Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Does Thingol have no good moments in the Published Silmarillion?
Session 6-05: Glaurung and Nargothrond
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Does Thingol have no good moments in the Published Silmarillion?
Odola
Well-Known Member
Much is said about the love the Sindar have for him but it is never shown exactly why - we do not see him earn it in any way. Nor do we see why Melian loves him beyond him being tall and dashing.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Fortunately, we have spent a lot more time with Thingol, as a leader, a battlefield commander, a father, and a husband. We don't have the same problems the Lay of Leithian has, and thus we do not need to rely on the same solutions. We will spend plenty of time with Thingol after this, and thus do not need to plan out seasons 8-10 right now.
Odola
Well-Known Member
So how does this season's "jerk-Thingol" fit the previously shown character? And the following seasons do not need to be planned out, just not be made impossible.
Octoburn
Active Member
Having a 15 year old daughter myself, I can relate to going from "pretty good dad" to "jerk" when your daughter walks in with someone that you don't approve of.
Of course, that's Thingol's character arc this season, no? Going from "haha, he's not worthy, send him to his extremely likely death" to "I now pronounce you man and wife."
Of course, that's Thingol's character arc this season, no? Going from "haha, he's not worthy, send him to his extremely likely death" to "I now pronounce you man and wife."
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Odola
Well-Known Member
But you still would not be a jerk to your wife, your neighbours or your work colleagues during such a time, I assume?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
At the very least, he has to be consistent, none of this "kills King to save the people", then "says he never cared about the people" nonsense.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I would suggest a review of previous appearances of Thingol to see how his arc progression has gone. There has definitely been work done with his character to avoid whiplash.
Just a housekeeping comment:
Obviously, you are welcome to discuss what you like when you like on the messageboard. But if you would like your ideas to be conveyed to Corey Olsen prior to the session, I ask that you post your thoughts by Tuesday. There are times when I can include something posted later, but I cannot guarantee ideas will be passed on if they are posted later than the Tuesday prior to the session.
Also, the more that the conversation sticks to the questions posted at the top of the thread, the more likely we will be generating conversation that contributes to the session. For the last two sessions, there have been a lot of posts I've had to skim past to gather relevant ideas to pass along. Which is fine, but it becomes more likely that I will miss contributions people are making when the conversation heads off in other directions. Side topics are fine...but I do not want people to be surprised or disappointed if the content of their posts does not make it into the Powerpoint slides.
Obviously, you are welcome to discuss what you like when you like on the messageboard. But if you would like your ideas to be conveyed to Corey Olsen prior to the session, I ask that you post your thoughts by Tuesday. There are times when I can include something posted later, but I cannot guarantee ideas will be passed on if they are posted later than the Tuesday prior to the session.
Also, the more that the conversation sticks to the questions posted at the top of the thread, the more likely we will be generating conversation that contributes to the session. For the last two sessions, there have been a lot of posts I've had to skim past to gather relevant ideas to pass along. Which is fine, but it becomes more likely that I will miss contributions people are making when the conversation heads off in other directions. Side topics are fine...but I do not want people to be surprised or disappointed if the content of their posts does not make it into the Powerpoint slides.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Regarding Glaurungs offspring polluting the waters:
the olm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olm was regarded in former times as a "baby form of dragons". "It was first mentioned in 1689 by the local naturalist Valvasor in his Glory of the Duchy of Carniola, who reported that, after heavy rains, the olms were washed up from the underground waters and were believed by local people to be a cave dragon's offspring." Those live in caves, but having similar "tadpoles" wiggling in Rivil's Well might do the trick?
the olm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olm was regarded in former times as a "baby form of dragons". "It was first mentioned in 1689 by the local naturalist Valvasor in his Glory of the Duchy of Carniola, who reported that, after heavy rains, the olms were washed up from the underground waters and were believed by local people to be a cave dragon's offspring." Those live in caves, but having similar "tadpoles" wiggling in Rivil's Well might do the trick?
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Yeah, It was spitballing, and I can argue against my own idea, but you demolished it nicely.
@MithLuin
point noted, I visit the boards sporadically, so have to respond when I can. Totally ok with items not landing in the slides etc, and ideas just floating out there.
Octoburn
Active Member
Maybe not necessarily be a jerk, but some people can be more ruled by emotion than other, and I feel Thingol has shown (and will in the future show) that he can let his temperament and actions be ruled by his emotions. And I'm really not sure of the instances you're referring to when he's a jerk to his wife, neighbors and work colleagues during the Beren and Luthien story? I've not heard him discussed in the sessions yet, and I don't recall any instances within the Silmarillion text, outside of when he initially meets Beren and when Celegorm and Curufin try to force him to marry Luthien off.
I believe @MithLuin has already covered how we can keep Thingol's story basically as-is, without him coming off as a huge jerk here.
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Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
On the other hand Thingol didn't seem to have any idea about who Lúthien should marry. A more comedic version of this would be the montage in My Big Fat Greek Wedding of Gus parading various Greek men in front of Toula in the hopes she would choose one.
Octoburn
Active Member
We could go that route and have her arguing with Thingol because he wants her to wed Daeron or Saeros or something, but I feel it would move her too much towards Disney princess, which is not at all what she is.
Odola
Well-Known Member
He ignores several of Melian's statements completely as if she were thin air, while at the same time hiding behind her girdle the whole time, imprisons his adult daughter, while he does not search for her (in the texts) when she might be in real danger, refuses Daeron's intercession for Luthien, refuses help and refuge to the victims of war, does not even morally support the fight against Morgoth, forbids languages and is all pretence while never doing anything for anyone else. Enough? If we remove the few achievements the texts give him, his character descend into such a depth of jerkdom that it will be difficult to recover it back when we need it to be taken seriously as a kings worthy of being followed if we do not give him something to recover ground with. Just accepting Luthien's choice of husband when becoming aware that she is an adult and completely able to do what she wants and e.g. move out and live on her own with her lover - out of fear of losing her himself - does not in itself rehabilitate him enough.
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Octoburn
Active Member
a. I found a grand total of two times he "ignores" her.
- she warns him that his wrath will entwine Beren's fate with his. again, this ruffian broke into his kingdom and tells him he will marry his daughter (who is also supposed the be the most beautiful elf to ever live) on the first day he meets him. forgo my wrath? please.
- she tells him to surrender the Silmaril to the Feanorians. This can easily be played down with a bit of "then their quest was in vain" talk. should he have listened in both cases? probably. but would we have even gotten Earendil without this whole turn of events?
c. he protected his daughter from running off to an almost certain death.
d. not sure who the victims of war are here, but he brought in many of the green elves (and even allows the guest-elves to stay within the Girdle) and I'm pretty sure took in refugees after the Bragollach.
e. he forbade the language of a group of people that murdered his brother and many other family members.
f. he did send out spies when he heard that Luthien was in Nargothrond and was ready to make war with the Feanorians.
again, most of this can be justified (actually imprisoning his daughter being the biggest exception) and is, in context, at worst irrational. All living beings are (or can be) irrational.
All that said, I agree that the Boldog fight should be in there, but not for that reason.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Melian does not even bother to tell him about a human from the House of Beor entering the girdle when he officially declares that that will not happen - she knows he will ignore her anyway - as she states herself - so ignoring her seems habitual on his part by this time.
Exactly. He is not the one protecting his own country. Which is the main job of a king. He lets his wife do his job (as she is better than he is at this) but then dares to ignore her? Not becoming.
She was no longer a minor and has commited no crime to be put under house arrest. As such her freedom was not to be restrained in this way.
He could reason with her or burden her as his subject with a task for the country which would have prevented her from leaving. He just wanted to demonstrate his power over her - without any valid justification.
We are not told much about that.
Thranduil sends supplies to the people of Esgaroth after their town has been burned down. We do not see Thingol doing the same?
Language does not harm people. Especially as holy language from Valinor used for lore and prayer. It was a move to avoid hearing that the Noldor are a more sophisticated culture which has technical and philosophical terms and ideas the Sindar had no need to develop. Forbiding the language of any of the Quendi to the Quendi in question is unwarranted - it is an act of intentional deculturation - a very totalitarian and imperialistic move.
In Nargothrond she was only in danger of marrying somebody he did not approve of - in the end she could not have been forced against her own will (while she could be convinced against his will). She would not be eaten alive by some giant spider or a werewolf. When she was in any real danger of any real harm, he did not bother.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Well, most of the Disney Princesses (the ones born into royalty that is) rarely have more than one suitor. Snow White had nobody but the Prince who sings "One Song", Aurora was betrothed from birth to Prince Philip, Ariel had no suitors apart from Eric and she sought him out, Kida had no suitors (though nobody really thinks of her as a Disney Princess) apart from Milo, Elsa had no suitors that appeared (Hans mentions that nobody was getting anywhere with her), and Moana had none (Merida is technically Pixar). The exceptions are Jasmine (two suitors) and Anna (also two).
Really there aren't really many arguments outside of Ariel and Jasmine.
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Odola
Well-Known Member
"Then the King was filled with anger, for Lúthien he loved above all things, setting her above all the princes of the Elves; whereas mortal Men he did not even take into his service." & 'I sell not to Elves or Men those whom I love and cherish above all treasure.: -Thingol did not want her to marry at all, seeing noone worthy of her. She would have stayed his litle girl for ever. She could have had suitors like Daeron to entertain her, but why marry? As an immortal he did not need a heir really.
Glaurung storyline for Season 6, as outlined in this session :
1) The dwarves of Belegost will attempt to besiege Keep Helevorn, so we will see their dragon defenses in action.
2) After the defeat of Sauron at Tol Sirion, Morgoth will recall Glaurung, instructing him to take over Dorthonion.
3) Glaurung will go to Dorthonion, and eventually turn the place into Taur na Fuin. He will befoul Rivil's well with baby dragons, aka an abomination and existential horror adding to the madness-inducing nature of the place. (Some of this will be for later seasons)
4) Meanwhile, the Dwarves of Belegost will take over the newly-abandoned Keep Helevorn. They will send their demands to Maedhros, who will accept their terms easily. Caranthir will be mad, but not in a position to do anything about it. Caranthir gets his keep back, but the dwarves keep a good deal of the treasure and that is the end of the toll road.
5) After the Nirnaeth, Sauron will return to Dorthonion for a baby dragon/fall of Gondolin plotline.
1) The dwarves of Belegost will attempt to besiege Keep Helevorn, so we will see their dragon defenses in action.
2) After the defeat of Sauron at Tol Sirion, Morgoth will recall Glaurung, instructing him to take over Dorthonion.
3) Glaurung will go to Dorthonion, and eventually turn the place into Taur na Fuin. He will befoul Rivil's well with baby dragons, aka an abomination and existential horror adding to the madness-inducing nature of the place. (Some of this will be for later seasons)
4) Meanwhile, the Dwarves of Belegost will take over the newly-abandoned Keep Helevorn. They will send their demands to Maedhros, who will accept their terms easily. Caranthir will be mad, but not in a position to do anything about it. Caranthir gets his keep back, but the dwarves keep a good deal of the treasure and that is the end of the toll road.
5) After the Nirnaeth, Sauron will return to Dorthonion for a baby dragon/fall of Gondolin plotline.