Session 5-09: Aegnor and Elves

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
A big question we need to answer about Andreth and Aegnor's relationship is how it starts. Is there a "love at first sight moment," or is it more gradual? Does she fall in love with him, he with her, or is their mutual attraction from the beginning? Where and why do they meet?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
A big question we need to answer about Andreth and Aegnor's relationship is how it starts. Is there a "love at first sight moment," or is it more gradual? Does she fall in love with him, he with her, or is their mutual attraction from the beginning? Where and why do they meet?
I could say that they meet whenever Angrod or Aegnor make overtures to meet the "new neighbors". Also, technically, the House of Bëor eventually sets up shop in Ladros. Would this be before or after the Athrabeth? And who would make the call; would it be Andreth who would want to distance herself from Dorthonion and Aegnor? Would this be a venture by Bregolas and give him something to do?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
We could use Eöl’s interactions with the Dwarves this season (and maybe Maeglin’s too) in order to explain more about his relationship with Telchar and the forging of Anglachel and Anguirel.

It might be interesting to tell Eöl’s backstory in the form of stories that the Dwarves tell other people, just like Telchar’s story to Caranthir last season. Finrod, Curufin, and maybe even Maeglin could all hear a different part of Eöl’s backstory. Maybe Eöl wouldn’t be named in the stories until the last one, or maybe he wouldn’t even be named at all, so the audience would slowly come to realize that all the stories were about the same person, and that person was Eöl.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I think they set up shop in Ladros when they move to Dorthonion. The move to Dorthonion is our opportunity to introduce Ladros.
I recognize that the lake that plays a role in their love story is not there, but either they are visiting, or we make it a different lake.

I think that a love-at-first-sight scenario is almost necessary. We've seen Andreth and Finrod working together with mutual respect, and we've seen her passion and drive devoted to doing the best for her people. I don't think it would be so easy to repeat the working-alongside-as-colleagues scenario and have it develop into a romance. Besides, it could catch them both by surprise if it's a fairly instantaneous thing.

So, I suggest that when Andreth first visits Dorthonion, and is 'scouting out' a location for a home for her people, Aegnor is her guide, showing her around the place, and during that trip, they fall in love with one another. There will have to be something about Ladros that makes her pick that location, so if Aegnor warns her against it because it is too close to the front lines, that could work. I'm not suggesting that Andreth has to go on this trip alone - all of her people could be in Dorthonion, living in a sort of temporary tent city, and she's scouting out a location for their permanent settlement along with some others among her people (her brother who isn't Barahir and may be Bregor could be along, for instance). But that gives both Aegnor and Andreth something to be doing and we can 'showcase' Dorthonion before we destroy it.

Keep in mind that we will likely have one episode in which they: meet, fall in love, develop a mutual romantic relationship, and then abruptly call it off and never see one another again. So, it's not like we have time for a slow build here. It is imperative that Andreth decide to move all of her people from Nargothrond to Dorthonion without having met Aegnor. Otherwise, it makes it look like she did all that so she can be closer to the cute elf, which is not what we want her story to be about.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I think they set up shop in Ladros when they move to Dorthonion. The move to Dorthonion is our opportunity to introduce Ladros.
I recognize that the lake that plays a role in their love story is not there, but either they are visiting, or we make it a different lake.

I think that a love-at-first-sight scenario is almost necessary. We've seen Andreth and Finrod working together with mutual respect, and we've seen her passion and drive devoted to doing the best for her people. I don't think it would be so easy to repeat the working-alongside-as-colleagues scenario and have it develop into a romance. Besides, it could catch them both by surprise if it's a fairly instantaneous thing.

So, I suggest that when Andreth first visits Dorthonion, and is 'scouting out' a location for a home for her people, Aegnor is her guide, showing her around the place, and during that trip, they fall in love with one another. There will have to be something about Ladros that makes her pick that location, so if Aegnor warns her against it because it is too close to the front lines, that could work. I'm not suggesting that Andreth has to go on this trip alone - all of her people could be in Dorthonion, living in a sort of temporary tent city, and she's scouting out a location for their permanent settlement along with some others among her people (her brother who isn't Barahir and may be Bregor could be along, for instance). But that gives both Aegnor and Andreth something to be doing and we can 'showcase' Dorthonion before we destroy it.

Keep in mind that we will likely have one episode in which they: meet, fall in love, develop a mutual romantic relationship, and then abruptly call it off and never see one another again. So, it's not like we have time for a slow build here. It is imperative that Andreth decide to move all of her people from Nargothrond to Dorthonion without having met Aegnor. Otherwise, it makes it look like she did all that so she can be closer to the cute elf, which is not what we want her story to be about.

Let's also not forget that we have set up a dynamic where Andreth is opposed to the idea of humans and Elves living together. It isn't going to be a great look to her people if she dragged them out of comfort and safety, then considered marrying into Elvish nobility. On the flip side, this could be a factor in why they don't do that.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Let's also not forget that we have set up a dynamic where Andreth is opposed to the idea of humans and Elves living together. It isn't going to be a great look to her people if she dragged them out of comfort and safety, then considered marrying into Elvish nobility. On the flip side, this could be a factor in why they don't do that.
So why would they go to Dorthonion, where there’s even more Elves?

If it’s a mutual breaking things off between Andreth and Aegnor, why is Andreth so bitter about it on her end later on?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The last time the audience saw Eöl, he was storming out of the Council at Cuiviénen, up in arms over the decision to go to Valinor. He was very much distrustful of the entire Valinor impulse. And...that was only a couple of episodes into Season 2. So, definitely not something anyone can be expected to remember here in Season 5. And, sure, the 'Previously, on Silm Film' recap at the beginning of the episode can remind the audience of that, along with the time Thingol and Melian spent there, but...we do need to start almost from scratch here.

The only time Eöl even came up in the interim was in the conversation with Telchar.

So, we still have to manage to tell the whole story about how he found the meteor that formed the crater lake that is now Lake Helevorn, and how he fashioned two swords, one of which he wears, but the other is now in the armory of Thingol who (from his viewpoint) demanded it as payment for residence in Nan Elmoth.

I think that we want very little to come out before Aredhel meets Eöl. She is going to judge him on what *he* tells her, first. Throughout the season, if we learn more about him from other sources (and Aredhel learns more about him first hand), his true nature can come out. But I think it should be plausible that he's charming and hard-done-by when she meets him, and only later does 'the rest of the story' come out. I do think it's a great idea to use the dwarves to reveal more about him.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The last time the audience saw Eöl, he was storming out of the Council at Cuiviénen, up in arms over the decision to go to Valinor. He was very much distrustful of the entire Valinor impulse. And...that was only a couple of episodes into Season 2. So, definitely not something anyone can be expected to remember here in Season 5. And, sure, the 'Previously, on Silm Film' recap at the beginning of the episode can remind the audience of that, along with the time Thingol and Melian spent there, but...we do need to start almost from scratch here.

The only time Eöl even came up in the interim was in the conversation with Telchar.

So, we still have to manage to tell the whole story about how he found the meteor that formed the crater lake that is now Lake Helevorn, and how he fashioned two swords, one of which he wears, but the other is now in the armory of Thingol who (from his viewpoint) demanded it as payment for residence in Nan Elmoth.

I think that we want very little to come out before Aredhel meets Eöl. She is going to judge him on what *he* tells her, first. Throughout the season, if we learn more about him from other sources (and Aredhel learns more about him first hand), his true nature can come out. But I think it should be plausible that he's charming and hard-done-by when she meets him, and only later does 'the rest of the story' come out. I do think it's a great idea to use the dwarves to reveal more about him.
Weren't we working on something similar last year? (will have to sort through the Sessions to figure out).

Also, looking at the Gantt chart, how many episodes do we want the Dagor Bragollach to take up? If we have Aredhel's death in Episode 11, is that enough time to develop Maeglin carving his own niche in Gondolin and show his unnatural attraction to Idril?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I imagine the Maeglin-Idril storyline will come into play while Hurin and Huor are visiting Gondolin at the beginning of Season 7. We want the Dagor Bragollach to take up Episodes 12 and 13. I don't know that Aredhel's death need be as late as Episode 11, but it could be.

We certainly talked about Eöl last season; none of that content made it into Season 4, though.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I imagine the Maeglin-Idril storyline will come into play while Hurin and Huor are visiting Gondolin at the beginning of Season 7. We want the Dagor Bragollach to take up Episodes 12 and 13. I don't know that Aredhel's death need be as late as Episode 11, but it could be.

We certainly talked about Eöl last season; none of that content made it into Season 4, though.
Would it be time to revisit some of those concepts?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
To update that:

1) Leaves Great Debate and becomes a lone Avari elf. Takes an interest in astronomy while wandering Middle Earth under the stars. (Season 2, Epiosde 3: The Great Debate)​
2) Meets and befriends Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, learning metalworking from them. Recall that our Nandor don't have metalworking technology at all, so this is a very un-Avari interest for him to have - definitely sounds like something he'd get from the dwarves. Develops a rapport with Telchar of Nogrod, who was the armorer of Doriath and later makes the Dragon-helm for the King of Belegost. In Season 4, Telchar comments on how 'wrong' his swords are in a conversation with Fëanoreans, though the audience doesn't make the connection between Telchar's story and the elf from early Season 2.​
3) Sees meteor fall in what will later become Lake Helevorn. Goes to investigate and finds meteoric iron. Learns to use this to make his black swords and/or galvorn. (This back story has not yet been shown or alluded to in any way)​
4) While exploring Beleriand (in search of more raw materials?) comes across Nan Elmoth and recognizes its innate magic, leftover from Melian's proto-girdle. Becomes enamored with the place and wishes to make it his home. (Unshown)​
5) Petitions Thingol for permission to live in Nan Elmoth, and grudgingly parts with the sword as payment. (Unshown)​
6) At some point, the Sun rises. And he grumbles about his new Noldor neighbors when they arrive. *They* just took the land and didn't pay Thingol at all! (Sounds like this will be a real-time bit of dialogue in Season 5.)​


So, it looks like we will need to find a way to incorporate items #3-#6 into our story this season. Some things to consider:

Is it important for the audience to find out all of these things? If so, in what order should they be revealed? Is there some other aspect of his backstory that needs to be brought up?​
Does Eöl tell these stories himself? If so, who is his audience and what is his motivation? Is he telling Aredhel his background to gain sympathy from her? Is he telling Maeglin so that his son knows his heritage? Does he tell different versions to Aredhel and Maeglin?​
Do others tell these stories about Eöl? If so, what is their motivation? Are they warning others off from the 'dark' elf? Are they explaining their own issues with him? Or do they support him, and are defending why he is the way he is? ('Others' could include dwarves or elves of Doriath or Fëanorean neighbors or even Men.)​
Do we show these events in flashback? If so, how does that work? Very brief scene flashed up during voice-over dialogue? A 'memory' playing out when a character introduces the story? Or are these strictly verbal recountings with no visual component?​



I do think it important that the audience get to know Eöl how and when Aredhel does. They should have as much information as she does, and there should be enough ambiguity that her giving him the benefit of the doubt doesn't appear overly stupid. So, the stories he tells her should focus on his resourcefulness at first - how he found the meteor, or how he made Nan Elmoth his home. And when he does talk about his grudges, his bitterness shouldn't be so obvious, but he should manage to present it in such a way that he very clearly is the wronged party, so he's fishing for sympathy, not painting himself as anti-social. Others can talk more harshly about him, but we should only hear their voices after Maeglin is born, when Aredhel is starting to realize that not everything Eöl has told her is fully honest.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Eol could tell these stories in a way that would not be fine-tuned to gain sympathy. When told from his perspective, the stories can be already perfectly sympathetic (the "wrongness" of his two swords would not seem so to him) without any attempt at deliberate message control. Other than the wrong swords, and a generally... difficult attitude, he's never really done anything wrong so far. He's just a loner, Dottie. A rebel.

#1, #2, #3, even #4 from above would all speak to Aredhel. These are what make her like him.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
#5 could be told as late as The Children of Hurin, since the sword’s history is detailed at that point when Beleg chooses a sword.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
While we should definitely reference the sword's history at that point, I think it's important to tell that story while Eöl is alive. Because his dislike of and passive feud with the Noldor is based very significantly on the fact that he had to pay for his land and they did not. He begrudges Thingol's price for Nan Elmoth.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
While we should definitely reference the sword's history at that point, I think it's important to tell that story while Eöl is alive. Because his dislike of and passive feud with the Noldor is based very significantly on the fact that he had to pay for his land and they did not. He begrudges Thingol's price for Nan Elmoth.
So would this be one of the later things he tells Aredhel, where his bitterness really shows through?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
So, one way to tell his story that might be worth considering would be to have him telling his story to Aredhel, putting the most innocent possible spin on it, while we see what actually took place. The audience doesn't have to believe Eol to understand why Aredhel does.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
While we should definitely reference the sword's history at that point, I think it's important to tell that story while Eöl is alive. Because his dislike of and passive feud with the Noldor is based very significantly on the fact that he had to pay for his land and they did not. He begrudges Thingol's price for Nan Elmoth.
I was simply stating the latest point this could possibly be brought up.

Eol could tell these stories in a way that would not be fine-tuned to gain sympathy. When told from his perspective, the stories can be already perfectly sympathetic (the "wrongness" of his two swords would not seem so to him) without any attempt at deliberate message control. Other than the wrong swords, and a generally... difficult attitude, he's never really done anything wrong so far. He's just a loner, Dottie. A rebel.

#1, #2, #3, even #4 from above would all speak to Aredhel. These are what make her like him.
What is wrong about the swords? Melian senses a darkness about them when she’s in their presence. Does she sense what deeds will be wrought with that sword? And they seem to be alive as Anglachel blunts when Beleg is killed, the sword speaks (depends on if we want it to be in Turin’s head or an actual voice others could hear), and breaks when Turin uses it to take his own life
 
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