Session 5-09: Aegnor and Elves

Alcarlótë

Active Member
What is wrong about the swords? Melian senses a darkness about them when she’s in their presence. Does she sense what deeds will be wrought with that sword? And they seem to be alive as Anglachel blunts when Beleg is killed, the sword speaks (depends on if we want it to be in Turin’s head or an actual voice others could hear), and breaks when Turin uses it to take his own life

"Melian looked at the blade; and she said: 'There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you long.'"

The chief works of a creator can take after that creator, and considering this quote I wouldn't put it past Eol to even have inserted a little bit of his power into these two blades; but there's no need to figure out or explain the mechanics of that to the audience, at least at this point. Melian sees Beleg's end coming in some way, but what makes the swords special is Eol's "dark heart" dwelling in it. If the resulting malice and not-love actually shape our story of Turin and whether we make Anglachel an antagonist managing to get Beleg killed and encouraging Turin to kill himself is a question for another season down the road.

Regardless, it'd be prudent to at least give the story of the swords again, mention that they're special in terms of material and character - in my mind it'd work best with Eol showing off Anguirel to his dwarf friends, explaining how he made it from meteor iron and showing how well it can cut. They ask if he only made one, he grimly tells the tale of how he had to give Anglachel to Thingol. Maeglin stands by and says nothing, like he will do often. But his scheming and possessive nature shows when Maeglin steals Anguirel out of greed and takes it with him to Gondolin (maybe it comes up in future stories, like a Tuor-Turin connection?). At that point Aredhel gives a warning similar to Melian's, but more vague. Maeglin replies that the sword will serve Maeglin, Eol's son and prince of Gondolin.
 
Last edited:

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
To switch topics: what's going to be Maedhros' spin on things? He's going to be interacting with the House of Hador somewhat, possibly rescuing Amlach from Sauron's Orcs, and is responsible for closing the Pass of Aglon as the Dagor Bragollach winds down. Now, the Hosts said that Maedhros would have the most human-like perspective of the Noldor and one of the hardliners against Morgoth. And yet when Fingolfin calls upon the Big Push to bring down Morgoth, he is one of those who does not support him; in fact the only ones who support him are Angrod and Aegnor. It seems unlike Maedhros to not advocate for Morgoth's downfall.
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
On the other hand, being concerned with Morgoth's armies increasing in strength faster than Elves and Men multiply sounds like a good reason to attack as soon as possible (since the Noldor aren't giving up hope just yet) - Morgoth's advantage will grow over time. A possible reason for thinking an attack should wait for a while is that the Feanorians, in the wake of the Edain settling in, recruit more and more Easterlings and are impressed just how fast human populations can grow when you offer them safety, rich lands and medical assistance. But especially Maedhros with his strong conviction and the Oath looming overhead needs a reason to think they'll be in a better position in the future than they are in now, otherwise not attacking as soon as the Edain are somewhat ready seems foolish.
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
On a different matter: Has Huan's part of the Doom of the Noldor - dying after meeting the mightiest wolf of all time - been established yet? The "can speak with words three times" matter could be made a surprise, but it would be bad to have Morgoth and Sauron either suddenly knowing about it or having Carcharoth being raised by Morgoth as the mightiest wolf of all time be merely a lucky coincidence. I think this could be a part of the subplot of the Dagor Bragollach that establishes Celegorm and Curufin as going to Nargothrond (which is important regardless).

It'd help build tension for Season 5 to have Draugluin go into the Dagor Bragollach thinking that he is the one to kill Huan, with a hint that Morgoth has a backup plan for the more attentive viewers. Also, since Thuringwethil will meet her end at Tol-in-Gaurhoth as well (even if we don't know how exactly yet), it would make sense for her to be involved; maybe by being the one that finds out about Huan's doom by spying if that still needs to be set up. Also, her part in the Dagor Bragollach could involve trying to weaken the defenses of the important Aglon Pass (where Celegorm is) by infiltrating them as an elf, which Huan might stop her from doing, establishing how good he is at seeing through illusions and similar magical effects - to set up how he discovers Luthien despite all her efforts to stay hidden on her way out of Doriath. But I'm talking myself very deep into this pretty quickly, so I'd like to hear what others think about this :) I'd certainly be interested in working out the details on how Celegorm and Huan fare during the Dagor Bragollach and how it affects them.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
On a different matter: Has Huan's part of the Doom of the Noldor - dying after meeting the mightiest wolf of all time - been established yet? The "can speak with words three times" matter could be made a surprise, but it would be bad to have Morgoth and Sauron either suddenly knowing about it or having Carcharoth being raised by Morgoth as the mightiest wolf of all time be merely a lucky coincidence. I think this could be a part of the subplot of the Dagor Bragollach that establishes Celegorm and Curufin as going to Nargothrond (which is important regardless).

It'd help build tension for Season 5 to have Draugluin go into the Dagor Bragollach thinking that he is the one to kill Huan, with a hint that Morgoth has a backup plan for the more attentive viewers. Also, since Thuringwethil will meet her end at Tol-in-Gaurhoth as well (even if we don't know how exactly yet), it would make sense for her to be involved; maybe by being the one that finds out about Huan's doom by spying if that still needs to be set up. Also, her part in the Dagor Bragollach could involve trying to weaken the defenses of the important Aglon Pass (where Celegorm is) by infiltrating them as an elf, which Huan might stop her from doing, establishing how good he is at seeing through illusions and similar magical effects - to set up how he discovers Luthien despite all her efforts to stay hidden on her way out of Doriath. But I'm talking myself very deep into this pretty quickly, so I'd like to hear what others think about this :) I'd certainly be interested in working out the details on how Celegorm and Huan fare during the Dagor Bragollach and how it affects them.
We have thoughts on Huan Here.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
On the other hand, being concerned with Morgoth's armies increasing in strength faster than Elves and Men multiply sounds like a good reason to attack as soon as possible (since the Noldor aren't giving up hope just yet) - Morgoth's advantage will grow over time. A possible reason for thinking an attack should wait for a while is that the Feanorians, in the wake of the Edain settling in, recruit more and more Easterlings and are impressed just how fast human populations can grow when you offer them safety, rich lands and medical assistance. But especially Maedhros with his strong conviction and the Oath looming overhead needs a reason to think they'll be in a better position in the future than they are in now, otherwise not attacking as soon as the Edain are somewhat ready seems foolish.
Yes. Maedhros was all gung-ho 'we should attack Morgoth right away!' when he was first rescued. Fingolfin pointed out to him that he personally wasn't ready for that, and neither were their people, so a siege would be a better plan. Maedhros accepted that, but did what he could to fortify Eastern Beleriand and be prepared for as soon as Fingolfin was ready. Season 4 Maedhros was portrayed as impatient with the other Noldor for insufficient enthusiasm when it came to building fortifications for the siege.

So why, 400 years later, does he decide 'no'? That is something our show will have to answer very clearly, based on who Maedhros has been shown to be to this point. I think that, with this season being post Glaurung reveal, Maedhros can be shown to be alarmed by the strength of Angband and concerned that they are not ready to meet it. He could express doubts about how strong the Men will be in a battle. Or he could be holding out for bigger armies of Men to have at their disposal before attacking. Regardless of his reasons, he will have to tell Fingolfin that he missed the window to attack, and has to wait for a better opportunity now. Assuming we are keeping his stance what it is in the text, he will have to decline Fingolfin's invitation to direct war while still adhering to the Oath. And therefore he will have to have a very different opinion than he did post Dagor Aglareb.
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
We have thoughts on Huan Here.
Thanks, I'll gather my thoughts and post a comment in that thread! At the moment, I like the idea that Huan himself knows about his part in the Doom of the Noldor, but we still have a lot to do spreading that knowledge to Angband. Either Celegorm or a close associate of his will look stupid getting tricked into revealing the prophecy to a spy (which isn't necessarily a bad idea) or the bad guys have already figured out that Huan is basically invulnerable to whatever they attacked him with as he lead cavalry charges into enemy ranks without any protection, but never sustained an impairing injury. That way they'd only need less specific information from a spying mission, like Celegorm wanting to avoid future contact between Huan and the most powerful werewolves; Sauron and/or Morgoth can have their own insight from there.


Yes. Maedhros was all gung-ho 'we should attack Morgoth right away!' when he was first rescued. Fingolfin pointed out to him that he personally wasn't ready for that, and neither were their people, so a siege would be a better plan. Maedhros accepted that, but did what he could to fortify Eastern Beleriand and be prepared for as soon as Fingolfin was ready. Season 4 Maedhros was portrayed as impatient with the other Noldor for insufficient enthusiasm when it came to building fortifications for the siege.

So why, 400 years later, does he decide 'no'? That is something our show will have to answer very clearly, based on who Maedhros has been shown to be to this point. I think that, with this season being post Glaurung reveal, Maedhros can be shown to be alarmed by the strength of Angband and concerned that they are not ready to meet it. He could express doubts about how strong the Men will be in a battle. Or he could be holding out for bigger armies of Men to have at their disposal before attacking. Regardless of his reasons, he will have to tell Fingolfin that he missed the window to attack, and has to wait for a better opportunity now. Assuming we are keeping his stance what it is in the text, he will have to decline Fingolfin's invitation to direct war while still adhering to the Oath. And therefore he will have to have a very different opinion than he did post Dagor Aglareb.
I like the direction of Maedhros hoping for more Men from the East to join them best; this is the "Arrival of Men" season, and it should be clear the influx of Men from the East is far from over. Not attacking because you feel unsure about the likelyhood of victory is a good first step, but it needs to be backed up by hope for a future where victory is more likely than now. There's no keeping the Oath without planning to attack eventually, and only cowardice would explain delaying that attack when delaying lowers your apparent chance of success. Additionally, if Morgoth is too strong now and is predicted to grow stronger at a faster pace than Elves and Men, there's no hope for future military victories left. But that's only true post-Nirnaeth Arnoediad, since the Fifth Battle will be entirely winnable from Maedhros' perspective (despite how unexpectedly bad the Dagor Bragollach went, which he doesn't know yet!).

Another (additional?) reason for believing attacking isn't the best way to win the war might be to expect an attack out of Angband in the near future that Elves and Men will be able to repel thanks to their fortifications, which would leave Morgoth open for a counterattack after he suffered huge losses in the field. It's a reasonable belief that having the defender's advantage during the early and most intense phase of a siege-heavy war instead of letting Morgoth have that advantage all the way might be the best or the only hope Elves and Men have to win.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Thanks, I'll gather my thoughts and post a comment in that thread! At the moment, I like the idea that Huan himself knows about his part in the Doom of the Noldor, but we still have a lot to do spreading that knowledge to Angband. Either Celegorm or a close associate of his will look stupid getting tricked into revealing the prophecy to a spy (which isn't necessarily a bad idea) or the bad guys have already figured out that Huan is basically invulnerable to whatever they attacked him with as he lead cavalry charges into enemy ranks without any protection, but never sustained an impairing injury. That way they'd only need less specific information from a spying mission, like Celegorm wanting to avoid future contact between Huan and the most powerful werewolves; Sauron and/or Morgoth can have their own insight from there.




I like the direction of Maedhros hoping for more Men from the East to join them best; this is the "Arrival of Men" season, and it should be clear the influx of Men from the East is far from over. Not attacking because you feel unsure about the likelyhood of victory is a good first step, but it needs to be backed up by hope for a future where victory is more likely than now. There's no keeping the Oath without planning to attack eventually, and only cowardice would explain delaying that attack when delaying lowers your apparent chance of success. Additionally, if Morgoth is too strong now and is predicted to grow stronger at a faster pace than Elves and Men, there's no hope for future military victories left. But that's only true post-Nirnaeth Arnoediad, since the Fifth Battle will be entirely winnable from Maedhros' perspective (despite how unexpectedly bad the Dagor Bragollach went, which he doesn't know yet!).

Another (additional?) reason for believing attacking isn't the best way to win the war might be to expect an attack out of Angband in the near future that Elves and Men will be able to repel thanks to their fortifications, which would leave Morgoth open for a counterattack after he suffered huge losses in the field. It's a reasonable belief that having the defender's advantage during the early and most intense phase of a siege-heavy war instead of letting Morgoth have that advantage all the way might be the best or the only hope Elves and Men have to win.
Not sure if the Easterlings’ arrival is on the books for this season.
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
We probably can't have them actually settling in with the Elves in significant numbers or fighting with them this season, but the Feanorians could certainly start their recruitment efforts now that the sons of Finarfin and Fingolfin have their share of Men living with them. It's just the trendy (and sensible) thing to do after the stockade battle and Hador's impressive deeds. Scouts that crossed the Ered Luin would report lots of new tribes of Men coming west, and that first contact was friendly despite linguistic difficulties (the wise among the Easterlings might know a bit of Avarin). Maybe we even can end Amlach's story with a desire of his to recruit more men for the fight against Morgoth, so he can be their leader as Maedhros' resident "Man-expert". We are planning to make Amlach a decently important character, so it'd be nice to not drop him completely after the Council's aftermath.
 
Last edited:

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
We probably can't have them actually settling in with the Elves in significant numbers or fighting with them this season, but the Feanorians could certainly start their recruitment efforts now that the sons of Finarfin and Fingolfin have their share of Men living with them. It's just the trendy (and sensible) thing to do after the stockade battle and Hador's impressive deeds. Scouts that crossed the Ered Luin would report lots of new tribes of Men coming west, and that first contact was friendly despite linguistic difficulties (the wise among the Easterlings might know a bit of Avarin). Maybe we even can end Amlach's story with a desire of his to recruit more men for the fight against Morgoth, so he can be their leader as Maedhros' resident "Man-expert". We are planning to make Amlach a decently important character, so it'd be nice to not drop him completely after the Council's aftermath.
It might not be Amlach, since he might be dead by the Dagor Bragollach (he's older than Hador and Hador, at this point, is slated to be dead by the Dagor Bragollach).
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Fingolfin's plan to attack will also be dead before the Dagor Bragollach.

But yes, it may be possible to tease the coming of the Easterlings during this season.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Yes. Maedhros was all gung-ho 'we should attack Morgoth right away!' when he was first rescued. Fingolfin pointed out to him that he personally wasn't ready for that, and neither were their people, so a siege would be a better plan. Maedhros accepted that, but did what he could to fortify Eastern Beleriand and be prepared for as soon as Fingolfin was ready. Season 4 Maedhros was portrayed as impatient with the other Noldor for insufficient enthusiasm when it came to building fortifications for the siege.

So why, 400 years later, does he decide 'no'? That is something our show will have to answer very clearly, based on who Maedhros has been shown to be to this point. I think that, with this season being post Glaurung reveal, Maedhros can be shown to be alarmed by the strength of Angband and concerned that they are not ready to meet it. He could express doubts about how strong the Men will be in a battle. Or he could be holding out for bigger armies of Men to have at their disposal before attacking. Regardless of his reasons, he will have to tell Fingolfin that he missed the window to attack, and has to wait for a better opportunity now. Assuming we are keeping his stance what it is in the text, he will have to decline Fingolfin's invitation to direct war while still adhering to the Oath. And therefore he will have to have a very different opinion than he did post Dagor Aglareb.
Maedhros's views on attacking Angband won't be doing a complete 180 between the beginning of Season 4 and Season 5. In Episode 8 of Season 4, he informs Celebrimbor and Orodreth that the Noldor do not have the strength to attack Angband and rescue Edhellos and Diriel. In Episode 10, after the Dagor Aglareb, Maedhros voices his concerns to his brothers about the other Noldor being less prepared to handle threats from Angband than the Feanorians, which is part of the reason he gives horses to Fingon and Narsil to Aegnor. In Episode 13, he expresses his concerns to Fingonlfin about Turgon and Finrod building secret realms and not being part of the siege.

I don't think we will need to do a lot of groundwork to explain why Maedhros declines Fingolfin's invitation to attack Angband in addition to what's already been done in Season 4. When talking to Fingolfin in Season 5, Maedhros can bring up these points again and make additional arguments about the forces of Men not being strong enough. He can also emphasize that there is no way the Sindar would fight alongside the Feanorians in Fingolfin's proposed assault because they know about the Kinslaying.
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
Maedhros's views on attacking Angband won't be doing a complete 180 between the beginning of Season 4 and Season 5. In Episode 8 of Season 4, he informs Celebrimbor and Orodreth that the Noldor do not have the strength to attack Angband and rescue Edhellos and Diriel. In Episode 10, after the Dagor Aglareb, Maedhros voices his concerns to his brothers about the other Noldor being less prepared to handle threats from Angband than the Feanorians, which is part of the reason he gives horses to Fingon and Narsil to Aegnor. In Episode 13, he expresses his concerns to Fingonlfin about Turgon and Finrod building secret realms and not being part of the siege.

I don't think we will need to do a lot of groundwork to explain why Maedhros declines Fingolfin's invitation to attack Angband in addition to what's already been done in Season 4. When talking to Fingolfin in Season 5, Maedhros can bring up these points again and make additional arguments about the forces of Men not being strong enough. He can also emphasize that there is no way the Sindar would fight alongside the Feanorians in Fingolfin's proposed assault because they know about the Kinslaying.
It's helpful that his opinion is pretty well established by then, but he still needs to be able to answer the question what his alternative plan to defeat Morgoth is. Waiting is a bad idea when the enemy's advantage is growing every day, and he swore an Oath to make war upon Morgoth and get the Silmarils back. That Oath doesn't call for immediate action, but it's too important and pressing to let the Feanorians sit around without an idea of how they'll get the Silmarils back. What are they waiting for? The Oath is too important and central to the story for them to not have it play into the Feanorian plans and outlook. They aren't operating on the same premises as the other Noldor, they can't be content with keeping Morgoth contained as long as possible (especially if they know his advantage will keep increasing). Sure, the C-trio are hypocritical enough to only care about the Oath when weaker people get involved in the Silmaril story, but it would seem wildly out of character for Maedhros at this point.

So the Feanorians should have an actual plan, or at least reason for hope, of winning this war. Personally, I'm leaning towards the "Let him attack so we can counter it" plan, because it's a more passive version of what Maedhros will try with the Nirnaeth Arnoediad anyway: Baiting Morgoth into attacking them in a way they can exploit.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
To change gears: one of the other plotlines surrounding Fingolfin is Annael, since his son is a subordinate under Fingon. Annael is scheduled to commit some act of treachery under Sauron's direction this season, and we've thrown some ideas around, ie Thurwingwethil being present to direct his movements. How should he betray Fingolfin? Theft? Attempted assassination? Killing of sentries?
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Sorry for not following up things you guys have written, but I was thinking about Aegnor and Angrod. They’re going to die together, so we need a good story arch building up to that end. I suggest that they have relational problems. In the beginning, Angrod mourns. How? I’m not sure, but he could be dissatisfied with how Aegnor acts, even though Aegnor wants to console him. Aegnor then meets Andreth, which should make Angrod even more unhappy. Perhaps Angrod advises his brother to avoid the woman. Then they could either find each other again before the end, or not - depending on how dark we want their deaths to be.
 
Last edited:

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Sorry for not following up things you guys have written, but I was thinking about Aegnor and Angrod. They’re going to die together, so we need a good story arch building up to that end. I suggest that they have relational problems. In the beginning, Angrod mourns. How? I’m not sure, but he could be dissatisfied with how Aegnor acts, even though Aegnor wants to console him. Aegnor then meets Andreth, which should make Angrod even more unhappy. Perhaps Angrod advises his brother to avoid the woman. Then they could either find each other again before the end, or not - deletion how dark we want their deaths to be.
I could see Angrod advising Aegnor to break things off with Andreth (Andreth seems more bitter about it in the Athrabeth so the breaking off is likely on Aegnor's end). Also, Angrod and Aegnor are the ones who are supposed to agree with Fingolfin about "the big push" against Angband. I think that has to do with Dorthonion being on the front lines, i.e. what would be hit first if an assault from Angband were to occur. Sure enough, when the Dagor Bragollach hits, Angrod and Aegnor are the most notable KIAs. As for finding each other before the end, I'm don't think that's going to be the case since the plan appears to have Andreth surviving the Dagor Bragollach and since the House of Bëor is evacuating, Aegnor would be pressed for time to see her one last time.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
For Angrod discouraging Aegnor and Andreth, he might cite what happened to Edhellos as a reason not to have a wartime relationship, let alone a marriage.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
As for finding each other before the end, I'm don't think that's going to be the case since the plan appears to have Andreth surviving the Dagor Bragollach and since the House of Bëor is evacuating, Aegnor would be pressed for time to see her one last time.
I was thinking about the brothers finding each other again, but yes! I agree, Aegnor and Andreth should not find each other before he dies. She has to have questions to ask after Dagor B.
 
Top