Session 6-05: Glaurung and Nargothrond

That would work, but the bigger question is when would this happen? The longer we wait to do it, the stranger it seems that the Feanoreans have not done anything about his presence yet. The sooner we do it, the more we signal to the audience that Glaurung will play a role in the season arc.

One way to solve this would be to actually tell a story in East Beleriand with Glaurung as the antagonist. This of course flies in the face of Prof. Olsen's desire to minimize Glaurung's appearances in the season, but I imagine he could be convinced if a cool story presented itself.
I say after Sauron is beaten or after the Silmaril is taken; Morgoth would bring back something to defend Angband at the least and since he's down most of his force of werewolves (killed by Beren and Huan and Carcharoth uncontrollable and on the rampage), Morgoth wants another beast weapon in bulk: dragons.
 
Interesting take, to portray the recall of the Dragon as part of Morgoth's fear response after Lúthien's visit. He still has his balrogs, but I agree that portraying Glaurung as his new gatekeeper sends a message that Morgoth isn't going to let that happen again.
 
Interesting take, to portray the recall of the Dragon as part of Morgoth's fear response after Lúthien's visit. He still has his balrogs, but I agree that portraying Glaurung as his new gatekeeper sends a message that Morgoth isn't going to let that happen again.
Maybe increase his mind powers as a defense mechanism so he can't really be hypnotized asleep (as well as breeding)?
 
Maybe increase his mind powers as a defense mechanism so he can't really be hypnotized asleep (as well as breeding)?
Presumably we used the mind powers during the Dagor Bragollach to set them up for Nienor? What did he do with them? It could work out to have them get heightened during this time. I do like the idea of recalling him as gatekeeper.

Going off of this, we could also have him around in the season using his mind powers as another way Morgoth is turning Elf against Elf. Glaurung could take some elf or another and erase their memories, letting them wander back. With the existing distrust caused by the catch-and-release program it could drive a further wedge (and he could still do this from the comfort of Chateau Glaurung)
 
Presumably we used the mind powers during the Dagor Bragollach to set them up for Nienor? What did he do with them? It could work out to have them get heightened during this time. I do like the idea of recalling him as gatekeeper.

Going off of this, we could also have him around in the season using his mind powers as another way Morgoth is turning Elf against Elf. Glaurung could take some elf or another and erase their memories, letting them wander back. With the existing distrust caused by the catch-and-release program it could drive a further wedge (and he could still do this from the comfort of Chateau Glaurung)
I thought this was Sauron's purview.
 
I say after Sauron is beaten or after the Silmaril is taken; Morgoth would bring back something to defend Angband at the least and since he's down most of his force of werewolves (killed by Beren and Huan and Carcharoth uncontrollable and on the rampage), Morgoth wants another beast weapon in bulk: dragons.

So my question here is: why does Maedhros wait so long to do something about the dragon camped out behind his lines.
 
So my question here is: why does Maedhros wait so long to do something about the dragon camped out behind his lines.
Well, there isn't much they can do, is there? Glaurung was only beaten back as a relative stripling, and nobody is really able to get close unless you're a dwarf or if you attack him from below and he can't see it, e.g. Túrin.
 
Well, there isn't much they can do, is there? Glaurung was only beaten back as a relative stripling, and nobody is really able to get close unless you're a dwarf or if you attack him from below and he can't see it, e.g. Túrin.

So they do nothing? Hope that nothing bad happens?
 
Presumably we used the mind powers during the Dagor Bragollach to set them up for Nienor? What did he do with them? It could work out to have them get heightened during this time. I do like the idea of recalling him as gatekeeper.

When young Glaurung first appeared in the Season 4 finale, he is able to use hypnosis to hold an elf in place if the elf makes eye contact. And then blast said elf with fire. We do not have the Dragon speak during this initial encounter, so it's not a direct parallel to the Túrin and Nienor situations, but does set up Glaurung's mental ability from the beginning.

In the interaction with Caranthir in Season 5, there is some (limited) dialogue.

So at this point, we have definitely established that it is dangerous to look a dragon in the eye. But we have time to develop the dragon's personality further when we get to the sack of Nargothrond.

So my question here is: why does Maedhros wait so long to do something about the dragon camped out behind his lines.

Well, first things first - how long does he wait? The Siege lasted hundreds of years. He has been 'waiting' nearly 400 years since the Dagor Aglareb to attack Angband, and considered holding the course the only option.

This season takes place over at most 15 years, and most of it takes place 5-7 years after the battle. So, Maedhros could spend 5-10 years retaking Maglor's Gap and the Pass of Aglon and rebuilding Himring...and the Dragon could still be on his to do list at the end of the season. There's no need to assume that Maedhros is dawdling if we leave the Dragon situation unresolved until Season 7...particularly if we see very little of Maedhros or East Beleriand in Season 6. Season 7 is going to feature a lot of Maedhros' plans, so we will learn what he's doing about Keep Helevorn then.

And, sure, it's possible that Morgoth would recall Glaurung before Maedhros acts to drive him out.

I agree that we need to figure this out now, so we know what, if anything, we ought to be setting up this season. For instance, Ossiriand being considered a safe and peaceful place for Beren and Luthien to settle down implies that Maedhros is once again defending East Beleriand effectively. Having nothing but woods between a dragon in Keep Helevorn and Ossiriand is probably not the situation we are going for (even if Glaurung would have little interest in attacking the Green Elves).
 
Well, first things first - how long does he wait? The Siege lasted hundreds of years. He has been 'waiting' nearly 400 years since the Dagor Aglareb to attack Angband, and considered holding the course the only option.

I mean, that's not really the same thing, but we can get into that tomorrow night... 😉
 
Random stuff Maedhros (and other Feanorians) could be doing in order to fight Glaurung. I'm not sure how feasible some of these ideas would be to implement if there are orcs still roaming around, but at the least Maedhros could just be in planning stages.
Gathering up a treasure heap in hopes of luring Glaurung out of Keep Helevorn with it.
Digging hidden pits with boulders nearby ready to be thrown down to bury Glaurung if he does fall in one. Pits with spears or sharpened stakes at the bottom.
Hiding a giant net in the polluted lake waters of Helevorn so if Glaurung does go in there he could get tangled up and the elves can kill him .
Elves aren't technologically minded (neither am I!), but what about the dwarves? Is there any war machinery, that they can invent to help in the fight against Glaurung? Traps?
Tunneling underneath the Keep to collapse the walls on top of the dragon?
Forging armor and weapons that withstand fire?
Dwarf masks here are a given, but is there anything else?
Just throwing out some ideas.

Also, what is going to happen to the cursed gold in Keep Helevorn? Are we going to set it up for a future storyline? Or would Glaurung melt or bury it, so that nobody else gets a hold on it when he does leave?
 
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The reason for his recall could simply be that now is the time to make some baby dragons, and they need the father of dragons for that. Granted, it took HUNDREDS of YEARS for him to reach full grown status, and the Nirnaeth is less than two decades away. So, uhhh, fast growing dragons??

Well, we need to prepare for the next gen dragons, i.e. the winged ones. Perhaps even if Glaurung isn't needed to father offspring for the Nirnaeth; that could have happened off-screen, then the reveal there's more of them would be more shocking. But then we might need to be able to justify significantly more dragons having been engineered possibly before Glaurung gets Gurthanged, and pulling the same trick again won't work. And being part of the R&D for new types of dragons is a bit more of a time investment that begetting a bunch more (however that happens!)

Regarding Thingol, I recently watched Encanto, and the way it handles family conflict and complex motivations that unfold over the course of the story is rather stunning. Everyone ultimately has good intentions and good reasons for what they do, despite appearances. I think it might be worth thinking about a similar approach with Thingol.

Again with Glaurung and the plague that hit Hithlum, given that we know that Glaurung can 'foul' the pools of Ivrin, I wonder if he could be a source of water-borne disease (cf the famous Broad Street cholera outbreak, which people at the time thought was caused by a "miasma"), but it could be put in a way that's not so clinical, and couched in Tolkienian terms.

As far as Dior goes, the choice to me seems: give up a quiet life in Ossiriand far from the Front to a) live with the Men and try to claim some kind of lordship ("last of a ragged line, etc"), and maybe try to have some impact, or b) go and be king of the Sindar in Doriath. The latter has a much better chance of achieving something meaningful, even if ultimately it really doesn't. And we are leaving out succession planning and also suggestions of Melian, here. It could be that Thingol appoints Dior his heir by fiat, in the admittedly unlikely case that he dies in battle, or if not heir outright, as a kind of back-up king (not a great suggestion, sounds bad when I say it). Or Melian could, just before she leaves, strongly suggest that Dior come, when Thingol dies, as a last act to look after Doriath and maintain some continuity in leadership for the sake of the people.
 
Well, we need to prepare for the next gen dragons, i.e. the winged ones. Perhaps even if Glaurung isn't needed to father offspring for the Nirnaeth; that could have happened off-screen, then the reveal there's more of them would be more shocking. But then we might need to be able to justify significantly more dragons having been engineered possibly before Glaurung gets Gurthanged, and pulling the same trick again won't work. And being part of the R&D for new types of dragons is a bit more of a time investment that begetting a bunch more (however that happens!)

A winged dragon lady (or several of those) having a flirty witty discussion with a surprised Glaurung would be quite cinematic if done right imho. The action itself needs not to be shown.

Again with Glaurung and the plague that hit Hithlum, given that we know that Glaurung can 'foul' the pools of Ivrin, I wonder if he could be a source of water-borne disease (cf the famous Broad Street cholera outbreak, which people at the time thought was caused by a "miasma"), but it could be put in a way that's not so clinical, and couched in Tolkienian terms.

Imho convincing.

As far as Dior goes, the choice to me seems: give up a quiet life in Ossiriand far from the Front to a) live with the Men and try to claim some kind of lordship ("last of a ragged line, etc"), and maybe try to have some impact, or b) go and be king of the Sindar in Doriath. The latter has a much better chance of achieving something meaningful, even if ultimately it really doesn't. And we are leaving out succession planning and also suggestions of Melian, here. It could be that Thingol appoints Dior his heir by fiat, in the admittedly unlikely case that he dies in battle, or if not heir outright, as a kind of back-up king (not a great suggestion, sounds bad when I say it). Or Melian could, just before she leaves, strongly suggest that Dior come, when Thingol dies, as a last act to look after Doriath and maintain some continuity in leadership for the sake of the people.
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We will have later Tuor becoming the lord of human refugees after having fled Gondolin also just on the basis on his descent, also after several decades of absence and with no problems - and nobody of those humans ever saw him before or heard of him as he was born after his father's death and among the elves and his only contact with humans before was as a slave to the Easterlings for three years as a teen.

What is the real difference between a
"Hi, I am Tuor son of Huor, my mother was pregnant when she left, you do remember? Who will follow me?"
and a
"Hi, I am Dior son of Beren, yes, that Beren son of Barahir you heard of cutting the stone from Morgoth's own crown. He cannot come - due to circumstances - but he taught me everything he knows. Who will follow me?" ?

A mortal is very unpractical as an elven king. He and his successors will die too soon to implement any sensible elvish policy, leaving his people heart-broken again and again - having also to witness the dispair and fading of their mourning elvish widow queens.

Dior being choosen as Thingol's successor cannot be Melian's idea, she must be aware of Dior dooming himself with it, he dies before his 40s as a result after just 3 years of reign - not in 80-100s that could be assumed, or even more, if the Duneadain rate is to be applied to him.
No way she would advice such a fate to him and his sons. (If read this way it was Thingol unwilligness to "let" Dior "leave" - to go where he belonged (among humans) or even just stay neutral and letting him stay at his waterfall in the Blue Montains that doomed Dior and his family).

Dior becoming Thingol's heir makes only sense if
1) Thingol's plans to sail after Luthien's second death - knowing now how bad he took the first one
2) He wants to cut of Dior and his sons form their human line and in his hybris to claim them for himself - in naming them after himself - "Elu" seeking to override their mortality by his own claim - and as an unintended result dooming them to die much faster than they otherwise would - as he was effectively if unwittingly trying to circumvent the rules of mortality approved by Eru himself as the fate of fallen mortals - and such a challenge to the rules cannot go "unpunished".

Note that neither Tuor nor Earendil - despite being Turgon's officially declared heirs and while actually ruling over elves (and men) - never claimed kingship over the elves - maybe understanding that such a challenge to their mortal human fate would actually shorten their lives as it seemed to have shortened Dior's and his sons. As an irony both of them a reported to have been counted among elves after that for other reasons - maybe partially also as a response to their self-restainment here. Elwing - the only one of Dior's children not named after Elu (- but just after the startlight on the spray of the above mentioned waterfall - maybe after Melian having advised Nimloth not to let her be named after Elu)- seemingly not claimed by him - survived also and she (Elwing) chose an elvish fate out of love for her elvish mother Nimloth - now eternally widowed when reembodied. But they did it "by the rules" - not claiming it but being granted it.

In a way Turgon - while not above reproach himself - is a foil to Thingol - both their kingdoms do fall - but far as dealing with a human son-in-laws is concerned Turgon clearly wins the competition.

Thingol's kin Ororpher or even Celeborn were much better suited candidates to succeed Thingol for the interest of Doriath as a kingdom than Dior was and turned out to be.
 
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A winged dragon lady (or several of those) having a flirty witty discussion with a surprised Glaurung would be quite cinematic if done right imho. The action itself needs not to be shown.



Imho convincing.

[

We will have later Tuor becoming the lord of human refugees after having fled Gondolin also just on the basis on his descent, also after several decades of absence and with no problems - and nobody of those humans ever saw him before or heard of him as he was born after his father's death and among the elves and his only contact with humans before was as a slave to the Easterlings for three years as a teen.

What is the real difference between a
"Hi, I am Tuor son of Huor, my mother was pregnant when she left, you do remember? Who will follow me?"
and a
"Hi, I am Dior son of Beren, yes, that Beren son of Barahir you heard of cutting the stone from Morgoth's own crown. He cannot come - due to circumstances - but he taught me everything he knows. Who will follow me?" ?

A mortal is very unpractical as an elven king. He and his successors will die too soon to implement any sensible elvish policy, leaving his people heart-broken again and again - having also to witness the dispair and fading of their mourning elvish widow queens.

Dior being choosen as Thingol's successor cannot be Melian's idea, she must be aware of Dior dooming himself with it, he dies before his 40s as a result after just 3 years of reign - not in 80-100s that could be assumed, or even more, if the Duneadain rate is to be applied to him.
No way she would advice such a fate to him and his sons. (If read this way it was Thingol unwilligness to "let" Dior "leave" - to go where he belonged (among humans) or even just stay neutral and letting him stay at his waterfall in the Blue Montains that doomed Dior and his family).

Dior becoming Thingol's heir makes only sense if
1) Thingol's plans to sail after Luthien's second death - knowing now how bad he took the first one
2) He wants to cut of Dior and his sons form their human line and in his hybris to claim them for himself - in naming them after himself - "Elu" seeking to override their mortality by his own claim - and as an unintended result dooming them to die much faster than they otherwise would - as he was effectively if unwittingly trying to circumvent the rules of mortality approved by Eru himself as the fate of fallen mortals - and such a challenge to the rules cannot go "unpunished".

Note that neither Tuor nor Earendil - despite being Turgon's officially declared heirs and while actually ruling over elves (and men) - never claimed kingship over the elves - maybe understanding that such a challenge to their mortal human fate would actually shorten their lives as it seemed to have shortened Dior's and his sons. As an irony both of them a reported to have been counted among elves after that for other reasons - maybe partially also as a response to their self-restainment here. Elwing - the only one of Dior's children not named after Elu (- but just after the startlight on the spray of the above mentioned waterfall - maybe after Melian having advised Nimloth not to let her be named after Elu)- seemingly not claimed by him - survived also and she (Elwing) chose an elvish fate out of love for her elvish mother Nimloth - now eternally widowed when reembodied. But they did it "by the rules" - not claiming it but being granted it.

In a way Turgon - while not above reproach himself - is a foil to Thingol - both their kingdoms do fall - but far as dealing with a human son-in-laws is concerned Turgon clearly wins the competition.

Thingol's kin Ororpher or even Celeborn were much better suited candidates to succeed Thingol for the interest of Doriath as a kingdom than Dior was and turned out to be.

I'm sure we will find a way to make it all work when we get there.
 
I'm referring to the discussion of Tuor and Dior.
Well, taking out Thingol's only good moment during Beren and Luthien has made us scrambling for reasons as to why Dior would want to take the throne of Doriath and why the Sindarin would allow him to be King. No real legacy of goodness, lore, strength of arms.
 
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