Session 6-05: Glaurung and Nargothrond

[MithLuin]

Session 6:05 will be held on Thursday February 10th, 2022 at 10 PM Eastern Time

The session will begin with a discussion of Glaurung. The goal is to establish how Glaurung gets from Keep Helevorn back to Angband prior to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and then to figure out what, if anything, needs to happen in Season 6 to tell that story. The goal is to save Glaurung screentime until Season 7, but at the same time, we need to know ourselves what is happening with him.

And then we need to address the situation in Nargothrond. There are significant politics involved, so figuring out how and when and why each step plays out will take some careful attention. How does the usurpation go down at Nargothrond? What are Celegorm and Curufin doing there, and what happens between them and Orodreth that leads to Finrod being abandoned to his fate? Also, recall that Gil-galad's departure for Círdan's camp happens at this time, presumably because his life is threatened by the political situation.

Other questions to address: What is Thingol doing while his daughter is out and about? We've panned the idea of Boldog attacking, so...does he just sit home and patiently await her return, or...?

And what are the dwarves up to? We need a Nauglamir storyline to happen early this season. Finrod showing up with a fancy necklace unexplained could have happened at any time. Why does the Nauglamir get crafted now, and how does Nogrod enter the story more fully? (We saw Nogrod in Season 5, when Eöl and Maeglin visited, but to that point, they have had very limited interactions with the Elves of Beleriand, unlike the Dwarves of Belegost.)

 

[Ange1e4e5]

My suggestion to what Glaurung is doing is that after Sauron is beaten, Morgoth summons Glaurung back to Angband from Keep Helevorn, but Glaurung is too late to stop Beren and Lúthien from stealing the Silmaril. Of course this depends on how fast Glaurung moves.

 

[Odola]

Other questions to address: What is Thingol doing while his daughter is out and about? We've panned the idea of Boldog attacking, so...does he just sit home and patiently await her return, or...?

If we want Thingol to be as much a jerk as only possible - which has been implied in the last session - we might have him angry with Melian not taking his side and considering her as such partially to blame for Luthien's disobedience, declaring that Luthien will come back sorry sooner or later and in the meantime he does not want to hear her name spoken in his presence. He would wander his forest about full of himself and have discussion about Sindar and Silvan ways being the only correct way to do anything, distancing himself from Melian and the Valar and giving rise to those isolationistic ideas which make Oropher & co. later go East and native among the Silvan elves.

The only question in such a constellation would be - why Dior would later ever prefer to continue this legacy above the one of his own father's house then? And why it is important for Elrond to be Thingol's heir (repairent), if Thingol's legacy is just pure jerkdom?

The only way this could work imho were if Beren would have failed to have a satisfying relationship with Luthien after their return from Mandos and her demotion to a mere mortal and Dior being witness to Luthien's sorrow and in contempt for his own human descent - but I do not think we want to go this route?

The point I am trying to make is: if Dior (a presumably reasonable being) finds it worthwhile to continue Thingol's legacy, then there must be something in it worth of continuation.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

If we want Thingol to be as much a jerk as only possible - which has been implied in the last session - we might have him angry with Melian not taking his side and considering her as such partially to blame for Luthien's disobedience, declaring that Luthien will come back sorry sooner or later and in the meantime he does not want to hear her name spoken in his presence. He would wander his forest about full of himself and have discussion about Sindar and Silvan ways being the only correct way to do anything, distancing himself from Melian and the Valar and giving rise to those isolationistic ideas which make Oropher & co. later go East and native among the Silvan elves.

The only question in such a constellation would be - why Dior would later ever prefer to continue this legacy above the one of his own father's house then? And why it is important for Elrond to be Thingol's heir (repairent), if Thingol's legacy is just pure jerkdom?

The only way this could work imho were if Beren would have failed to have a satisfying relationship with Luthien after their return from Mandos and her demotion to a mere mortal and Dior being witness to Luthien's sorrow and in contempt for his own human descent - but I do not think we want to go this route?

The point I am trying to make is: if Dior (a presumably reasonable being) finds it worthwhile to continue Thingol's legacy, then there must be something in it worth of continuation.

Exactly; why would Dior choose to continue Thingol's legacy over Beren's given Thingol's conduct?

 

[kanji_d]

If we can't find a solution I'll admit I'd be fine replacing the epithet "Eluchil" with something else. Not sure how others feel. Maybe he's considered the first of the half-Elven and takes the epithet Peredhil. But that's just a thought.

I think the big thing is that Thingol's jerkdom needs to be justifiable. He can't just be the racist father-in-law (okay, he is, but that's not the point here). But there's got to be a sense in which he's legitimately concerned for his daughter. That can lead him to incorrect conclusions, but we should be able to tell why he does everything. I know this is an incredibly basic storytelling idea but I think we really need to keep it in mind when it comes to Thingol.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

If we want Thingol to be as much a jerk as only possible - which has been implied in the last session - we might have him angry with Melian not taking his side and considering her as such partially to blame for Luthien's disobedience, declaring that Luthien will come back sorry sooner or later and in the meantime he does not want to hear her name spoken in his presence. He would wander his forest about full of himself and have discussion about Sindar and Silvan ways being the only correct way to do anything, distancing himself from Melian and the Valar and giving rise to those isolationistic ideas which make Oropher & co. later go East and native among the Silvan elves.

The only question in such a constellation would be - why Dior would later ever prefer to continue this legacy above the one of his own father's house then? And why it is important for Elrond to be Thingol's heir (repairent), if Thingol's legacy is just pure jerkdom?

The only way this could work imho were if Beren would have failed to have a satisfying relationship with Luthien after their return from Mandos and her demotion to a mere mortal and Dior being witness to Luthien's sorrow and in contempt for his own human descent - but I do not think we want to go this route?

The point I am trying to make is: if Dior (a presumably reasonable being) finds it worthwhile to continue Thingol's legacy, then there must be something in it worth of continuation.

I might be missing something, but I'm not sure why a descendant of Thingol returning to rule Doriath means that that descendant is abandoning ties to the other side of their family.

Dior can take up Thingol's crown without being spiritual successor. And he doesn't have to be preferring Thingol's legacy above Beren's. I guess I just don't see it as the either-or proposition you are laying out.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

The session will begin with a discussion of Glaurung. The goal is to establish how Glaurung gets from Keep Helevorn back to Angband prior to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and then to figure out what, if anything, needs to happen in Season 6 to tell that story. The goal is to save Glaurung screentime until Season 7, but at the same time, we need to know ourselves what is happening with him.

I'm actually a bit nervous about handling the disposition of a dragon off-screen. But at this moment, I can't think of anything better than a end-season tag where we see Glaurung being recalled. This would be a teaser for his role in the Nirnaeth. But I am incredulous that an entire season could go by without Maedhros doing something about his presence. But if we do it any earlier, we are telling the audience that we are going to be using Glaurung in _this_ season rather than the next.

 

[MithLuin]

Concerning Glaurung....

The reason for his recall could simply be that now is the time to make some baby dragons, and they need the father of dragons for that. Granted, it took HUNDREDS of YEARS for him to reach full grown status, and the Nirnaeth is less than two decades away. So, uhhh, fast growing dragons??

I agree that simply leaving the dragon to sit in Keep Helevorn is not a particularly wise choice on the part of the elves. So, if they do that, it's not really a matter of choice. One possibility is that they are occupied with reconquering the rest of East Beleriand and the March of Maedhros after the incursions during the Dagor Bragollach, and rebuilding Himring (a lot of curtain walls were sacrificed in that final offensive, IIRC). So, perhaps 'dealing with the dragon' is on Maedhros' to-do list, but he hasn't gotten there quite yet....

This season moves very quickly, especially compared to other seasons. The events cover about 10 years. And...we've just deleted 4 of those by not having the solo-Beren-in-Dorthonion storyline. So, the majority of the action takes place over about 2 years, with however much 'set up' we need as interim between the Dagor Bragollach and the start of the action.

Letting the dragon stay in place for 7 years may not be the greatest plan, but as a 'temporary containment' situation it may be a viable choice...with the understanding that something more permanent is urgently needed. That delay is all that would be needed to make the dragon a Season 7 problem.

Also, as an aside, I'm not sure Maedhros is going to appear in this season at all. Celegorm and Curufin can talk about what he's up to, but unless we see them return to him in East Beleriand after the Exile from Nargothrond / Leap of Beren fiasco, we are unlikely to have a reason to bring him into the story. Same with Fingon. Obviously, we'll see a good deal of both of them next season.

 

[Odola]

I might be missing something, but I'm not sure why a descendant of Thingol returning to rule Doriath means that that descendant is abandoning ties to the other side of their family.

Dior Eluchil can take up Thingol's crown without being spiritual successor. And he doesn't have to be preferring Thingol's legacy above Beren's. I guess I just don't see it as the either-or proposition you are laying out.

Dior takes Thingol's name and not Beren's as his patronym.

He is not like Aragorn, who is called "Isildur's heir" only occassionally but goes as "Son of Arathorn" normally. It is like changing one's last name. Dior is never called "Beren's Son" officially. He does not become a ruler of men as the heir of the House of Beor which would naturaly be his primary duty. Dior actually abandons and abdicates all his duties and obligations towards humanity that he has through his descent and which are considerable.

This is not understandable if all he had ever known of Thingol was how bad his grandfather treated his parents resulting in the (first) deaths of both.

Or you risk making Dior looking just power greedy enough to abandon any loyalty to his parents and his father's name (a BIG thing) just to get Thingol's throne.

Theoretically Dior could still have been called "Beren's Son" as the King of Doriath. But he becomes Eluchil.
If all that Elu ever was was being a jerk, this is not understandable.

 

[Haerangil]

Why not? Beren and Luthien wanted to reconsider with their father/in law, that is a nice thing to do.

On Thingol having some reason to be a jerk... he could still briefly mention in dialogue that there are orc raids on the borders so we might see him being stressed for a reason.That might work without showing much of that conflict or making it a major plot point.

 

[Odola]

Why not? Beren and Luthien wanted to reconsider with their father/in law, that is a nice thimg to do.

Reconcilation is one thing, letting one's only child join into another descent line and as such abandoning and deserting one's own is another - could be done, but needs some reason behind it.

On Thingol habing some reason to be a jerk... he could still briefly mention in dialogue that there are orc raids on the birders so we might see him being stressed for a reason.That might work without showing much of that conflict or making it a major plot point.

Yes, but we see Thingol being a jerk later also - leading to his own demise - so the brief formal reconcilation with B&L after their return is imho too little to explain why Dior decides "to take up Thingol's (grey 😉 ) mantle".

I think we should be reminded somehow that Thingol - for all his faults - was, is and remains one of the greatest elvish rulers ever. After Finwe's death he is the only one left who can be called something like Ingwë's peer. That's a very high level. But we lose this completely by making him a complete jerk and make all the Sindar that he represents - Cirdian included - look very stupid indeed to accept such a person as their highest ruler and ambassador.

 

[Haerangil]

The lines...

Beren had no surviving line and nothing a child could have inherited. On the other hand Thingol had no male heir so it makes sense in that case the female succession line took over. No problem.

Also, the Sindar are not perfect, i do not see much of a problem with showing Thingol as a very flawed character.He needs no reasons but being very mighty and powerful.Thats enough for a nice fall already.

Dior wishing to set some things right his grandfather did mess up?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

And then we need to address the situation in Nargothrond. There are significant politics involved, so figuring out how and when and why each step plays out will take some careful attention. How does the usurpation go down at Nargothrond? What are Celegorm and Curufin doing there, and what happens between them and Orodreth that leads to Finrod being abandoned to his fate? Also, recall that Gil-galad's departure for Círdan's camp happens at this time, presumably because his life is threatened by the political situation.

Dior takes Thingol's name and not Beren's as his patronym.

He is not like Aragorn, who is called "Isildur's heir" only occassionally but goes as "Son of Arathorn" normally. It is like changing one's last name. Dior is never called "Beren's Son" officially. He does not become a ruler of men as the heir of the House of Beor which would naturaly be his primary duty. Dior actually abandons and abdicates all his duties and obligations towards humanity that he has through his descent and which are considerable.

This is not understandable if all he had ever known of Thingol was how bad his grandfather treated his parents resulting in the (first) deaths of both.

Or you risk making Dior looking just power greedy enough to abandon any loyalty to his parents and his father's name (a BIG thing) just to get Thingol's throne.

Theoretically Dior could still have been called "Beren's Son" as the King of Doriath. But he becomes Eluchil.
If all that Elu ever was was being a jerk, this is not understandable.

Beren doesn't end up a leader of men either, so there is no mantle there for Dior to take up. The House of Bëor is absorbed by those of Haleth and Hador, so there is no natural primary duty for Dior to rule them. On top of that, even if the House of Bëor still existed as a separate entity, is there a compelling reason why Dior has more responsibility to his father's people than his mother's?

On top of that, it seems like we're ignoring Thingol's rehabilitation at the end of this season and through the Turin story.

 

[Odola]

Beren doesn't end up a leader of men either, so there is no mantle there for Dior to take up. The House of Bëor is absorbed by those of Haleth and Hador, so there is no natural primary duty for Dior to rule them. On top of that, even if the House of Bëor still existed as a separate entity, is there a compelling reason why Dior has more responsibility to his father's people than his mother's?

Yes, because Dior according to Tolkien should have been a mortal = human - as a default. And it does not make sense for a mortal to rule immortals, he will be dead before they even start to get used to him and his policies.

As Son of Beren Son of Barahir he has a duty to at least attempt to recover Ladros if he can and to rule of what is left of his House of Beor first - before Doriath. His duty towards humans is less removed then any towards the Sindar. Either he values Thingol more then the House of Beor for some personal reasons ot he makes a reverse-Arwen choice for the sake of Nimloth his wife - but in this later case he would still not change his patronym to Eluchil.

On top of that, it seems like we're ignoring Thingol's rehabilitation at the end of this season and through the Turin story.

What I mean this rehabilitation has to be substantial enough to outweight both his current and future jerkness episodes.

 

[Haerangil]

Was Dior born before or after Beren did return from the dead? I believe after so... Beren's exact condition at the point is a bit unclear, just as luthiens.So there is no real default for Dior that time, it never had happened before that a mortal returned from Mandos halls or an immortal became mortal.And there is no reason to believe the Doriathrim had any rules which ever considered this.As far as we know they didn't even have real rules of succession... Thingol was their very first king!

 

[Odola]

The lines...

Beren had no surviving line and nothing a child could have inherited. On the other hand Thingol had no male heir so it makes sense in that case the female succession line took over. No problem.

? Dior was Beren's surving lin?. And there were still some refugees from his House living in diaspora he had a duty towards.

Also, the Sindar are not perfect, i do not see much of a problem with showing Thingol as a very flawed character.He needs no reasons but being very mighty and powerful.Thats enough for a nice fall already.

As Noldophil and Sinda-sceptic as I am myself I still do think painting the Sindar in such a bad light as this is not warranted. They actually are the default elves in ME - they deserve some respect.

Dior wishing to set some things right his grandfather did mess up?

You mean Dior being a conscious "heir repairent" of Thingol? A very interesting idea - but would need some set up.

 

[Odola]

Was Dior born before or after Beren did return from the dead?

After. But Tolkien declared clearly all Peredhil were by default human/mortal by nature.

 

[Haerangil]

Well allright 1st, Dior had zero connection to that line. 2nd, i see a vast difference between disrespecting folks and acknowledging they are everything but perfect. 3, yes sort of, but i agree, he should be given a bit of a backstory of how he comes to his conclusions, a dialogue maybe.


In that case Dior should have been mortal and not peredhil at all as by time of his birth Luthien was mortal.In any way we seem to have to acknowledge that these rules are not for Dior.He is an Elf!

 

[Odola]

In that cade Dior should have been mortal and not peredhil at all as by time if his birth Luthien was mortal.In any way we seem to have to acknowledge thst these rules are not for Dior.He is an Elf!

Dior for sure behaves like he were an elf, still he is a Peredhel - as from him both lines of the Peredhil - the mortal and the elven one - are due to descent. As such he cannot be fixed either way before his death or this would not be possible - as he has no twin brother to start the other line. But by nature Dior should be a mortal. As such a human, and as such a ruler of men. That he decides to follow Thingol instead implies he considers Thingol to be worth following. As such Thingol must be worth following = not be a complete jerk.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Dior for sure behaves like he were an elf, still he is a Peredhel - as from him both lines of the Peredhil - the mortal and the elven one - are due to descent. As such he cannot be fixed either way before his death or this would not be possible - as he has no twin brother to start the other line. But by nature Dior should be a mortal. As such a human, and as such a ruler of men. That he decides to follow Thingol instead implies he consider Thingol to be worth following. As such Thingol must be worth following = not be a complete jerk.

What does that look like, to your thinking?