Session 4-27, 4-28: Post-production Script Review, Parts 3 and 4

I wouldn't say imprisoning him in Angband (to give an example) is much of an improvement either.

How bad is my idea for Sauron?
I agree with you about Angrod being a prisoner.

I think your idea is fine. Sauron should definitely be doing something between the Dagor Aglareb and the Dagor Bragollach, and just because there isn't another major battle in that time doesn't mean that there is peace, especially at the borders. Sauron has certainly demonstrated a penchant for cruelty.
 
Sauron's role in Season 5 will be implementing his plan of having escaped 'puppets' working as spies/traitors/sleeper agents among the Noldor.

So, he will put a whammy on Annael (Spell of Not So Bottomless Dread-lite), and then 'allow' Annael to escape. (The viewers might not be aware of this until later) Once Annael is back in Mithrim, we will see how Annael is 'compelled' to report to Sauron or his agent (Thuringwethil), scenes that will likely involve sleepwalking. Eventually, an elf will catch him doing this, and report him to everyone else. Annael will deny the accusation vehemently (as far as he knows, he was asleep in his bed), but some evidence will come out, and the witness knew what he saw/heard...resulting in Annael's self-imposed banishment to the woods.

Annael need not be the only 'escaped' prisoner Sauron does this to, but he's the only one whose story we are following the whole way through. If we want a sleeper agent in Dorthonion pre-Dagor Bragollach...we can have one, and that will be Sauron's pivotal move for the season.
Wait... aren’t Mithrim and Dorthonion in different sections of Beleriand?
 
Rhiannon, I agree that eliminating the Scouring of the Shire, or replacing Glorfindel at the Ford with Arwen, or skipping Tom Bombadil altogether, are significant changes made to the Lord of the Rings novel in their adaptation to film. But not all of those changes are made solely for the reason of watching the time. I think every adaptation of Lord of the Rings (except ours!) will skip Tom Bombadil. He's silly, and very little that happens during that interlude will matter later. So, sure, you have to get the barrow-sword into Merry's hand, and you have to deal with some Ring-stuff, and there's Frodo's dreams, but...you can probably do all that without the detour through the Old Forest and the Barrow-downs and meeting Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. Swapping out Glorfindel is an adaptation choice with an obvious reason - it's a cool introduction scene and Glorfindel seems to be an awesome character; but we're never going to see him again post-Council of Elrond. So...why not use that introduction scene for a character you want to, you know, introduce? Bakshi chose Legolas, and Peter Jackson chose Arwen. We'll use it as the last hurrah for Glorfindel, a character whom the audience will have known for many seasons by that point, so it will be a fitting exit for him.

In the case of the death of Saruman, yes, the main constraint was time - they allowed themselves 12 minutes for the story from the fall of Barad-dur/Destruction of the Ring to the end credits, and the Scouring wasn't going to fit in that. But the reason they 'only' had 12 minutes was because they determined the audience would expect a relatively quick denouement once the story was wrapped up, and so introducing a 'side quest' at the end would feel like dragging things out. Obviously, there are people who felt Tolkien dragged out the ending of his book, too, but the point is that that choice was made to 'save time', but also to streamline the ending of the movie and focus on the most important characters (not Saruman). One could argue that the 'change' here was not killing Saruman in Isengard, but rather replacing the Scouring with a return to a peaceful Shire where the adventuring hobbits were now out of place. Meaning, summing up the entire point of that side story in a single image:

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Now, whether or not that image is poignant or well done or a valid replacement for the Scouring is a matter of opinion, but it's an adaptation choice.

We, too, must make adaptation choices. And those choices are meant to be about breathing life into a story and making it as hard-hitting and poignant and meaningful as we all know the Silmarillion to be, while keeping true to the themes and characters that Tolkien developed. We made a decision long ago not to limit ourselves simply to additions to the story. We have made changes, intentionally, and with reasons. Obviously, not everyone has been a huge fan of the deviations from the text that we've made, but we will continue to deviate. That is going to happen.

The long and short of it is that Tolkien killed Angrod in battle, and his 'significant' actions in the story were getting in a fight with Caranthir, spilling the beans of the Kinslaying to Thingol, and defending Dorthonion. We have him doing all of those things. We've at no point suggested that he not be himself. What has been suggested is an alteration to the timeline. It's hardly the only timeline alteration in Season 4, nor even the most significant one. I would say that honor probably falls on Finrod requesting Thingol's aid with the construction of Nargothrond after Thingol knows about the Kinslaying, rather than before. That is a shift in the timeline that profoundly alters the significance/meaning of an event. Not necessarily in a bad way or anything, but clearly the motivations there are not what Tolkien wrote. We've also made some location changes - the Mereth Aderthad is at Vinyamar rather than the Pools of Ivrin, and the Dagor Aglareb is at Minas Tirith and the Fens of Serech rather than Dorthonion. There were reasons for these alterations. Again, we might not all like those reasons, but we did make the changes.

At the end of the day, I am not going to say that I think killing Angrod at the Dagor Aglareb is a necessary change to make. I don't believe it is. But I also don't think it's a disastrous change that will have far-reaching consequences and make it difficult for us to tell the story we need to tell later. It's...simply not that big of a deal.

So, if you want to save Angrod and have him survive Season 4 and (most of) Season 5, then I suggest you write a scene where Gothmog kills Edhellos in the Dagor Aglareb, while Angrod and Aegnor witness this but live. Angrod has been granted a conditional reprieve. It's up to you to make use of it.
 
I would like Sauron to be doing something up to the Dagor Bragollach other than torturing prisoners, but I’m fine with him not being at the Dagor Aglareb. I have an idea of him killing Elves participating in the Siege of Angband every so often, and the carnage he leaves leads to his moniker “Gorthaur the Cruel”.

So, I'm not crazy about Sauron as serial killer. It doesn't seem like the calculating, pragmatic Sauron we've been portraying. Sure, it might elicit some terror from the Elves, but aren't there others here could send out to do this? He has vampires, werewolves, and cats at his disposal. Running around playing Zodiac Killer seems way beneath his pay grade.
 
So, if you want to save Angrod and have him survive Season 4 and (most of) Season 5, then I suggest you write a scene where Gothmog kills Edhellos in the Dagor Aglareb, while Angrod and Aegnor witness this but live. Angrod has been granted a conditional reprieve. It's up to you to make use of it.
I know, and I'm working on that now. But I still like the idea of Sauron killing Edhellos because of things like Narsil, and I have some ideas for how to make the Balrogs terrifying in battle without killing Angrod.
 
Narsil is a replacement for Aegnor's broken blade. If Gothmog is responsible for breaking Aegnor's sword, and thus indirectly responsible for Maedhros getting Telchar to forge Narsil for Aegnor....then that will be Gothmog's revenge for whatever Sauron is going to do in Gondolin that leads to Gothmog's demise.

In other words...we don't need Sauron personally here, but we do want to make connections to set up the significance of Narsil.

And a good basis for the 'swords are no more use here' line.
 
If Edhellos is killed by Gothmog and Angrod and Aegnor are witnesses who live....then they should be some way away, or I cannot see a reason that they would be spared. They’d go for Gothmog and be killed. Or am I missing something?
 
If Edhellos is killed by Gothmog and Angrod and Aegnor are witnesses who live....then they should be some way away, or I cannot see a reason that they would be spared. They’d go for Gothmog and be killed. Or am I missing something?
Maybe Aegnor gets his sword broken and then Gothmog punts him away?
 
Still...would he not kill Angrod?
I'm suggesting that maybe Angrod gets killed by Gothmog (I'm fine with killing him off), Aegnor tries to avenge him, gets his sword broken, and then gets punted. If Angrod and Aegnor facing Gothmog like that, I'm actually having a hard time as to how to keep Aegnor alive if he's going up against Gothmog.
 
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Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean by him being punted. Do you mean he’ll get thrown to the ground and presumed dead by Gothmog?
 
Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean by him being punted. Do you mean he’ll get thrown to the ground and presumed dead by Gothmog?
He gets kicked; I meant punting like in the American football sense. Not really sure what type of blow he could receive from Gothmog that wouldn't be fatal.
 
If Edhellos is killed by Gothmog and Angrod and Aegnor are witnesses who live....then they should be some way away, or I cannot see a reason that they would be spared. They’d go for Gothmog and be killed. Or am I missing something?
This was one of the reasons I decided to have Sauron kill Edhellos in the alternate script. If it were Gothmog, there would have to be some reason why he doesn’t immediately kill Aegnor after breaking his sword, and then he would get chased away by the soldiers of Dorthonion who have just seen their three leaders fall or lose their weapon. If it’s Sauron who kills Edhellos, he can easily escape after doing what he came to do.
 
I see. Sauron could use a milder version of the Dread, spreading fear on the battlefield, and paralysing Edhellos. He could then have Draugluin kill her off. Then he could just leave, if he wishes. He could choose not to fight Angrod (and Aegnor, if he has to be around).
 
I see. Sauron could use a milder version of the Dread, spreading fear on the battlefield, and paralysing Edhellos. He could then have Draugluin kill her off. Then he could just leave, if he wishes. He could choose not to fight Angrod (and Aegnor, if he has to be around).
Does Dragluin need to be the one to kill her off?
 
No, there’s no need. I’m just saying that, since the executives seemed unwilling to have Edhellos killed by Sauron, there are alternatives.
What's their problem with it? I wouldn't have a problem with having Sauron do his own dirty work from time to time.
 
What's their problem with it? I wouldn't have a problem with having Sauron do his own dirty work from time to time.
Did I misunderstand it? I wasn’t present and haven’t heard the session. Perhaps I got it wrong.
 
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