Session 4.11 - Season 4 Episode Outlines (Revisited)

Discussion in 'Episode Questions' started by MithLuin, Feb 23, 2019.

  1. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    I can’t believe we’re back to the Sauron-looks-like-a-coward issue, but yeah I agree that Sauron could take Edhellos himself. He’d be posing as an elf, taking advantage of a situation and offer to be her company back home, since he has heard dark rumours of the horrible werewolves and whatever that could lurk at places along the way.
  2. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    About the cowardly Sauron issue: this question arose when we worked on s3, and we had different opinions about how Sauron should act when Maedhros was taken captive. I still don’t think that he has to get his hands bloody at all times to avoid looking like a coward. He has proven himself as a military strategist and leader in combat. He will get more chances to look powerful.
    MithLuin and Nicholas Palazzo like this.
  3. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    She'd presumably go home with her husband, son, brothers-in-law, and their large entourages. It seems more likely she'd be captured while frolicking in the "safe" woods of Dorthonion or fields of Ard-galen, alone or with just a small group of other Elves.
    Haakon likes this.
  4. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, that makes more sense.
  5. amysrevenge

    amysrevenge Well-Known Member

    It's not hard to write a scene where one among an entourage is delayed, or wishes to take an alternate route, or leave early, or... any of a number of reasonable explanations to travel on her own. Not saying I demand this, just that it is easy to not be trapped by "well, she came with her family, therefore she must leave with them".
    Nicholas Palazzo and Haakon like this.
  6. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    The current plan is to have Sauron attempt to foment unrest at the Mereth Aderthad, and to be thwarted by Lúthien's calming vibes. Also, his spying at the Feast convinces him that the Noldor are hiding something. He wants to find out what that is, and then use whatever it is to drive a wedge between the Sindar and the Noldor. In the absence of any real information, he's fine with making things up. Since he was not able to start a fight at the feast or get any answers, he then resorts to kidnapping an elf.

    That's one reason it would make sense that the first captive be shown being taken immediately after the Feast - it would be Sauron putting his new plan into action, and why burn daylight? It is of course possible that he go home to Angband first, think up this plan, and then set out to obtain some Noldor captives.

    If it's the first, we would likely show a capture as an episode tag. If it's the second, we'd show the capture some time in the episode following the Feast (so, Episode 6). I don't feel the need to make a decision one way or the other at this time; both could be made to work, and story not logistics is going to drive the decision.

    Sauron will appear clever, not cowardly, for making full use of the underlings available to him in implementing his plan.

    As for Glaurung, I was *not* suggesting that we change the elves who confront him. Certainly, it would be Fingon and his mounted knights who are driving the dragon back. But as we are apparently doing a bit of a drawn out mystery with the elves discovering what is causing the strange tracks and minor forest would be possible to set an intended path of the dragon where we like.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
    Haakon likes this.
  7. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Well-Known Member

    So Fingon and his cavalry would be following burning tracks around like hounds?

    Also, if we have Caranthir absent from the Mereth Aderthad, we could have a line about him making an excuse about "guarding the back" or something like that.
  8. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    I mean, we could. I more meant that if there were a mystery, eventually someone would come investigate, and it's a big enough problem that Fingon getting involved would make sense.

    As for Caranthir. .. yes, I want Maedhros to be smart enough to request that his brothers hold down the fort, so to speak, while he and Maglor attend. So, we have a few options. Choose another elf who could almost get into a fight, think of an excuse for Caranthir to come anyway, or use this as an opportunity to show Angrod as aggressor by having him remark on Caranthir's absence. The only 'other elf' on the Feanorean side is going to be one of the wives. Maedhros and Maglor won't start a fight here no matter what.

    The request is for Sauron to get two opposing elves together and try to start a fight between them. So, if we don't want to include Caranthir, we need to think up a way for that scene to happen without him.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  9. amysrevenge

    amysrevenge Well-Known Member

    Can you imagine the look on Maedhros' face when Caranthir just shows up, after being specifically ordered not to? Hahahahahahaha
  10. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    I keep going back and forth between 'play up the animosity between Caranthir and Angrod to encapsulate the intra-Noldor conflict in a single contentious relationship' and 'the issues between the Fëanoreans and the Host of Fingolfin should not be simplified down to Caranthir and Angrod not liking each other.'

    You can't have 'peoples' dislike one another and tell any kind of story with it. It has to be individual people disliking and struggling to interact with other individual people. Even if the point of your story is racism or one group of people being mocked. So, in Witness, you have the random non-Amish people thinking it's funny to knock off the guy's hat, because they know they'll get away with it. They aren't defined, named characters - just a group of bullies. But...the reaction to them is very individual. The Amish guy takes it, and Harrison Ford's character is more about punching people in the face. They aren't just beating up on 'the Amish' - they're beating up on this guy.

    But at the same time, if we decide that Angrod is the voice of 'man, I really hate those Fëanoreans' and Caranthir is the voice of 'wow, Fëanoreans can be such jerks' starts to look like a personal feud between Caranthir and Angrod. We've got to bring the other Noldor into it, even if it's not always quite as obvious/contentious as with those two.

    So...Mereth Aderthad will be an ensemble episode with many, many people there and interacting for the only time in the series. We should take full advantage of that and think through who we want to have talk to whom about what.

    Maedhros is all about damage control. He wants the Host of Fingolfin to join with him in fighting Morgoth, and he knows that only lasts so long as the Fëanoreans don't burn any more bridges (ships) there. So, he's going to be tactful and act as a gift-giving ambassador and keep his brothers out of the room (so to speak) as much as possible. He'll make an effort to maintain his relationships with Fingon and Finrod over the years (less so with Turgon, maybe). At the Mereth Aderthad, Maedhros would want to put out any fires (though he wouldn't have Lúthien's power to actually do so). So, he could (potentially) admire her efforts [if he even recognizes what she's doing; probably not.] His goal in attending is to maintain ties. So....who does he talk to there?

    Maglor is really glad that Maedhros is the leader, not him. He'll follow Maedhros' lead and back him up however is necessary. He's an artist and a fighter, and it's really hard to pretend that the artist part doesn't come first. At the feast, a peaceful event...the artist side should be out in full force. He's not above showing off, though he's probably not going to sing the Noldolante or anything! [That likely gets composed much, much later.] If *any* of the Noldor are going to figure out what Lúthien's doing, it's most likely to be him or Finrod. If we had a scene of Maglor singing and Lúthien dancing to the music, that would be pretty cool!

    Curufin's wife (if she's the one being made captive) will be introduced early in this season and get a name. Any chance that she would attend without her husband? If so, what's her take on all of this? [Alternatively, we could use Caranthir's wife in this role.]

    Maglor's wife - she could potentially be there, but likely as a background character only. Any particular viewpoint she should have on all of this?

    Any other Fëanoreans we want there?

    Turgon hates Fëanoreans and probably only invited them to his party grudgingly because his father told him to. Okay, so Turgon is not a 10 year old throwing a birthday party, but I do think there is some grudging acceptance that anyone from East Beleriand is showing up at all. Though as host, he's not going to go around trying to start fights. Holding the party in Nevrast is only 'centrally located' if you pretend East Beleriand doesn't exist. His focus is clearly on building strong relationships with the Sindar who are moving into Nevrast now; he could do without the Fëanoreans.

    Fingolfin, as High King, wants to be a voice of unity and see everyone getting along. He is maybe a bit more optimistic than he should be about thinking that the feud between him and Fëanor is dead and buried, but he is actively working on it and the party was his idea. He wants to encourage his people to make new homes here and all get along. He'd likely be monitoring any disgruntlement, but be removed from it (last to hear sort of thing).

    Fingon thinks the feud is healed. He worked really hard to make that happen. He trusts Maedhros to lead the Fëanoreans in the right direction moving forward. So...he's maybe genuinely happy at the Feast? He's maybe focusing on the Sindar now.

    Aredhel will be disappointed if Curufin and Celegorm don't show up. She's likely been busy helping establish Nevrast and act as hostess to this get together.

    Idril is finally all grown up, and we'll be introducing grown-up her in this episode. What will she do? Who will she talk to?

    Glorfindel and Ecthelion will be involved in hosting this Feast and should be introduced to the audience by now. What do they get up to?

    Rog will be one of Fingolfin's people; we should include him here, even if he's background still.

    Finrod is a peacemaker who is friends with everyone. He's genuinely willing to give the Fëanoreans another chance. He's thrilled to spend time with the Sindar. He is happy to see his family again. If there were dwarves here, he'd chat with them. He's all around friendly and nice guy. He's also the wisest one in the bunch, so he'd be pretty cognizant of underlying currents if things start to turn sour.

    Aegnor is fairly neutral at this point. He's friends with Fingon, and he gets along with his brothers, but he's not overly fond of Fëanoreans. He could do without them, but isn't vocally hating them. angry with the Fëanoreans in general, and Caranthir in particular. He hated Fëanor while crossing the Helcaraxë and wanted some vengeance when they arrived. turned out Fëanor was dead, and Maedhros and Fingolfin made up, so he did his best to put that all behind him, and when he went to meet Thingol, he presented the Noldor as a united group and did not mention their internal issues. He thought he was being really honorable and generous about the whole thing. Then Caranthir accused him of telling tales and ranted that he didn't speak for him, etc, and Angrod was stung to have his generous act of diplomacy (I got you all permission to live wherever you want!) thrown back in his face by an ungrateful lout. If anyone is going to voice 'I hope the Fëanoreans don't show up' it would be him, but I don't think he'd go so far as to say, 'If they're there, I'm not going.'

    Orodreth - busy making lovey-dovey eyes at Meril

    Galadriel - So not in the mood for a party. She's been depressed/withdrawn and not interested in company since her trip to Doriath. But, she does attend, and Celeborn draws her out of her shell.

    Círdan is there, and he's getting frustrated by stories that don't add up. He's also one of the last people who would start a fight, and he's interested in finding the truth, not fisticuffs. He'll also maintain good relations with the non-Fëanorean Noldor after the Kinslaying reveal (including Fingon, who was guilty), so...we really have to think about his reaction.

    Beleg and Mablung and Lúthien - they are there for a party, and to meet the newcomers. Lúthien will be the ultimate peacemaker, and she's there to help everyone choose to get along. She might not like all the Noldor she meets, but she's certainly willing to give them a chance and treats them kindly. What are Beleg and Mablung up to? And does Daeron come along?

    Celeborn - talks to Galadriel privately

    Celeborn's sister (name TBD) - we have some Green Elves at this feast, right? She would be meeting the Noldor for the first time. She might be a bit...puzzled as to what the dynamics are between them all, but she must be curious enough to have travelled all the way from Ossiriand to attend.

    Anyone else there with a name we should be considering?

    So, while Sauron could obviously start something between two red-shirts, is there any other dynamic here that we could exploit to start a fight (or at the very least, an angry exchange of words along the lines of 'how dare you' or 'you have a lot of nerve' that could potentially escalate)? If we have to, it can be that Caranthir shows up uninvited, gets drunk, and picks a fight with literally everyone he talks to. But...any other ideas?
    Haakon likes this.
  11. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Well-Known Member

    What are Celegorm and Curufin doing? And I see potential for conflict between the House of Finarfin and the House of Feanor going down the line with the Ban, since at least one of the Feanoreans will think that someone in the House of Finarfin ratted them out to Thingol and this is why there's a Ban.
    Faelivrin likes this.
  12. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Well-Known Member

    Looking at the Gantt chart, when should Rog escape and when should the possible treachery of the prisoners of Angband, with some as spies for the enemy, be known? Because this will impact Rog being accepted back into Fingolfin/Fingon's circle. If it happens too late, he won't be accepted because the Elves will be wary of any Elves that escape from Angband.
    Faelivrin likes this.
  13. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member


    Currently, I think that Rog should escape near the end of Season 4 (prior to Glaurung), but Annael's treachery should not be revealed until Season 5. No point in having a spy if they're discovered instantly, after all. I am fine with having Eldalotë's treachery early (Dagor Aglareb), as she will be Not Well in some clear way, and the elves will recognize that something was done to her. Annael seemed fine, on the other hand.... so the suspicion increases tremendously after that point.

    This is definitely a topic we will want to discuss with the Hosts when we go over the Season timeline.
    Faelivrin likes this.
  14. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Well-Known Member

    Will Annael be exiled after the Dagor Bragollach? Because this seems the only main Villains storyline in which there may be a place for a mole. Or will we make something up for Season 5 that occurs around Cirdan's kind that he is exiled for?
  15. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Perhaps? I don't know what we'll do in Season 5 yet, and last time the Hosts discussed the captive elves, they envisioned Annael being released (or 'escaping') and having his treachery come to light almost immediately. I think that part of the problem is that we are talking about a 200 year time frame, so it sounds like plenty of time is's actually only 5-6 episodes, so the effects are more immediate than perhaps intended. So, they talked about all of the captives in the context of Season 4, but such a long-term storyline would likely gradually unfold over Seasons 4-5 instead.

    Topics I definitely think we'll want to bring up with the Hosts on the 29th:

    Are these set points?
    • Maedhros rescued end of episode 1
    • Mereth Aderthad episode 5
    • Dagor Aglareb episode 8
    • Glaurung's Adventure episode 13
    How do they want to handle the opening episode? It's hard to have Círdan meeting the Noldor and Fingon's rescue of Maedhros in this episode.
    • 2 hour opener
    • Delay Galadriel's visit to Doriath (and all Doriath scenes) until episode 2
    • Make episode 1 Noldor-centric and episode 2 Sindar-centric
    • ???
    When should the Kinslaying be revealed to Thingol?
    • Canonically, after the Dagor Aglareb
    • Requested: Prior to Dagor Aglareb
    • Many steps to unfold, with Galadriel not moving to Doriath until after the Mereth Aderthad
    When will Ulmo's visions come to Turgon and Finrod?
    • How does this timing interact with the Kinslaying reveal and Sindar/Noldor relations?
    Do we need a dwarf-centric storyline for Azaghal this Season?

    Catch-and-Release Program timing
    • Must Sauron capture all the elves in Season 4?
    • Must he release/have escape Edhellos, Rog, and Annael in Season 4?
    • Can Annael's treachery wait to be uncovered until Season 5, so there is more time for Thuringwethil to use him as a spy?
    And of course, any event highlighted in green can be brought up in the context of 'when/where do you want this?'

    Are there any other sticking points I'm overlooking?
    Ange1e4e5 likes this.
  16. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Well-Known Member

    Rog should escape before Edhellos commits a treacherous action, or it will be much more difficult for him to be accepted back into Fingolfin/Fingon's lands for fear of him being a spy.
  17. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    The systematic capture and questioning of a large number of captives seems like a strategy that would be created with careful thought in consultation with (= ordered by) Morgoth. Morgoth and Sauron also aren't so impatient that they can't afford to wait a few days, months, or years to design the best strategy. I realize we may not have enough space/time to delay it until the next episode, but it would make more sense to me if we did do so.

    OK. But I see still no reason to want to change it. We don't need to (and can't) draw out the mystery for multiple episodes, or have Glaurung somehow sneak all the way into Hithlum. He sneaks out of Angband and there's some confusion at first, but he should then assault Ard-galen, burn and slime some land, kill a bunch of Elves, and burst into Hithlum.

    The only suggested motive to change that battle or Dagor Aglareb was to delay Minas Tirith's building until Season 5. But as I said that isn't necessary either, and there are other ways that doing that would cause problems. And as you pointed out, if Finrod never lives in Minas Tirith then it isn't his island at all.

    I prefer Glaurung to make an obvious move in Ard-galen. I don't think it's plausible or desirable for him to sneak undetected all the way to Mithrim.

    It would be out of character for Caranthir, Curufin, or Celegorm to attend the Feast of Reuniting. They despise the Dark Elves and the other houses, with the exception of Aredhel. They have no interest in making friends or being diplomatic. Snubbing the Feast is a political statement, and I think we can show the other Noldor interpreting it as such. Just as they'll interpret Thingol not attending as a political statement of disdain or contempt for the Noldor. And I agree that if the arguments are only ever between Caranthir and Angrod, then it'll look like they're the only people carrying on the feud, and it might risk making Angrod look almost as disagreeable as Caranthir.

    I think this is a situation to introduce a few very brief characters who essentially only appear in this episode. For example, some of the Feanorians who come with Maedhros and Maglor are dismissive of the Sindar (as their lords are!). Perhaps somebody comments that Daeron's music is "Not that primitive, for a Dark Elf, but not so good as a real musician like Prince Maglor." That sort of behavior could start an argument. Some Noldor may complain out loud that Thingol is snubbing them. Some Sindar, though initially open to the Noldor, may be turned off by their proud "lordliness". Some may be attending less to make friends than to examine a possible threat up close. Anyone might get upset if they hear [insert malicious rumors].

    The above Feanorian could be Amros if we want, since his attitudes towards the Sindar and other Noldor is a blank slate. And/or we could use Celeborn's father or mother (not both*) as a Sinda who's not entirely inclined to trust or like the Noldor, even before learning of the Kinslaying, and then show that parent strongly opposing Celeborn's marriage when he discusses his engagement with his family after they know about the Kinslaying. I think it would be good to have a second Sinda who take a dim view of outsiders, besides just Thingol. If not a relative of Celeborn, we can send Saeros to the Feast, although he's a Nando.

    We can also have our main characters (in addition to Luthien) react to trouble started by others.

    The question is convincing the Hosts to allow either a relative of Celeborn or a "minor character for a day" to carry this story in place of forcing Caranthir and Angrod into the role. (*I think that I would only suggest one of Celeborn's parents is still alive, not both.)

    I'll try to find time to reply to the rest of the thread later.
  18. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Well-Known Member

    Perhaps resentment of Thingol, which is plausible (and Thingol doesn't make things better for himself in portraying himself as haughty, just look at his attitude towards Beren). But I suggest that there should be an incident amongst the Noldor that Sauron would pick up on and piques his suspicion that the Noldor are hiding something. He sees one of the Noldor in a relatively small entourage (Edhellos), might offer to escort her back to Dorthonion, and kidnaps her.
  19. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    It is true that a feast setting is typically a situation where you show a lot of background characters who are not seen again, and let them create feeling/ambiance.

    So, here's the Podling village in the Dark Crystal:

    The main characters are Kira and Jen - the only ones who speak English. The other characters are all background, even though some of them do interact directly with the two main characters. For other examples of party scenes on film, take a look at this thread:

    'Party scenes' are fun parts of movies, though they don't typically last long. They are meant to establish a fun, celebratory mood, and also are useful displays of culture. Sometimes, they are rudely interrupted by attacks or something disturbing happening.

    We will have shown many parties prior to this one, so we have to consider how it will be done differently. Season 2 had: Finwë and Míriel's wedding at Cuivienen, Finwë and Indis' wedding, Fëanor and Nerdanel's wedding, Amrod and Amras' naming ceremony, Turgon and Elenwë's wedding feast (brief) and the Feast of Reconciliation on Taniquetal. Season 3 had the diplomatic party of the dwarves and Sindar meeting.

    Season 4 won't have too many parties, but it will have Orodreth's wedding and Galadriel's wedding in addition to the Mereth Aderthad.

    I think that this will be a large ensemble piece with multiple 'gatherings' over the course of the episode. Some quiet, private moments, like Celeborn and Galadriel's conversation overlooking the harbor, some celebratory moments where the music carries the scene, and some opportunities for background characters to show us what the 'common elves' are thinking while their leaders planned this party. The Noldor are celebrating the establishment of their new home in Middle-earth, and they've invited the Sindar to be part of this celebration with them. The name, Feast of Reuniting, isn't likely to be a reference to the 10-15 years it's been since the Noldor were all together camped at Lake Mithrim. It's about reuniting with the Sindar, whom they've been sundered from for generations.

    We can certainly suggest that using background characters for the role of 'unrest at the party' shows that the issue is more widespread than simply Angrod vs Caranthir having a feud. It's important that the unrest not just be Noldor/Sindar, but also Fëanorean/Host of Fingolfin, as well. So, having the general 'party goers' start grumbling is doable in this type of scene in a way it would not be in other settings, and shows the pervasive underlying faultlines.

    On the few occasions when the possibility of Celeborn having a father has come up, Corey Olsen has been quick to point out that he does not in our project, both back in Season 2 when Celeborn was a teenager at Cuiviénen, and as recently as last session. So, yes, convincing him to include Celeborn's father at all seems to be an uphill battle at this point. It is possible he has conflated the name of Elmo (which he is viscerally opposed to using) with the role of Celeborn's father Galadhon, though, so if you do want to bring it up as a possibility, I strongly recommend making that distinction clear - that you DON'T mean Elmo, but rather Galadhon.
  20. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    Hold the phone. I may have just had a stroke of brilliance. Or just a stroke. We'll see.

    I've been concerned this whole time that Morgoth's attack on the elves in this season is going to look stupid. What if it is a trap. What if it is an attempt to lure Fingolfin's forces into Angband itself, where they will be easily dispatched/enslaved. They could even look across the plain and see that the gates of Angband are wide open. Morgoth tempting Fingolfin into a confrontation that it isn't time for yet.
    Faelivrin likes this.

Share This Page