Session 4-18: Episodes 7 & 8

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The next Silm Film session will be held at the NEW time of THURSDAY June 20th at 10 PM (ET) (not AM)

The topic will focus on Episodes 7 and 8 of Season 4.

Link to Gantt Chart:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QZ0PrqCvWz5jy8pWZBj3TpG3Bnt1hPqHBaGL17TB0Y8/edit

In these two episodes, the secret of the Kinslaying will be fully revealed, and the consequences will put serious strain on the relationship between the Noldor and the Sindar. Also, preparations will be complete so that the next episode can be the Dagor Aglareb battle, which means that we will be showing Morgoth coming to 'visit' Angband and work the Spell of Bottomless Dread on some of Sauron's recalcitrant captives -- including Angrod's wife Edhellos.

Feel free to post any suggestions for scenes in those episodes or ways that we can tell the story of the Ban!
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Scene suggestion: I see that Rog escapes during this time on the Gantt chart. Maybe a scene where he escapes, slaughtering a hallway full of Orcs like Darth Vader in Rogue One?
Or am I putting in an action scene that doesn’t belong?

Opening scene: Finrod and Angrod are summoned to Thingol’s chambers, where he confronts them over what he’s heard of what the Noldor have done.

If I’m doing a bad job contributing, please tell me.
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Will Rog escape on his own or lead a group of other slaves? The Fall of Gondolin says that the people of Rog's house "had been much recruited by Noldoli who escaped from the mines of Melko, and the hatred of this house for the works of that evil one and his demons was exceeding great," so maybe the first members of folk of the Hammer of Wrath could be Rog's fellow escapees. There could be a scene in which Rog is being tortured be a Balrog, which could set up his hatred of Balrogs or even of one particular Balrog that he could meet again in Gondolin. Also, maybe Rog could take a hammer from a forge in Angband and use it as a weapon in his escape then continue using it as a weapon and the symbol of his house, the Hammer of Wrath. Or maybe the signal for the escape attempt could be a hammer striking an anvil, which would be the origin of the sign of the Stricken Anvil. Perhaps Sauron could get news of Rog's escape while its happening, but instead of sending forces to quell it, he releases Annael to go with the other escapees.

The reveal of the Kinslaying to Thingol and subsequent ban on Quenya is pretty well detailed in the Silmarillion and even has dialogue, so I think that scene should proceed just as it is in the book. Maybe, in a scene before the ban happens, Galadriel could be teaching Luthien a song in Quenya, which Thingol would afterwards tell Luthien not to sing. This would give Luthien a chance to argue against the ban and encourage reconciliation. She could even mention something about the importance of preserving Quenya as a language of lore so such songs would not be lost.

In order to show the effects of the ban, there could be a montage of the Noldor doing things like erasing Tengwar from carvings, unsewing it from tapestries, painting over it, and burning manuscripts (after copying them into Sindarin). If Orodreth's wedding comes after the ban, maybe there could be some kind of change in the ceremony that Orodreth would insist on in order to comply with the ban and one of the Feanorians or another less-repentant Noldo would comment on.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
How should Sauron be going about capturing Elves? There have been suggestions about who's in charge, I've indicated a preference for Sauron raiding settlements for questioning (and then later breaking).
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I feel like there shouldn't be any large-scale attacks on settlements to take prisoners, as this would make the Siege of Angband look ineffective. Maybe Sauron's forces could ambush small groups or lone Elves out travelling or exploring. Presumably, few Elves would escape from the attacks, so the news of them would spread slowly. There would be parallels with the Dark Rider from Cuivienen, and Sauron himself might even assume that form. Sauron and Thuringwethil could also disguise themselves or create phantoms in the forms of the friends or family of specific targets in order to lure them away, which could foreshadow the phantom of Eilinel that deceives Gorlim.

I could imagine a scene in which Angrod's wife is riding through the woods with several guards and then sees her husband riding towards them. He tells the guards that he needs to have a private word with his wife and takes her away from the group. Then, orcs or werewolves or cats jump out and kill the guards while Angrod reveals himself to be Sauron.

If Sauron goes after Curufin's wife, maybe he could deceive her by taking the form of Celebrimbor. In preparation for this, Sauron would have to study Celebrimbor a bit, which would help Sauron befriend Celebrimbor later as Annatar.

If Sauron goes after Caranthir's wife, it might be funny if he takes the form of Caranthir but makes some other Elves suspicious: "Did Caranthir seem a little too polite just now?" :)

Anyways, I don't think all the major characters who will get captured need to be deceived like this; some can just be taken prisoner after being defeated in battle, but it might be interesting to show deception being a large part of the project since it is Sauron's idea.

Another thing that might be interesting to show is one or more Dwarves being captured but refusing to work as slaves or be put under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. This would help characterize the Dwarves as stubborn and resistant to domination.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Will Rog escape on his own or lead a group of other slaves? The Fall of Gondolin says that the people of Rog's house "had been much recruited by Noldoli who escaped from the mines of Melko, and the hatred of this house for the works of that evil one and his demons was exceeding great," so maybe the first members of folk of the Hammer of Wrath could be Rog's fellow escapees. There could be a scene in which Rog is being tortured be a Balrog, which could set up his hatred of Balrogs or even of one particular Balrog that he could meet again in Gondolin. Also, maybe Rog could take a hammer from a forge in Angband and use it as a weapon in his escape then continue using it as a weapon and the symbol of his house, the Hammer of Wrath. Or maybe the signal for the escape attempt could be a hammer striking an anvil, which would be the origin of the sign of the Stricken Anvil. Perhaps Sauron could get news of Rog's escape while its happening, but instead of sending forces to quell it, he releases Annael to go with the other escapees.

The reveal of the Kinslaying to Thingol and subsequent ban on Quenya is pretty well detailed in the Silmarillion and even has dialogue, so I think that scene should proceed just as it is in the book. Maybe, in a scene before the ban happens, Galadriel could be teaching Luthien a song in Quenya, which Thingol would afterwards tell Luthien not to sing. This would give Luthien a chance to argue against the ban and encourage reconciliation. She could even mention something about the importance of preserving Quenya as a language of lore so such songs would not be lost.

In order to show the effects of the ban, there could be a montage of the Noldor doing things like erasing Tengwar from carvings, unsewing it from tapestries, painting over it, and burning manuscripts (after copying them into Sindarin). If Orodreth's wedding comes after the ban, maybe there could be some kind of change in the ceremony that Orodreth would insist on in order to comply with the ban and one of the Feanorians or another less-repentant Noldo would comment on.
Let me say welcome to the Silmfilm forums, Rhiannon! Good to have some new blood here. I hope that you find it easy to navigate on the forum. Please check out the FAQ and rules of conduct in the Main Forum section: https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?forums/main-forum.2/

Those suggestions are really good btw!
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
So basically what has to happen in E7 is this: We begin with the marriage of Orodreth and Meril. Happy times. Perhaps we have time to show Thingol or his people helping Finrod as well. Then we see Sauron & Co capturing elves, and when they return to Angband, Morgoth is gone, the throne is empty. Gothmog informs him that Lord Melkor said something about the second Children, and going to the East, and that he, Gothmog, was left in charge. He proceeds to go to force orcs to endure the light of the Sun. Sauron & Co get to interrogating their captives. They find out about the Kinslaying pretty soon. Then we go to Doriath and the Kinslaying reveal, the Ban and Luthien's attempts to work for reconciliation.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
So basically what has to happen in E7 is this: We begin with the marriage of Orodreth and Meril. Happy times. Perhaps we have time to show Thingol or his people helping Finrod as well. Then we see Sauron & Co capturing elves, and when they return to Angband, Morgoth is gone, the throne is empty. Gothmog informs him that Lord Melkor said something about the second Children, and going to the East, and that he, Gothmog, was left in charge. He proceeds to go to force orcs to endure the light of the Sun. Sauron & Co get to interrogating their captives. They find out about the Kinslaying pretty soon. Then we go to Doriath and the Kinslaying reveal, the Ban and Luthien's attempts to work for reconciliation.

To my understanding, Morgoth left Angband much earlier than this. I could be remembering incorrectly.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I think the siege of angband is very effective! The noldor have a series of war-camps all over ard-galen and angbands main-gates become pretty useless... there is little morgoth can do about it. There still ARE other exits from angband however... yet even with the well hidden posterns throughout the region - and the region is HUGE- MORGOTH cannot release a great army, or it would have to march a long stretch through the northern wastes all around ard galen!

That does not make him incapable of smallscale attacks ... but everytime the elves Spot a postern, they could destroy or block it, or at last put it under observation... so their effectiveness is limited...

That does not stop morgoth from releasing small troops for assassinations , hit and run attacks or suicidal missions however... and these still hurt!
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
To my understanding, Morgoth left Angband much earlier than this. I could be remembering incorrectly.
That’s a humble way of correcting hehe. You’ve written script outlines, right? But I just looked at the Gantt chart. Perhaps I made a mistake.

EDIT: Yes it seems the Gantt chart indicates that M goes East in E6. So, I guess it happened then.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think the siege of angband is very effective! The noldor have a series of war-camps all over ard-galen and angbands main-gates become pretty useless... there is little morgoth can do about it. There still ARE other exits from angband however... yet even with the well hidden posterns throughout the region - and the region is HUGE- MORGOTH cannot release a great army, or it would have to march a long stretch through the northern wastes all around ard galen!

That does not make him incapable of smallscale attacks ... but everytime the elves Spot a postern, they could destroy or block it, or at last put it under observation... so their effectiveness is limited...

That does not stop morgoth from releasing small troops for assassinations , hit and run attacks or suicidal missions however... and these still hurt!
Well, since the Siege has not yet been established, there’s more opportunity for Angband raiding parties to get to the rest of Beleriand. Maybe we show one raiding party after the Dagor Aglareb that doesn’t go through?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Ah, sorry if the Villains timeline is confusing. Morgoth cryptically announced his interest in the Second Children and left in Episode 2. We have seen Thuringwethil spying in episodes 4-6. So, we haven't seen much of Gothmog this season so far...time to check-in in Angband again, I think.

We will need Morgoth to return for a visit to Angband in these episodes so he can put Sauron's captives under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. The Catch-and-release program is a long term strategy, so this is just the beginning of it. I think it's okay if Sauron only has Edhellos (and unnamed extras) right now.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Perhaps that isn’t necessary. We can show most of what happens from an Elvish perspective.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
The Thingol helping Finrod thing - is that about Nargothrond, or the tower at Tol Sirion?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Oh, it was probably meant to be Nargothrond, and didn't get moved to the right episode. Oops. Let me update that..... [the tower of Minas Tirith at Tol Sirion is already built in Episode 4]

Finrod should be in Doriath (for some unspecified reason - visiting Galadriel?) when Círdan arrives with the message that the Fëanoreans burnt the ships and the Noldor are guilty of crimes against the Teleri.

But if we give Finrod some official business with Thingol at this time, that could make the way the kinslaying reveal plays out more interesting. So, what could they be discussing? Finrod could be promising to keep safe the pass with his tower at Tol Sirion. This would be meant as a reassurance for the elves living, say, in the Forest of Brethil, which is outside the Girdle of Melian. Perhaps Beleg and Mablung are in favor of 'patrolling' well outside Doriath's borders to ensure the safety of the Sindar....
 
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