Few people 'allow' themselves to get captured. I'm not suggesting a situation where he just surrenders to Angband's forces and lays down his arms. I'm suggesting a situation where he is defeated in battle, possibly wounded, but not dead, and rather than killing him, they take him prisoner. If he was just facing a balrog, he's likely in no position to resist capture.Given what Angrod knows about captivity in Angband, I don’t think he would allow himself to get captured. Or, if they did manage to get him to Angband, he would escape or die trying.
Well, I think that the Hosts have no intention of dramatizing the philosophical debate between Finrod and Andreth about fate, death, immortality, the Fall of Men, the future incarnation of Christ, etc.Is it worth depicting the conversation between Finrod and Andreth?
Is it really a dry run for the Dagor Bragollach? I thought the rivers of fire don't come until later.Session 4-28 was 3 hours long. The video is available on Twitch here:
The first hour and half of the video is dedicated to intro and Episode 8. Starting at the 1:30, we switch to Episode 9.
In Episode 8, there were concerns with how the Spell of Bottomless Dread is depicted. There was a question of how this impacts Edhellos' free will - is she possessed by Morgoth, with no memory of the actions she takes while Morgoth turns her into a sock puppet and takes over driving the bus? And if so, how do we depict that?
For the Dagor Aglareb, Corey Olsen had several concerns he wanted to make sure were dealt with.
- Consensus was that the 'broken' aspect of seeing things from Edhellos' perspective would only happen when Morgoth is not running the show. She can see Morgoth's eyes in the people around her and suffer from her trauma in some way. She is unaware of the actions Morgoth forces her to perform.
- When Morgoth is running the show, we do not see the scene from Edhellos' perspective. We see this from someone else's point of view, and see that she is acting possessed/not herself. The importance for this choice is making sure Edhellos does not appear complicit or a traitor. Her will is not her own.
- He does not want this battle to be a 'dry run' for the Dagor Bragollach. He wants it to have an objective beyond merely testing the waters.
- The objective should be the capture of Minas Tirith and breaching the defenses of Northern Beleriand.
- Elves mowing down orcs like grain will be somewhat boring to watch.
- Creating stakes for the elves is necessary.
- The Dagor Aglareb is a failure for the villains. Therefore, someone needs egg on their face. Corey Olsen's strong preference is for Gothmog to suffer this humiliation. Gothmog is a hammer; blunt instrument, and a bit of a fool. This is the *only* real action Gothmog will take all season. His rivalry with Sauron is empty if he does nothing but sit in Angband and taunt Sauron.
- Rhiannon would prefer it be Sauron. Corey wants Sauron to be on the ascendant; all he does is win until he meets Lúthien and Huan.
- Leaving the balrogs out of the battle feels like foolish ofermod. There seems no reason (or only foolish/contrived reasons) to leave them out. It would require an explanation for the audience as to why they are absent.
- Corey is not worried about showing the balrogs retreating. They cut through their own troops pitilessly; they force their own troops towards the elves to stop pursuit and leave themselves. Ruthlessness rather than cowardice would be clear.
- The advantages of including the balrogs are that the battle is scarier (the orcs have a chance) and the balrogs get to demonstrate their traits in action and develop their characters a bit.
- The alternative to balrogs would be to have overwhelming numbers of orcs. A zombie horde is intimidating, even if each individual zombie is easy to kill.
- The outcome of this battle should be overconfidence on the part of the Noldor. That means they have to face more than merely orcs.
- Another question is how balrogs interact with armies.
- One option: They lead from the back, whipping the orcs into battle.
- Gothmog as leader can act differently from the other balrogs.
- If they do appear on the battlefield, we should give them the opportunity demonstrate their fighting skills.
- No matter what, Edhellos is dying in this episode. She has been developed as a character throughout this season, especially in Episode 6.
- The audience has gotten to know her, and by this point in the show, Edhellos is as important a character as her husband. (Though obviously she does not appear in the published Silmarillion.)
- Therefore, if Gothmog kills Edhellos, that will satisfy the requirements of the 'balrog rule.'
- Gothmog's motivation for killing Edhellos is to destroy Sauron's pet project. Perfect opportunity for him to namedrop 'Sauron'.
- Rhiannon wants Sauron to be present in the battle and to be the one to kill Edhellos. This allows for a personal confrontation between Sauron and Angrod and Aegnor.
- Corey Olsen does not see Sauron being on the battlefield, nor does he want Sauron's agents (werewolves, cats, vampires) as part of this battle.
- Angrod's death is not needed in this battle.
- He is a valid option for the 'balrog rule' death, because he has no further important role to play.
- There are reasons to kill him now. Corey Olsen sees better net gains from his death than his continued life at this point in the story, but is not wed to the idea of killing him at this moment.
- The death of Edhellos is sufficient pathos for one episode.
- Tolkien's decision to kill off minor characters is 'batches' (Angrod and Aegnor at the Dagor Bragollach; Celegorm, Curufin, and Caranthir in the Kinslaying at Doriath) fits the summary style of the published Silmarillion, but may be the type of detail we intentionally alter in our adaptation, by 'unbatching' the deaths.
- Rhiannon requested a chance to write a battle scene in which balrogs appear, but Sauron kills Edhellos.
- Corey's caveat was no werewolves or vampires, and that this be Gothmog's initiative and troops. (Having them capture Rhogrin and Annael outside the battlefield is fine.)
- "If a balrog doesn't get to smash anybody, I'm gonna get a little twitchy, though."
- Gothmog killing Angrod would be necessary if Sauron kills Edhellos.
I don't know if that is necessary. Taking the form of a woman's husband to extract information from her and psychologically torture her thereafter is pretty cruel.I would like Sauron to be doing something up to the Dagor Bragollach other than torturing prisoners, but I’m fine with him not being at the Dagor Aglareb. I have an idea of him killing Elves participating in the Siege of Angband every so often, and the carnage he leaves leads to his moniker “Gorthaur the Cruel”.
This isn’t for the Dagor Aglareb, this is for between that and the Dagor Bragollach as a general plot line for Sauron.I don't know if that is necessary. Taking the form of a woman's husband to extract information from her and psychologically torture her thereafter is pretty cruel.
Said Balrog could choose to just kill him; just look at Gothmog chopping Fingon in half in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. He could have just captured him and it would have accomplished the same thing: the field was lost. But he chose to kill him.Reason #1 the villains would be keen to get Angrod as a prisoner....
...all the other elven captives would see him, their former lord, enslaved.
That's pretty seriously demoralizing....
(And while the confusion with 'hey, is that just Sauron again?' could happen, the easiest way to clarify that is to have both Sauron and Angrod in a room at the same time. So, Sauron visits the prisoners, and the viewers aren't confused.)
Few people 'allow' themselves to get captured. I'm not suggesting a situation where he just surrenders to Angband's forces and lays down his arms. I'm suggesting a situation where he is defeated in battle, possibly wounded, but not dead, and rather than killing him, they take him prisoner. If he was just facing a balrog, he's likely in no position to resist capture.
I wouldn't say imprisoning him in Angband (to give an example) is much of an improvement either.*puts on Saving Angrod hat*
Yes, it would be possible for these roles to be played by other characters, and much of what exactly will happen in Season 5 is yet to be determined. I wanted to demonstrate that there is plenty for Angrod to do in Season 5 without overshadowing his brother and that the story will not necessarily be better for his not being there. That would depend on how we choose to write it.
The Silmarillion is an excellent story, and I think our adaptation should strive to be as close to the book as it written as possible. We are not constrained by limitations in things like the length of our show or the budget, so there is really no need to cut anything from the story and make changes based on that, for example:
I'm fine with adding to the story; we must add material in order to make The Silmarillion into a full TV show. But changing the story is a different matter. We should be sure that any changes we make are improvements to the story. Angrod's death is not an improvement. To quote Leaf by Niggle, "'Things might have been different, but they could not have been better.'"
*does not take off Saving Angrod hat*