Session 6-01: Big Picture Questions

[Rob Harding]

Okay, so she resists the quest. That’s interesting but it comes a while into their interactions. We need to know why she would resist the quest or else it comes from nowhere.

As you say, she at one point considers not returning to Doriath. But we’ve already seen her stay in Doriath to help maintain its culture as an act of good in the world.

So she goes from believing remaining in her home is the right course to affect t the world to understanding helping other people’s snd uniting with them will bring change. Elves snd Men coning together bring a big theme anyway. And contrasts her father. But what is she leaving. You want to really show it as a kind of paradise she’s giving up but also plant seeds that leaving is the better thing.

As Beren becomes less hubristic snd learns to lean on her after being a survivalist relying on himself, she starts to rely on him and become more than just a member of her own people. By leaning into one another, that’s how they overcome the darkness of the world and inspire others later.

So you need a moment when it seems like they could separate snd turn back but don’t. You have a real long dark night of the soul moment when Beren is captured. Maybe Luthien is considering staying. Been went off on this crazy quest. He’s trying to rely on his own strength to escape. He realises he can’t. She heard he’s in trouble. Somehow we could have him call for her (mystical or perhaps speaks to a nightingale???) and she catches wind. He chooses her help snd she’s chooses to leave to him. Snd from that moment we know they are in this for the long haul and anything is possible

In that situation his hot headed passion, his desire for her, put him on this deadly quest and maybe she realises that is a problem for the first time. Maybe the thing she loves about this mortal isn’t a good thing. And her love for her people could be a thing he sees in her. She has a family she is loyal too, a thing he craves and recognises. She is a kindred spirit. But it seems she chooses them over her. End of an episode. Then they struggle apart, Beren is captured, Luthien suddenly finds Menegroth is no longer enough. And she chooses him and he chooses her.

I’m just trying to work out a way that this plot can only happen with these two people. You don’t want a plot that could just swap out the protagonists for another person and it still works

On the note of her being ‘merely mortal’ I think that dynamic should be flipped. Maybe Luthien fears he wants her because she is an eternal enchantress but really he loves her for what she is. So she is able to make that choice when she realises he was telling the truth. Bringing out the best in each other. Not sure how to visualise that realisation though, if you want to use that angle

 

[MithLuin]

For me this goes back to a storywriting principle of holding a question in mind when writing a story. Not the be all and end all but a guiding light to determine if story elements are contributing to the story or not. Not a yes or no question either. Or even a simple descriptive answer. A question about ‘to what degree’ and ‘to what purpose’ type of question. It ideally shouldn’t be a question that can be easily answered or that IS answered, but something to be explored and meditated on. It’s a port in the storm.*

For me, Beren and Luthien is about to what degree love might enough be enough to overcome evil.

To that end, it’s good to look at different kinds of love and different kinds of evil. And how they interact with one another and if one always does defeat the other
...
*you can call it the theme or focus

When asking about the 'theme' of the season, I think Tolkien was very clear about what question he wanted to explore in this story. The theme concerns what mortality and death means to immortal (or, rather, longeval) beings. He called his tale the Lay of Leithian....and 'leithian' means "release from bondage." Lúthien is celebrated as the only elf who 'died indeed' to that point. Her story is about transforming her immortal (well, for the duration of Arda) life into a mortal life where her soul leaves the circles of the world. So, she's not unlike the Little Mermaid, who recognizes that she can live for a very long time, but at the end of her days, will be just a speck of sea foam...but if she marries a mortal, she will gain an immortal soul. It's not an exact parallel, of course, but there are similar elements present in the Hans Christian Anderson story.

And I do think that love is an important element of this story, of course. Lúthien is good and beautiful and powerful, and she can sway almost anyone (seriously, she takes down Sauron, Morgoth, and Mandos, if you want to look at it that way). And yet...she's clearly not corrupted nor using her powers for devious purposes. There's a lot of rescuing going on in what she is doing. Her love for Beren is motivating her to do things she would not have done otherwise. So, she does not 'flex' her power for the fun of it, but rather in service to what she thinks important enough to use it for.

But also, being so breathtakingly beautiful, she evokes a pretty strong response in the people she interacts with. IF they are also good and loving people, their response to her is also love. Huan helps her because he loves her, and loves Beren (whom she tells him about). Huan betrays Celegorm, whom he has followed for ages, out of love for Lúthien. In other words - Huan's love of Lúthien reveals something of the goodness of Huan. Huan has not become 'corrupt' by following the Fëanoreans around, but if he had chosen loyalty to Celegorm over doing the right thing for the captive Lúthien...he would have been diminished a bit.

While Beren's interaction with Lúthien may not be 100% free of possessiveness or treating her as an object or disregarding her wishes, certainly he is much more governed by love than by lust. Whereas Thingol, who clearly does love his daughter, allows his possessiveness and pride to blind him as he makes a decision counter to what is good for her when he denies her love for Beren.

In short, Lúthien becomes a foil, and all other characters can react to her on a sliding scale between love and lust, and between selflessness and possessiveness, as well as between pride and humility. No one is 100% on the 'good' side of those scales (though Huan and Beren and Melian all slide pretty far to the left). And, naturally, Morgoth's reaction to her is radically far in the other direction. He wants to possess and use and destroy her - crushing her as you would tread on flower petals, ruining all that is good and beautiful about her. Other less extreme examples of corruption include Celegorm and Daeron, who both do have some form of love for her, but it is complicated, and gets tied up in other stuff.

 

[kanji_d]

If I may then condense it into one word, would it be appropriate to state the topic for exploration this season is mortality?

 

[MithLuin]

I mean, if we must condense it to one word, I am still going to go with leithian.

 

[kanji_d]

Fair enough, we have such a good word before us already.

 

[Odola]

When asking about the 'theme' of the season, I think Tolkien was very clear about what question he wanted to explore in this story. The theme concerns what mortality and death means to immortal (or, rather, longeval) beings. He called his tale the Lay of Leithian....and 'leithian' means "release from bondage." Lúthien is celebrated as the only elf who 'died indeed' to that point. Her story is about transforming her immortal (well, for the duration of Arda) life into a mortal life where her soul leaves the circles of the world. So, she's not unlike the Little Mermaid, who recognizes that she can live for a very long time, but at the end of her days, will be just a speck of sea foam...but if she marries a mortal, she will gain an immortal soul. It's not an exact parallel, of course, but there are similar elements present in the Hans Christian Anderson story.

And I do think that love is an important element of this story, of course. Lúthien is good and beautiful and powerful, and she can sway almost anyone (seriously, she takes down Sauron, Morgoth, and Mandos, if you want to look at it that way). And yet...she's clearly not corrupted nor using her powers for devious purposes. There's a lot of rescuing going on in what she is doing. Her love for Beren is motivating her to do things she would not have done otherwise. So, she does not 'flex' her power for the fun of it, but rather in service to what she thinks important enough to use it for.

But also, being so breathtakingly beautiful, she evokes a pretty strong response in the people she interacts with. IF they are also good and loving people, their response to her is also love. Huan helps her because he loves her, and loves Beren (whom she tells him about). Huan betrays Celegorm, whom he has followed for ages, out of love for Lúthien. In other words - Huan's love of Lúthien reveals something of the goodness of Huan. Huan has not become 'corrupt' by following the Fëanoreans around, but if he had chosen loyalty to Celegorm over doing the right thing for the captive Lúthien...he would have been diminished a bit.

While Beren's interaction with Lúthien may not be 100% free of possessiveness or treating her as an object or disregarding her wishes, certainly he is much more governed by love than by lust. Whereas Thingol, who clearly does love his daughter, allows his possessiveness and pride to blind him as he makes a decision counter to what is good for her when he denies her love for Beren.

In short, Lúthien becomes a foil, and all other characters can react to her on a sliding scale between love and lust, and between selflessness and possessiveness, as well as between pride and humility. No one is 100% on the 'good' side of those scales (though Huan and Beren and Melian all slide pretty far to the left). And, naturally, Morgoth's reaction to her is radically far in the other direction. He wants to possess and use and destroy her - crushing her as you would tread on flower petals, ruining all that is good and beautiful about her. Other less extreme examples of corruption include Celegorm and Daeron, who both do have some form of love for her, but it is complicated, and gets tied up in other stuff.

The Mermaid is exactly the story I thought of here. Because also like in the Mermaid Luthien gives up the thing that makes her special to Beren (being an "immortal maiden elven-wise") to be with him and as in the Mermaid she does risk losing his interest like the Prince in the Mermaid does when she becomes voiceless.

On the note of her being ‘merely mortal’ I think that dynamic should be flipped. Maybe Luthien fears he wants her because she is an eternal enchantress but really he loves her for what she is. So she is able to make that choice when she realises he was telling the truth. Bringing out the best in each other. Not sure how to visualise that realisation though, if you want to use that angle

This is problematic. The human default is not Luthien's default. "Eternal enchantress" is what Luthien is, and always has been - and she has been around for several millenia already. Why would she see and question herself for the standpoint of humanity if all she knows of it is one human for a short period of time? Being "eternal enchantress" is so self-evident to her so that she gives it up without realising somebody else might found exactly this about her the interesting and special point about her, because it is not at all special to her. Actually this kind of question I could imagine Finrod asking of Beren while they both are in Sauron's prison. Finrod has both the knowlegde of humans, th insterst in such matters and the wisedom necessary to ask such a question imho.

The question is also how good she will be to come to terms with the loss of the power she always took for granted and as such never really valued much, how she will reinvent herself when finding herself being dependant, vulnerable and week, when everything is a chore and tiresome, when she sees boredom and inpatience in her husband eyes looking at her instead of boundless admiration? At least she will know this to be a temporary state only - but what lies beyond is still uncertain und unclear for her also...

MithLuin The mortality angle is very interesting but not without dangers also. How do we avoid making Beren for Luthien just a "ticket to the Timeless Halls" - her mother's original homeland that her daughter - unlike other elves, but like the humans - has a longing for?

 

[Rob Harding]

Okay, I get that Luthien as a word snd name is vital but it’s not really something that we can check in terms of ‘does this scene move the bigger story forward’?

To what degree does….
How much can…
At what point does…

And you want to think of very human questions. Immortality is a big concept otherworldly concept that acts as our big fantasy backdrop. But it’s not the heart that audiences will connect to and keep watching each week to see how the question is answered.

Game of Thrones is all about whether a person can hold power snd still be good. Is the Iron Throne innately corrupting by virtue of it bring a seat of power. You want to follow characters you love vying for control but you know everything will go wrong, though you hope it won’t

Breaking Bad is about how much evil can a person do and still do it for love. Quickly we realise, it doesn’t come from a place of love.

It’s very hard to write a script or scene and not be able to think how it ties back to move that story forward. It also helps us answer the kinds of questions we’ve been asking

 

[Odola]

Okay, I get that Luthien as a word snd name is vital but it’s not really something that we can check in terms of ‘does this scene move the bigger story forward’?

Leithian do you mean? Release from bondage? For Luthien this is the release from the contrains of Doriath and an elvish princess life - which was limiting to her potential as a half-Ainu and her deepest longings which reached beyond Arda itself. For Beren from his "ghosts of the past". For the rest of ME from the conviction that Morgoth is beyond reach for them?

 

[Rob Harding]

Leithian do you mean? Release from bondage? For Luthien this is the release from the contrains of Doriath and an elvish princess life - which was limiting to her potential as a half-Ainur and her deepest longings which reached beyond arda itself. For Beren from his "ghosts of the past". For the rest of ME from the conviction that Morgoth is beyond reach for them?

Sorry I did. Sorry rushing this morning lol

I think both of those very central arcs for each of them and totally agree about overal ME perspective. So really there I think the ties for everything are a pull between seeking desire snd seeking truth. Sometimes they are one snd the same, sometimes not. Maybe not truth, maybe that’s the wrong word. But maybe there’s a dichotomy between pursuing desire and pursuing beauty perhaps? I think that’s getting closer

I definitely think the overall series very much looks at whether goodness can wholly destroy evil. And within that you get very morally grey people which makes it harder to know if they can stop dark forces which is great drama. I suppose thinking of whether desire or truth is the best thing to follow to overcome evil is interesting as both can take you one way or another

 

[Odola]

By the way, has Nimloth, Celeborn's niece and the future wife and queen of Dior, already made an appearance?

 

[MithLuin]

By the way, has Nimloth, Celeborn's niece and the future wife and queen of Dior, already made an appearance?

No, not yet. It is not entirely clear to me whether she will be one of the Sindar of Doriath or one of the Green Elves of Ossiriand in Silm Film. Celeborn's sister Galathil is in Ossiriand, and is one of the Green Elves. Celeborn himself was born at Cuivienen, so they were together before the Teleri began fracturing during the journey West.

 

[kanji_d]

Nimloth is going to be far, far older than Dior it seems, unless we have her born this season... which I don't think we want, to me it makes more sense to have her be an Elven adult by now. Would it be objectionable to make Nimloth Galathil's granddaughter instead of daughter? The term "niece" can still apply but it'll cut down the age difference, if that matters at all.

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, we will need to discuss the relationship between Celeborn and Nimloth; it's not decided yet, and Celeborn's family tree in Silm Film is likely not quite what Tolkien had determined.

 

[Octoburn]

This is completely unrelated to the thread, but it is "Big Picture" as it's relevant to next season as well as a couple of seasons down the line. Did we come to a firm decision about what to do about the two Gelmirs? I remember discussing it on the forums (as GelmirA was present in season 5) but dont recall it being mentioned at all on the show.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

This is completely unrelated to the thread, but it is "Big Picture" as it's relevant to next season as well as a couple of seasons down the line. Did we come to a firm decision about what to do about the two Gelmirs? I remember discussing it on the forums (as GelmirA was present in season 5) but dont recall it being mentioned at all on the show.

If we want Elrhun to survive past the Nirnaeth, we could have him as the Gelmir who comes to Nargothrond from Cirdan...

 

[Odola]

Nimloth is going to be far, far older than Dior it seems, unless we have her born this season... which I don't think we want, to me it makes more sense to have her be an Elven adult by now. Would it be objectionable to make Nimloth Galathil's granddaughter instead of daughter? The term "niece" can still apply but it'll cut down the age difference, if that matters at all.

That's completely o.k. as imho Dior ages faster that her - (and maybe słows down after the conception of Elwing. - reverse to what NoMe says happens to Arven after conception of Eldarion). How fast is not yet clear I think but has to be somewhat faster. And both Beren and Aragorn years are a fraction of that of their wives. Seems fitting, as such imho she should start to appear this season. What are her experiences that she later agrees to marry a mixed-blood like Dior? Is this rebellion against her mother?

 

[kanji_d]

I will admit, Dior of all the half-Elven (except perhaps Elwing) seems to me the most Elvish (as opposed to Mannish). The judgement of the Valar regarding the half-Elven has of course not come into play yet, so he doesn't make a choice one way or the other, and since he's killed it's rather unclear whether he's mortal. In my own opinion I do agree he ages faster than normal Elves, and is probably mortal. But (based on my cursory research) the only evidence we have of this is Cristopher's interpretation of a passage in the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion in The Lost Road. This occurs during the judgement of Eärendel by Manwë. The passage in question is as follows:

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them. (HME V QS "Conclusion" §9 p. 326)

Christopher's commentary on this passage reads:

It is to be observed that according to the judgement of Manwë Dior Thingol's Heir, son of Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother. (ibid. "Commentary on the Conclusion" pp. 334-335)

That seems a rather unfounded claim to me, especially since Dior was already dead by the time of the judgement. And by the word "Now" at the beginning it sounds like the judgement only came into effect once it was spoken, thus making it irrelevant in the determination of his fate. Certainly, if he were in Mandos, he would then be freed from the circles of the world, but there's no evidence one way or the other to show if he went to Mandos.

All that to say, I think it's plenty likely that Dior was Elvish more than he was Mannish. But feel free to argue against me! I'm perfectly fine portraying Dior as a more Mannish character.

 

[Odola]

I will admit, Dior of all the half-Elven (except perhaps Elwing) seems to me the most Elvish (as opposed to Mannish). The judgement of the Valar regarding the half-Elven has of course not come into play yet, so he doesn't make a choice one way or the other, and since he's killed it's rather unclear whether he's mortal. In my own opinion I do agree he ages faster than normal Elves, and is probably mortal. But (based on my cursory research) the only evidence we have of this is Cristopher's interpretation of a passage in the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion in The Lost Road. This occurs during the judgement of Eärendel by Manwë. The passage in question is as follows:


Christopher's commentary on this passage reads:


That seems a rather unfounded claim to me, especially since Dior was already dead by the time of the judgement. And by the word "Now" at the beginning it sounds like the judgement only came into effect once it was spoken, thus making it irrelevant in the determination of his fate. Certainly, if he were in Mandos, he would then be freed from the circles of the world, but there's no evidence one way or the other to show if he went to Mandos.

All that to say, I think it's plenty likely that Dior was Elvish more than he was Mannish. But feel free to argue against me! I'm perfectly fine portraying Dior as a more Mannish character.

Those citations confirm partly what I've always assumed. 1. Dior's being a mortal is independent of his mother's choice. 2. He should have been a mortal due to his father being one. He should be a heir of the House of Beor. 3. He chooses to count his descent from Thingol not Beren - a choice which the whole of the elvish community accepts.. 4. He marries an immortal elleth.

And Arwen - a mixed blood - becomes human to marry Aragorn - the reverse might be true for Dior when marrying Nimloth. As Dior is not merely cohabiting with Nimloth, it is a full elvish marriage he enters into - again the reverse of Arwen.

Imho making Dior mortal creates more problems for the role that he serves. Easier to let it ambivalent or unclear as the text does. He should be mortal given his descent but he behaves consequently as if he were not. And if we consider the Valar having an agenda here - they want their Ainu-bloodline established in both the kindreds of Eruhini and being limited to Dior being the forefather of both - them allowing this kind of ambivalence for him makes sense. They must allow for a way for him being also the forefather of the elvish Ainu-line, not only the mortal one.

As such Dior not being forced to make a choice during his life-time might be deliberate move by the Valar to allow his descendants not to be predetermined to choose either way.
I would assume he would be forced to make a choice when he arrives at Mandos.

- (In my own head-canon he simply refuses to make one - declaring "that he is what he is" and that "he will not choose between his one hand or the other- between his right eye or his left" as such become forever stuck in Mandos - neither entitled to reembodiment but refusing to leave Arda either. I would assume his sons to follow his father in their refusal to choose - forever stuck "in-between" refusing to be categorized one way or another - by their own volition. [this actually could be what prompts the Valar to let the Peredhil choose while they are yet alive].
- Or one could make them (Dior's sons) being rescued by Nienna (or Nessa) and turned into hobbits and left somewhere in Rhovanion among the commnities of "little people" living there - this would explain why hobbits live longer, and the rumours that the ancestors of Tooks took wives from among the faeries. But this would be too "mythological" for our story-telling style I assume, so it is easier to simply let them die of exposure.)

But I would assume Nimloth to be reembodied and living-in with Elwing in Elwing's tower in Valinor in a permanent widowhood. Seems fitting, as Elwing choose elfdom because of her mother.

 

[kanji_d]

Those citations confirm partly what I've always assumed. 1. Dior's being a mortal is independent of his mother's choice. 2. He should have been a mortal due to his father being one. He should be a heir of the House of Beor. 3. He chooses to count his descent from Thingol not Beren - a choice which the whole of the elvish community accepts.. 4. He marries an immortal elleth.

And Arwen - a mixed blood - becomes human to marry Aragorn - the reverse might be true for Dior when marrying Nimloth. As Dior is not merely cohabiting with Nimloth, it is a full elvish marriage he enters into - again the reverse of Arwen.

Imho making Dior mortal creates more problems for the role that he serves. Easier to let it ambivalent or unclear as the text does. He should be mortal given his descent but he behaves consequently as if he were not. And if we consider the Valar having an agenda here - they want their Ainu-bloodline established in both the kindreds of Eruhini and being limited to Dior being the forefather of both - them allowing this kind of ambivalence for him makes sense. They must allow for a way for him being also the forefather of the elvish Ainu-line, not only the mortal one.

As such Dior not being forced to make a choice during his life-time might be deliberate move by the Valar to allow his descendants not to be predetermined to choose either way.
I would assume he would be forced to make a choice when he arrives at Mandos.

- (In my own head-canon he simply refuses to make one - declaring "that he is what he is" and that "he will not choose between his one hand or the other- between his right eye or his left" as such become forever stuck in Mandos - neither entitled to reembodiment but refusing to leave Arda either. I would assume his sons to follow his father in their refusal to choose - forever stuck "in-between" refusing to be categorized one way or another - by their own volition. [this actually could be what prompts the Valar to let the Peredhil choose while they are yet alive].
- Or one could make them (Dior's sons) being rescued by Nienna (or Nessa) and turned into hobbits and left somewhere in Rhovanion among the commnities of "little people" living there - this would explain why hobbits live longer, and the rumours that the ancestors of Tooks took wives from among the faeries. But this would be too "mythological" for our story-telling style I assume, so it is easier to simply let them die of exposure.)

But I would assume Nimloth to be reembodied and living-in with Elwing in Elwing's tower in Valinor in a permanent widowhood. Seems fitting, as Elwing choose elfdom because of her mother.

I think Dior refusing to make a choice is an excellent way to handle that particular conundrum.

 

[Mithrim]

I posted this in the Villain Storylines thread, but maybe it would be better here.
I was reading the Lay of Leithian, and was struck by all the references to ghosts, shades, etc. Sauron tricks Gorlim into believing that his wife is still alive with a "wraith". Gorlim as a ghost warns Beren about his own betrayal and the upcoming attack on Barahir's camp (Not sure if we should show this. It doesn't really align with the souls of men having no choice but move on to Mandos and then elsewhere. Unless it is a situation like the Army of the Dead with a vow involved.). Sauron is called the Necromancer, and is mentioned to hold a host of phantoms with glamoury. It is explained in Morgoth's Ring, that Sauron can control the souls of elves that reject the call of Mandos.
At the start of the season, being the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach and then the battle of Tol Sirion, there should be a few Noldor that have been killed that want to stay in Beleriand.
Maybe the show makes it a mystery how and why some elves come back, but then we show the whole process with Luthien's death so the audience can put two and two together.
Probably this has already been shown in the earlier seasons, but if it hasn't this is a good opportunity to explore the concept especially if the Halls of Mandos is in this season.