Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
I could live with that.
Earlier on, I've suggested a scene where Gothmog is getting impatient wondering where Morgoth is and Sauron has to placate him.
Thoughts?
Session 4.11 - Season 4 Episode Outlines (Revisited)
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Earlier on, I've suggested a scene where Gothmog is getting impatient wondering where Morgoth is and Sauron has to placate him.
Thoughts?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Or what, though? What is the threat?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Well, maybe not placate him per se, but assure him that Morgoth is doing something that might be beneficial in the long run and he'll get another chance for a battle down the line.
Personally I don't think of Gothmog as someone with much of an own agenda, or with a mind that critizises his leader or considers other plans or even plans of his own. He acts of course, and many times without direct orders, but he is rather simple, and if Morgoth (whom Gothmog worships fanatically) seems to want to avoid war at a certain point, he will wait. Sauron has more own agency, and Glaurung should have it as well.
Is there any reason why Telvildo can't be the Maia who volunteers for the Dragon project? We don't have a planned end for him yet, and we'll be killing Boldog, Thuringwethil, and Draugluin by Season 6.
So, Telvildo could be expressing all of the pre-dragon thoughts of impatience and greed (and acting like Morgoth's pet), and then *something happens to him* when Morgoth chooses him, and we see his empty skin after.....
So, Telvildo could be expressing all of the pre-dragon thoughts of impatience and greed (and acting like Morgoth's pet), and then *something happens to him* when Morgoth chooses him, and we see his empty skin after.....
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
What character traits do we have to Telvildo so far?
I’ve always assumed that he was one of the spirits killed by Luthien when she brought Tol-en-Gaurhoth down, as Thuringwethil was.
There haven't been any specific plans for Tevildo.
Tevildo being turned into Glaurung? Yes, I've toyed with the idea. I even wrote a comment along those lines during the last session. I did that without really thinking it through, though. Now...I have my doubts about it. But ok I'm not dead against it.
Tevildo being turned into Glaurung? Yes, I've toyed with the idea. I even wrote a comment along those lines during the last session. I did that without really thinking it through, though. Now...I have my doubts about it. But ok I'm not dead against it.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
I don't know if Tevildo is clever enough for it. But then, the problem is that if it was someone else, they should have been clever enough to be noticed by now. Unless they were clever and small.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I don't have a well-reasoned argument against a Tevildo/Glaurung transformation, in fact, I can appreciate the economy of it.
Yet, I feel like it kinda diminishes both of these characters. Glaurung seems like he should be a self-contained character, as does Tevildo. I'd like Tevildo to have an end to his own story that doesn't involve conversion into a new story.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Effective torture requires a certain level of intelligence. I know that there has been a recent shift to making Tevildo part of Sauron's muscle contingent; I'd like to lean away from that.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Depends on how long we run the Catch and Release program. Isn’t Telvildo a big part of it?
Yes, those are my feelings too. I think I prefer a new character for Glaurung (leaning towards the small lizard with a big ego being discovered and promised power, then put on the shelf, becoming impatient, manipulating Gothmog, being taken down again and being developed at catastrophic speed).
I still think that Glaurung would still feel like part of the season if he becomes embodied in Episode 9 instead of Episode 3. If the project is not a reaction to the failure of the Dagor Aglareb, then we're depicting Morgoth as reacting to that battle by completely failing to think up a new plan. After the battle he just stops trying for 400 years? He needs to react to the Dagor Aglareb in a proactive way, which is what the Dragon project would show.
If Glaurung has to be visible from his beginning I would much rather not make him something small and harmless-looking. Even newly-embodied, his body should be large and menacing, crocodile-sized. Making him into a small pet has the danger of trivializing him. Likewise, depicting him as something so incosequential that Morgoth abandons the project for several centuries would also trivialize him.
But on the other hand, I would prefer to at least keep his fire-breathing a surprise, even if nothing else about him can be a surprise.
Using Tevildo seems OK to me. I'm not excited for it but not against it either.
If Glaurung has to be visible from his beginning I would much rather not make him something small and harmless-looking. Even newly-embodied, his body should be large and menacing, crocodile-sized. Making him into a small pet has the danger of trivializing him. Likewise, depicting him as something so incosequential that Morgoth abandons the project for several centuries would also trivialize him.
But on the other hand, I would prefer to at least keep his fire-breathing a surprise, even if nothing else about him can be a surprise.
Using Tevildo seems OK to me. I'm not excited for it but not against it either.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I am not a big fan of the idea... Tevildo has always been a bit petty... he is clearly not equal to Sauron but a Thane, a Servant.
I also do not think that a small serpent-Glaurung to start with ( why explainnwhere he comes from? Explaining destroys magic! Leave open some mysteries!) Would trivialize Glaurung. Poison serpents are uncanny already, they make a lot of people feel uncomfortable... the sudden appearance of such an enigmatic pet also would make people ask themselves what morgoth is up to with it, and then showing it growing bigger and bigger, and becoming more sly and clever by time does even increase the feeling that something is wrong...
I also do not think that a small serpent-Glaurung to start with ( why explainnwhere he comes from? Explaining destroys magic! Leave open some mysteries!) Would trivialize Glaurung. Poison serpents are uncanny already, they make a lot of people feel uncomfortable... the sudden appearance of such an enigmatic pet also would make people ask themselves what morgoth is up to with it, and then showing it growing bigger and bigger, and becoming more sly and clever by time does even increase the feeling that something is wrong...
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Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Neither am I. We don't need to composite every single character. Besides, don't we have Tevildo doing something already?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
If Glaurung is an entirely new plot point starting in E9, Episodes 1-8 will be one arc which will end, with E9 starting a new arc which will end in E13.
Also, you are implying that just because the orcs fail in the Dagor Aglareb, Morgoth must come up with an entirely new stratagem at that point. This is not true. Just because Glaurung exists prior to the battle does not mean that Morgoth isn't changing his plays up. Glaurung is not utilized in the battle, and therefore is STILL a new tool of war. Morgoth is not standing still. If anything, he is standing still if he doesn't attempt anything new between E1 and E4.
Confrontations with the minimally trained Sindar go poorly, but confrontations with the Noldor are flat-out disastrous. This is not due to the presence of the sun, since both of these confrontations predate it. Sure, trolls tip the scales to a degree, but Morgoth never has them in the kind of numbers he would need to field an army of trolls alone. This implies that there is something limited about their production.
I don't disagree on this point, nor the suggestion that firebreathing be reserved for E13. I'd hate for Glaurung to appear to be some sort of Salicious Crumb character even temporarily.
@Haakon I realize that may not be your intent, but I do fear that it may be the result.
I do feel that we can find a way, however, to portray proto-Glaurung in a way that does not trivialize him and yet does not give him away too much.
Yes, yes, I understand how that could happen, and I wouldn’t want that, of course I wouldn’t. We don’t want Glaurung to be that small - and certainly not that silly. (But I totally get how my ideas could be taken to mean exactly that)
I think that, when Glaurung was discussed during the last session, it was more or less decided that he should be a former resident of old Utumno, who had survived its destruction. I think we can assume that the hells of Angband houses many of those creatures, different kinds of demons and beasts. They should be around more or less frequently. They should be of various degrees of power and intelligence, but not usually included in schemes of war, since most of them probably are hard to instruct and won’t follow orders well. Boldog was one of them, and he was useful. Glaurung is another. He doesn’t have to be small like a chihuahua. He could be the size of a big dog.
I think that, when Glaurung was discussed during the last session, it was more or less decided that he should be a former resident of old Utumno, who had survived its destruction. I think we can assume that the hells of Angband houses many of those creatures, different kinds of demons and beasts. They should be around more or less frequently. They should be of various degrees of power and intelligence, but not usually included in schemes of war, since most of them probably are hard to instruct and won’t follow orders well. Boldog was one of them, and he was useful. Glaurung is another. He doesn’t have to be small like a chihuahua. He could be the size of a big dog.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
I think there's something to this "survivor of Utumno" angle for Glaurung.
Brainstorming. If he were to only now in S4 to emerge from the wreckage, no matter his size (some sort of lizard/honey badger cross?), as maybe the final/only survivor to last this long, that would establish some bona fides (we could even show, perhaps, some glimpses of how he survived?). There could be a genuine buzz among the lower caste baddies "Did you hear? Something emerged from Utumno - how the heck did it survive down there so long?" that could help set up Glaurung in an indirect way.
Brainstorming. If he were to only now in S4 to emerge from the wreckage, no matter his size (some sort of lizard/honey badger cross?), as maybe the final/only survivor to last this long, that would establish some bona fides (we could even show, perhaps, some glimpses of how he survived?). There could be a genuine buzz among the lower caste baddies "Did you hear? Something emerged from Utumno - how the heck did it survive down there so long?" that could help set up Glaurung in an indirect way.