Session 5-09: Aegnor and Elves

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I was thinking about the brothers finding each other again, but yes! I agree, Aegnor and Andreth should not find each other before he dies. She has to have questions to ask after Dagor B.
I have a concept of them going down in the heat of battle, maybe going head-to-head with somebody like Gothmog and dying. Then when the survivors come and look through the aftermath, Aegnor's sword is recovered (remember he has Narsil), Andreth and Finrod (who is fresh off being saved by Barahir), they exchange some words, and the House of Bëor flees to Dor-Lomin and Brethil.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Another important point is that our Andreth, as the primary reasonable voice against Elf-Human cohabitation, can't just leave her people to go and live with Aegnor amongst the Elves without looking like a huge hypocrite. For them to be together, Aegnor would have to abandon his post and live amongst the Beorians. At least for the span of Andreth's life.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Another important point is that our Andreth, as the primary reasonable voice against Elf-Human cohabitation, can't just leave her people to go and live with Aegnor amongst the Elves without looking like a huge hypocrite. For them to be together, Aegnor would have to abandon his post and live amongst the Beorians. At least for the span of Andreth's life.
He’s not going that far to abandon his post, Ladros is practically the next state over (in US state terms) and still on the front lines (it’d be like going from New Jersey to Pennsylvania (minus the Delaware River)). It would be something different if he was going someplace as far as Ossiriand.

On the other hand, if Andreth is against Elf-Human cohabitation, then why does she fall in love with Andreth and why is she so bitter about the whole relationship when she talks to Finrod in the Athrabeth? If she was against Elf-human relationships it would validate that point, she wouldn’t care.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
He’s not going that far to abandon his post, Ladros is practically the next state over (in US state terms) and still on the front lines (it’d be like going from New Jersey to Pennsylvania (minus the Delaware River)). It would be something different if he was going someplace as far as Ossiriand.

On the other hand, if Andreth is against Elf-Human cohabitation, then why does she fall in love with Andreth and why is she so bitter about the whole relationship when she talks to Finrod in the Athrabeth? If she was against Elf-human relationships she wouldn’t care.
This isn't the modern world where the next state is several hours drive. This is a world where if Aegnor packs up to move in with the Beorians, he can no longer conduct business as a prince of the Noldor. His position as a leader far outweighs his position as an individual warrior. Sure, if there was a war, he'd still fight in it, but he can't lead his people as he is supposed to do.


As to Andreth's motivations, having problems with the idea of humans and Elves living amongst each other doesn't make her anti-Elf per se. It is just a recognition of the facts at hand. I don't think her falling in love with an Elf is the problem. The problem is what the plan is for their future together.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
For Angrod discouraging Aegnor and Andreth, he might cite what happened to Edhellos as a reason not to have a wartime relationship, let alone a marriage.
That's an interesting notion: Angrod disapproves of the budding relationship, but "she's not an Elf" isn't even in his top 5 reasons why.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
That's an interesting notion: Angrod disapproves of the budding relationship, but "she's not an Elf" isn't even in his top 5 reasons why.
Well it's certainly a reason, but not the top of the list for Angrod. Elves have that unspoken rule/law about not raising families in wartime and Edhellos' loss is going to factor into that (which makes Gil-Galad's birth an oddity since Orodreth holds a strategic keypoint into Beleriand). Angrod and Edhellos might see each other again, but there's even less certainty with Elves and Humans.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
This isn't the modern world where the next state is several hours drive. This is a world where if Aegnor packs up to move in with the Beorians, he can no longer conduct business as a prince of the Noldor. His position as a leader far outweighs his position as an individual warrior. Sure, if there was a war, he'd still fight in it, but he can't lead his people as he is supposed to do.


As to Andreth's motivations, having problems with the idea of humans and Elves living amongst each other doesn't make her anti-Elf per se. It is just a recognition of the facts at hand. I don't think her falling in love with an Elf is the problem. The problem is what the plan is for their future together.
And Angrod can't pick up the slack? What do he and Aegnor do that makes the other essential?

On Andreth: I still can't really get behind her wanting Elves and Men to live apart if she was going to be attached to Aegnor much more than a mere flirtation. I just don’t see her heart in the relationship.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Sometimes when you fall in love, it doesn't really make sense. Thus, you have to wrestle with what you ought to do about it. I think we should show Andreth wrestling with the tension between her love of Aegnor and her conviction that Men are better living apart from Elves - in friendship, but not intermingled.
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
Considering how positively we want to portray Andreth, she can't lead her people out of Nargothrond just to live with other elves and at least look like a big hypocrite.

On the other hand, I don't see why they can't live a distance apart that clearly seperates their societies, but isn't a problem to travel by horseback - select what you like best from roughly 10-45 miles and anything between daily and monthly meetings. We don't have to pick between "They're so far apart that there's no way of meeting regularly without abandoning your responsibilities" and "Their people are next door neighbors". There's a sensible middle ground here if we need it.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Considering how positively we want to portray Andreth, she can't lead her people out of Nargothrond just to live with other elves and at least look like a big hypocrite.

On the other hand, I don't see why they can't live a distance apart that clearly seperates their societies, but isn't a problem to travel by horseback - select what you like best from roughly 10-45 miles and anything between daily and monthly meetings. We don't have to pick between "They're so far apart that there's no way of meeting regularly without abandoning your responsibilities" and "Their people are next door neighbors". There's a sensible middle ground here if we need it.
Then why is she the one who acts like the wounded party later on? If she makes the conscious choice to move to Dorthonion/Ladros to be away from Elves and Aegnor breaks things off she shouldn’t be so bitter in the Athrabeth later on.
 
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Alcarlótë

Active Member
Then why is she the one who acts like the wounded party later on? If she makes the conscious choice to move to Dorthonion/Ladros to be away from Elves and Aegnor breaks things off she shouldn’t be so bitter in the Athrabeth later on.
Well I'm proposing a medium-distance (~10-45 miles) relationship with regular meetings (~daily-monthly), and the Men might well move there before the relationship even (seriously) starts, since this distance is well-suited to her people as well - close enough to trade with elves, far away enough to not meet them all the time. But even if not, I don't see why they need to be closer than this to actually have a meaningful relationship - I picture romantic meetings and joint journeys, not them moving in together or something similar.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I was working a late shift, so I had to miss the first part of tonight's session. As soon as I have the chance, I'll watch the video on Twitch and make notes on what I missed. For now, here's what I have:

EDIT: I went back and added the notes on what I missed.

SilmFilm Session 5-09: Storylines pt. 5

Compression of timelines should come in the front half of the timelines. The House of Beor can live in Nargothrond for about half of Beor's life then leave about 50 years after his death. Boron and Baran will live and die offstage. Andreth is four generations removed from Beor and born after he dies. This gives the sense that Beor is ancient history to Andreth and Barahir and introduces a gap. Andreth is kind of in a parallel position to Beor because she is leading her people to a different place.

Why is Andreth the leader so young? The concept that 20-year-olds are immature is relatively modern. Andreth would have been considered an adult for many years already. Andreth's story will be breaking several tropes because she is a young woman who leads with her mind.

Andreth’s leadership would fit with the culture of the House of Bëor. They will not be led by a warrior leader, but by a council of wise people.
Andreth should be a prodigy in the House of Bëor and have been groomed for leadership from a young age. She is smarter and more eloquent than everyone else. When she meets Aegnor, she will be in a different position.

There could be resistance to Andreth's ideas, but she would win the debate. Most people are not resistant to Andreth’s arguments. She will articulate the what the majority of her people desire and become their spokesperson to Finrod. She has to convince Finrod that the House of Bëor should leave.

Adanel can be alive when Bëor is alive in order for us to introduce her. She can be present for Bëor’s death. She can be in a position of leadership after the death of Bëor. The leadership position does not need to be official; Adanel is just the one that people come to for advice. It can become more official later on, and she might get a sign of office that she passes to Andreth. Perhaps a stole or cape. She should change it into something else when passing it to Barahir. Maybe a banner. It can have serpent designs like the Ring of Barahir.

Genealogies

We need lots of named characters to die in the Dagor Bragollach.

Haleth and Andreth will be contemporaries. We could have them meet to show their different positions their houses tale on living with Elves. Andreth would initially admire Haleth but realize that the Haladin are too extreme. We don’t want the final scene of Haleth to portray her negatively. There could be disagreement between Haleth and Andreth, but Haleth would still be satisfied with her way of life. There would be a lot of mutual respect, and some obvious parallels because they are both young women who lead their people.

Andreth and Aegnor relationship

Andreth should not meet Aegnor until the House of Bëor moves to Dorthonion because there should be no implication that Andreth moved her people just so she could be close to Aegnor. Their relationship can be ironic, but Andreth should not look hypocritical.

What do Andreth and Aegnor see in each other? Aegnor would be attracted to Andreth for her wisdom. She would be a very fast learner. Andreth can be pretty but she does not need to be super attractive. Andreth meets Aegnor when he comes to visit the House of Bëor. Finrod would tell his brothers to welcome to Dorthonion, and Aegnor might live with them for a few years.

Andreth may not fall in love with Aegnor right away. She would admire Aegnor’s dedication to fighting Morgoth. Aegnor could be really funny and different from Finrod. Andreth enjoys Aegnor’s company and slowly realizes that she is in love with him and he is in love with her. Elven and Human perspectives will seem alien to each other. The differences in perspectives will be part of what attracts Aegnor and Andreth, but it will also be what means they cannot be together. This will cause Andreth to become bitter towards Elves later in her life.

Aegnor recognizes that the Long Peace is ending. He is one of the main spokespeople in favor of attacking Angband. He tells Andreth that Elves do not marry in times of war, but she does not get it. She sees this as a reason not to wait. Maybe Andreth wants a child.

Andreth will pass leadership on to Barahir when she recognizes that the House of Bëor needs an active leader. Why does Barahir become leader instead of Bregor? He needs to get screen time before he rescues Finrod. We can come up with plenty of reasons that leadership passes over Bregor. He might be incapable or unwilling. He could suggest that Barahir become leader instead.

It is not just about individual named characters that die in the Dagor Bragollach. Almost the entire house of Bëor will be destroyed.

Andreth and Aegnor’s relationship would not be a secret. They would seem close, but most people would not realize their relationship is romantic. Finrod would perceive the romance.

Aegnor would talk to Angrod about his feelings for Andreth. Angrod would oppose the relationship. He knows how it feels to lose one’s spouse and recognizes the inevitable tragedy of marrying a mortal, even if Andreth and Aegnor had a child. If the child were an Elf, the mother would not live to see him/her grow up. The Gift of Men would also be an issue.

Andreth does not need a confidant among her own house. Her conversation with Finrod is the first time she opens up about her relationship with Aegnor.
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
It was suggested in the session that the House of Beor adopt the serpent motif that appears on Finrod's ring and use it as a symbol of their house. However, I suggest that they use the heraldic device Tolkien designed for Finrod (top left), which depicts a harp that would be reminiscent of Finrod's discovery of the House of Beor.

The first device in the second row is one that Tolkien drew specifically for the House of Beor, so it would be neat if we could work that in as well.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks for posting your notes, Rhiannon!

Certainly, we were given some flexibility in designing the hat/stole/staff/cape of office for the House of Bëor. I agree that once we get to the banner part, it makes sense to utilize Tolkien's heraldic devices.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Thanks for posting your notes, Rhiannon!

Certainly, we were given some flexibility in designing the hat/stole/staff/cape of office for the House of Bëor. I agree that once we get to the banner part, it makes sense to utilize Tolkien's heraldic devices.
What are we supposed to work on for next week?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The Hosts said we would begin discussing the storylines of Aegnor, Angrod, and Finrod.
Well, we’ve discussed Finrod in a fair amount of detail. Aegnor’s plot is mainly dominated by his relationship with Andreth and the Dagor Bragollach. Angrod would discourage him from going too far with her. As for other stuff that happens to him this season: his grandson Gil-Galad is born to Orodreth and Meril (we’ve decided that he’s Orodreth’s son, right?).
 
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