have never proposed using the specific versions of events in the Grey Annals. I actually just told you that I don't want to use the specific events.I'm not even suggesting we use the same years or length of time between events! I have only pointed out that the Grey Annals is our only source of the order in which events happened and that there was clearly one Council, not multiple councils separated by several years or decades. Furthermore, I proposed this chronology back in April, and this is the first time you have told me that my ideas are all garbage. I am very confused why nobody ever raised these objections before.




As for your concerns that Angrod will have no motivation to conceal the Kinslaying, in Session 4 Corey brought up Thingol’s ban, and how much worse it could have been. It’s an important reminder of the consequences the Noldor face if they’re careless and foolish.

When Fingolfin and the other princes consider whether to let Thingol find out about the Kinslaying, either directly or by deliberately telling him about the Helkaraxë, they aren’t going to worry that Thingol will dislike Fingolfin. They’re going to worry that Thingol and Melian will wage war on the Noldor and maybe wipe out the Fëanorians, or send snipers to assassinate Fingolfin, Fingon, and the Sons of Fëanor. The Sindar have a weaker army than the Noldor, but they also have a Maia and ships, their impenetrable kingdom is immune to sieges, they know the lay of the land in great detail, and they’re friends with the trees and animals. The Noldor will also worry that letting the Fëanorians get caught or killed would destroy the fragile inter-Noldor reconciliation. Any of their ambassadors could be taken prisoner.

The Noldor cannot afford to play games with this, taking unnecessary risks, being cavalier or careless with ‘less important’ secrets. Fingolfin would tell his people that certain topics are too dangerous to reveal, and they’d understand he’s right and try to keep these things secret. They aren’t suicidal. Angrod is not suicidal. Fingolfin is not suicidal. Galadriel is not suicidal. They don't need to be reconciled to the Feanorians to realize that telling Cirdan and Thingol about the Kinslaying is potentially suicide.

I’d partially developed having the Dagor Aglareb after the Ban from your outlines. Still haven’t heard much about that, but I just don’t like the idea of having the Noldor and Sindar fight for survival against Morgoth, then start fighting amongst themselves. Makes it feel like the Battle was for nothing if they start going for each other’s throats once the battle’s over per se. Also, there’s potential for conflict amongst the Noldor when the rumors fly before the Battle, particularly between the Feanoreans and the House of Finarfin.

 

[MithLuin]

To be clear, Faelivrin, I am rejecting the version of the Council as told in the Grey Annals, and stating my preference for the version of the story (including implied chronology) in the published Silmarillion. I realize that the storytelling jumps all over the place, but the Quenta does not place Maedhros' abdication at the Council, and neither do I. I treat them as separate events. The reconcilliation of the two camps *is* an event, and all of the important elves are present. It doesn't have to be a council, but it is some sort of public meeting/event. Maedhros is well enough to attend, as without him, that doesn't happen.

I recognize that you also prefer the version where Maedhros is proactive in his abdication, but would like to keep the events merged as in the Grey Annals. We can work with that and see if it fits. Most likely, Angrod's visit to Doriath will be late enough that this will be a minor detail, not a huge point - some of these events, even if separate, discrete events, will be in the same episode as each other.

As for Angrod, Tolkien's stated motivation for him to keep silent is his belief that the past has been forgiven and the feud healed, and thus it is all best left unmentioned. He is not said to be afraid of what the consequences would be, should Thingol find out. I am not saying that there's anything wrong with making him prudent in keeping his mouth shut, I'm just mentioning that Tolkien did give him a motivation beyond fear, and as that motivation ties in very strongly with our theme for the season, it would be a shame to swallow it up and lose it here. Granted, Angrod won't say much if any of this - but some hint of it could come up in his conversations with Finrod and/or Fingolfin before he goes. Personally, I want to see him being as intentionally generous as he can to the Fëanoreans, so that Caranthir's rebuke stings as terribly unfair and rankles for years to come.

No one is rejecting the outline you've proposed for this project. I stated when you made it that we could consider it a working document and adjust it as necessary while working on the preplanning for the Season. That is what is happening. Obviously, you did not know when you wrote it that we were going to have Galadriel visit Doriath separate from Angrod at the beginning of the season. So, now we fit that in.

I do hope tomorrow is better for you!

 

[Faelivrin]

I still don't see the line instantly connecting "Thingol learns that some of the Noldor walked rather than sailing" and "Thingol learns that the Noldor slaughtered the Teleri".

You’re right that “Kinslayers” is unthinkable to the Sindar. I imagine the Falathrim could reason along these lines:

1. Why did you walk if you had ships?
2. They were all burned by Orcs, and no Telerin sailors were left alive to help you? Very sad.
...
3. (to each other) Um, good ships don’t burn easily. It takes a while to even set them alight, let alone burn them to the waterline.
4. How is it none of the Telerin sailors had the wit to get their ships out in time, when they saw an army coming? We did it, why couldn’t they?
5. Why didn’t the sailors jump overboard and swim to shore?
6. All the Teleri were already dead before the ships burned? But how?
...
7. Did you bury Olwë on the shore? He was my good friend, I want to visit his grave.
8. You didn’t bury him? I can’t find any graves here. And no sign of a battle, either.
9. The earth says there’re no graves and no battlefield on this firth. The sea says only one person died in the ships.
10. Your story makes no sense. If there was no battle, how did the ships burn?
11. Noldor burned them!? Why would you destroy a precious gift your Telerin friends gave you?
12. You stole the ships!
13. The Teleri wouldn’t just let you steal their ships. Ulmo wouldn’t just let you. You betrayed our kin and disobeyed the Valar.
14. Something bad happened in Aman. What are you hiding?

Short of the Kinslaying itself, the above is still bad. The Noldor can lie, saying the Teleri gave ships but didn’t themselves come along. But the more details they share, the more questions they encourage, and the harder this gets.

You remain unconvinced that any hint of the Crossing of the Helcaraxë could be made public without immediately leading to revealing the betrayal at Losgar and the Kinslaying.

Actually, I don’t think it’s impossible. I did previously acknowledge Amysrevenge’s dialogues are plausible. But they don’t entirely resolve my concerns, and bring up some new concerns.

1. Amysrevenge’s dialogues rely on no Sinda ever asking further questions, even Thingol. All it takes is one Sinda asking Q.4, Q.5, or Q.7. Revealing the Helkaraxë is a big and unnecessary risk, for no gain. The Noldor don’t have any guarantee that the Sindar won’t realize the ships were stolen. There’s no real motivation to tell any Sinda about this, and very good reason not to. The few who are willing to describe their trauma to foreign strangers still wouldn’t take stupid risks.

2. I also don’t think the Noldor are likely to tell active falsehoods and fabricated stories, even if technically they aren’t entirely lies. Lying by omission is less dishonest.

3. You are all concerned that Fingolfin can’t persuade the Noldor not to tell Sindar about the Helkaraxë. But I think it’s far less likely that Fingolfin can persuade all the Noldor to coordinate in telling the exact same set of falsehoods, and never accidentally contradict each other. Pulling off an active conspiracy is even harder than saying nothing. And it isn’t necessary.

We’re now planning for the Sindar to learn nothing about the arson, the theft, or the Kinslaying until after Dagor Aglareb. So the Noldor have to make this false story hold up for over 60 years. Since they don’t want the Sindar to ever learn the truth, they’ll try to conceal it in a way that will work as long as possible. It’s much safer and smarter to just never tell them about the Helkaraxë at all.

She shared her story so that others who are facing a difficult and scary situation, (but hopefully not the same situation she faced!), can be encouraged as they face their own ordeal
[...]
...just as those listening to elves in the Host of Fingolfin would not be expected to be facing the passage of the Helcaraxë, but might have their own ordeals that they are facing.

If it wasn’t about encouraging other people to go to the police, I can see a resemblance to the Helkaraxë (I don’t know how soon she wrote the blog). And I already acknowledged Amysrevenge’s point that it would only take 1 Elf to talk about trauma eventually. But I think there’s a significant difference between eventually (30-40 years later) and immediately. A year is like less than a month to an Elf, which I think you're all missing when you say that the Noldor would start sharing it with strangers after only 2-3 years.

I did rework the entire storyline of the reveal of the Kinslaying to not mention the crossing of the Helcaraxë until after the Mereth

I saw you said the outline would do that, and I’m sorry I seemed to ignore it. I’m really confused because you also seem to say that the Noldor must describe Helkaraxë crossing to Círdan + Thingol immediately in Eps 1-2. That it’s impossible to hide that the 2 hosts came separately, and that they have to tell Círdan as soon as they meet him, or that he already knows about the Helkaraxë before they meet him. I may be misunderstanding, but that’s my honest best attempt to interpret your posts.

I don’t think any survivor wants to open up to total strangers immediately in the first few years (1-2 months to Elves). In fact it sounds like the Hosts want Galadriel to cope by not talking with anyone, not even her family.

But more importantly, the Noldor truly need to hide it, to avoid conflict with the Sindar. I don’t want to show them blithely taking idiotic risks.


If they never talk about the journey in front of Sindar, and just tell the Sindar they don’t want to talk about it, nobody would think to ask “Did you walk across the Grinding Ice?” It’s nearly as unthinkable as the Kinslaying, because it’s so insanely dangerous, and the Sindar don’t know that Calaquendi are so much tougher than themselves. The Sindar don’t even know yet that the Ice exists, because Ulmo only made it when Morgoth left Valinor. They have no idea walking over the Sea is even possible.

This story would only come out by accident from somebody very young, or inebriated, or betrothed to/in love with a Sinda. I explained how easily Círdan could misunderstand why there are two camps, without instantly knowing they crossed the Helkaraxë. Here. At worst, Círdan would assume the second host was brought over by the Valar.

I think that even the realization that the Noldor are hiding something should happen gradually. At least as gradually as in the outline I proposed above.


I’m also concerned that Marie’s outline contradicts the story written by Tolkien, who did not think the Noldor want to tell the Sindar about Finwë’s death immediately. I’d much rather give the author the benefit of the doubt that he had a reason for what he wrote. If pushed, Angrod can tell Thingol he hasn’t spoken to Finwë or Olwë recently, has no messages, and doesn’t know how they are doing. He might hope that by now they’ve been reincarnated; after all they were innocent. If he tells Thingol about Finwë then he also has to tell him that the Noldor don’t have a new King because they’re divided by a feud, and that Angrod is the ambassador of just one faction.

And I'd like to clarify that I want to use the story of the rumors in the books: Sauron and his spies eventually find out the whole truth and spread rumors specifically about the Kinslaying; then Thingol accuses Finrod and brothers of slaying kin at Alqualondë.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

You’re right that “Kinslayers” is unthinkable to the Sindar. I imagine the Falathrim could reason along these lines:

1. Why did you walk if you had ships?
2. They were all burned by Orcs, and no Telerin sailors were left alive to help you? Very sad.
...
3. (to each other) Um, good ships don’t burn easily. It takes a while to even set them alight, let alone burn them to the waterline.
4. How is it none of the Telerin sailors had the wit to get their ships out in time, when they saw an army coming? We did it, why couldn’t they?
5. Why didn’t the sailors jump overboard and swim to shore?
6. All the Teleri were already dead before the ships burned? But how?
...
7. Did you bury Olwë on the shore? He was my good friend, I want to visit his grave.
8. You didn’t bury him? I can’t find any graves here. And no sign of a battle, either.
9. The earth says there’re no graves and no battlefield on this firth. The sea says only one person died in the ships.
10. Your story makes no sense. If there was no battle, how did the ships burn?
11. Noldor burned them!? Why would you destroy a precious gift your Telerin friends gave you?
12. You stole the ships!
13. The Teleri wouldn’t just let you steal their ships. Ulmo wouldn’t just let you. You betrayed our kin and disobeyed the Valar.
14. Something bad happened in Aman. What are you hiding?

Short of the Kinslaying itself, the above is still bad. The Noldor can lie, saying the Teleri gave ships but didn’t themselves come along. But the more details they share, the more questions they encourage, and the harder this gets.

Actually, I don’t think it’s impossible. I did previously acknowledge Amysrevenge’s dialogues are plausible. But they don’t entirely resolve my concerns, and bring up some new concerns.

1. Amysrevenge’s dialogues rely on no Sinda ever asking further questions, even Thingol. All it takes is one Sinda asking Q.4, Q.5, or Q.7. Revealing the Helkaraxë is a big and unnecessary risk, for no gain. The Noldor don’t have any guarantee that the Sindar won’t realize the ships were stolen. There’s no real motivation to tell any Sinda about this, and very good reason not to. The few who are willing to describe their trauma to foreign strangers still wouldn’t take stupid risks.

2. I also don’t think the Noldor are likely to tell active falsehoods and fabricated stories, even if technically they aren’t entirely lies. Lying by omission is less dishonest.

3. You are all concerned that Fingolfin can’t persuade the Noldor not to tell Sindar about the Helkaraxë. But I think it’s far less likely that Fingolfin can persuade all the Noldor to coordinate in telling the exact same set of falsehoods, and never accidentally contradict each other. Pulling off an active conspiracy is even harder than saying nothing. And it isn’t necessary.

We’re now planning for the Sindar to learn nothing about the arson, the theft, or the Kinslaying until after Dagor Aglareb. So the Noldor have to make this false story hold up for over 60 years. Since they don’t want the Sindar to ever learn the truth, they’ll try to conceal it in a way that will work as long as possible. It’s much safer and smarter to just never tell them about the Helkaraxë at all.



If it wasn’t about encouraging other people to go to the police, I can see a resemblance to the Helkaraxë (I don’t know how soon she wrote the blog). And I already acknowledged Amysrevenge’s point that it would only take 1 Elf to talk about trauma eventually. But I think there’s a significant difference between eventually (30-40 years later) and immediately. A year is like less than a month to an Elf, which I think you're all missing when you say that the Noldor would start sharing it with strangers after only 2-3 years.

I saw you said the outline would do that, and I’m sorry I seemed to ignore it. I’m really confused because you also seem to say that the Noldor must describe Helkaraxë crossing to Círdan + Thingol immediately in Eps 1-2. That it’s impossible to hide that the 2 hosts came separately, and that they have to tell Círdan as soon as they meet him, or that he already knows about the Helkaraxë before they meet him. I may be misunderstanding, but that’s my honest best attempt to interpret your posts.

I don’t think any survivor wants to open up to total strangers immediately in the first few years (1-2 months to Elves). In fact it sounds like the Hosts want Galadriel to cope by not talking with anyone, not even her family.

But more importantly, the Noldor truly need to hide it, to avoid conflict with the Sindar. I don’t want to show them blithely taking idiotic risks.


If they never talk about the journey in front of Sindar, and just tell the Sindar they don’t want to talk about it, nobody would think to ask “Did you walk across the Grinding Ice?” It’s nearly as unthinkable as the Kinslaying, because it’s so insanely dangerous, and the Sindar don’t know that Calaquendi are so much tougher than themselves. The Sindar don’t even know yet that the Ice exists, because Ulmo only made it when Morgoth left Valinor. They have no idea walking over the Sea is even possible.

This story would only come out by accident from somebody very young, or inebriated, or betrothed to/in love with a Sinda. I explained how easily Círdan could misunderstand why there are two camps, without instantly knowing they crossed the Helkaraxë. Here. At worst, Círdan would assume the second host was brought over by the Valar.

I think that even the realization that the Noldor are hiding something should happen gradually. At least as gradually as in the outline I proposed above.


I’m also concerned that Marie’s outline contradicts the story written by Tolkien, who did not think the Noldor want to tell the Sindar about Finwë’s death immediately. I’d much rather give the author the benefit of the doubt that he had a reason for what he wrote. If pushed, Angrod can tell Thingol he hasn’t spoken to Finwë or Olwë recently, has no messages, and doesn’t know how they are doing. He might hope that by now they’ve been reincarnated; after all they were innocent. If he tells Thingol about Finwë then he also has to tell him that the Noldor don’t have a new King because they’re divided by a feud, and that Angrod is the ambassador of just one faction.

And I'd like to clarify that I want to use the story of the rumors in the books: Sauron and his spies eventually find out the whole truth and spread rumors specifically about the Kinslaying; then Thingol accuses Finrod and brothers of slaying kin at Alqualondë.

So the final word is that the reveal of the Kinslaying is after the Dagor Aglareb?

 

[amysrevenge]

Everyone is so quick to jump on "final word" or "final decision". Nothing is final until Corey and the Exec crew say it's final, and even then they can change their minds.

"Current working plan" is the firmest possible way to describe anything that Corey hasn't declared out loud on the podcast.