Amazon series: reactions to news and rumours. (Spoiler alert!)

Rob Harding

Well-Known Member
But those are all elves addressing mortals. Where we know elves adjust their speech down to the mortal level. And if we have elf on elf dialog - we have them through Bilbo's lense when he wrote the Silmarilion - he was not there - as such he delivers the content of those speeches as they were reported to him after ages (and we are told elves do not remember those verbatim, but only the meaning that was expressed - otherwise their language would not change much over time - or at least the oldest elves would remember all the previous stages/versions of their own language - which they explicitly do not - they still need scholars for that) or from songs or legends - not the literal original speech.

Delivery?
Clear, not slowed down (as in the discussed scene elves speak among themselves, and not to mortals), unrestrained, competent, poetic, melodious, precise with meaning, pauses and intonation - with a feel of mastery over language as a concept and its actual physical verbal expression, with actual joy in the performance - savouring the words. - No mumbling of any kind.
It feels like the desire here is for dialogue as close to song as possible without being sung. Not merely spoken lyrics, but a song like quality of some nature. From your apt description. If that makes sense. Which would be fitting
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
It is simply not true that we have only elf-mortal dialogue in the Lord of the Rings. We have a conversation between Treebeard, Celeborn, and Galadriel, part of which I have already quoted in this conversation.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I agree.But in-verse it was written down by a mortal, Bilbo, so technically, Odola still has a point.

However, i also am of the opinion that a certain transition and simplification for a mortal audience is necessary.It would be a differentbthing if we were all elves and targeting an immortal audience... seasons and episodes would also be much longer...
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
That portion of the Red Book was most likely written by Frodo, but yes, at the end of the day, all elven dialogue was written by Tolkien, a mortal.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
That portion of the Red Book was most likely written by Frodo, but yes, at the end of the day, all elven dialogue was written by Tolkien, a mortal.
Still in what language would Treebeard address the elves? Sindarin. A such the dialog as given is a paraphrase into Westron of the sense and not of the form of what has been spoken. Frodo does understand Sindarin - still he does not give us the original here - beyond the Quenya in the middle of Treebeard's speech "A vanimar, vanimalion, nostari!" (A little daring of Treebeard to address Celeborn in Quenya - but still Treebeard is probably not subject to Thingol's ban.)
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Presumably, Thingol's ban does not outlive Thingol and is not in effect in Third Age Middle-earth. There is no real indication that the 'Elf Latin' is taboo in the Third Age, merely that few speak it as a daily language any longer at this point in history. Galadriel, after all, sings the lament "Námarië" in front of Celeborn, her people, and her guests earlier in the story, and there's no suggestion that that is particularly daring or taboo or rude.


...but all of Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit, and The Silmarillion being the work of translators is a good excuse for an adapter to rework the language to suit their needs, quoting directly from the source material only sparingly.
 
I confess I’m actually looking forward to the dialogue in ROP.

I think we process conversation differently when we hear it compared to when we read it. Tolkien’s dialogues are brilliant, of-course. However, if the writers tried to emulate his written dialogue too closely, in particular with respect to long, complex sentences, it might be perceived as staid or even pretentious. It may be better to keep the structure more akin to the modern-day speech, but to elevate the style. We’ve heard very little so far. But take this, for example (exaggerated) -

Elrond could have said to Galadriel:
”Try & relax, would you dear? You’ve done plenty. Go have a bit of fun now!”
instead he says:
”You have fought long enough, Galadriel. Put up your sword.” - this I think is beautifully (and simply) written & masterfully delivered by the actor.

Likewise, Gil-galad could have said:
“I have a bad feeling about this!”
instead he says:
“Darkness will March over the face of the earth; it will be the end not just of our people but of all peoples.”

And there’s Galadriel’s introduction to the main trailer - “We thought the war, at last, was ended. We thought our joys would be unending. We thought our light would never dim.” - iambic tetrameter, as pointed out by prof Olsen - Tolkien’s favorite poetic meter.

You guys are the experts at this though. This is just how it comes across to me as a casual observer.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I confess I’m actually looking forward to the dialogue in ROP.

I think we process conversation differently when we hear it compared to when we read it. Tolkien’s dialogues are brilliant, of-course. However, if the writers tried to emulate his written dialogue too closely, in particular with respect to long, complex sentences, it might be perceived as staid or even pretentious. It may be better to keep the structure more akin to the modern-day speech, but to elevate the style. We’ve heard very little so far. But take this, for example (exaggerated) -

Elrond could have said to Galadriel:
”Try & relax, would you dear? You’ve done plenty. Go have a bit of fun now!”
instead he says:
”You have fought long enough, Galadriel. Put up your sword.” - this I think is beautifully (and simply) written & masterfully delivered by the actor.

Likewise, Gil-galad could have said:
“I have a bad feeling about this!”
instead he says:
“Darkness will March over the face of the earth; it will be the end not just of our people but of all peoples.”

And there’s Galadriel’s introduction to the main trailer - “We thought the war, at last, was ended. We thought our joys would be unending. We thought our light would never dim.” - iambic tetrameter, as pointed out by prof Olsen - Tolkien’s favorite poetic meter.

You guys are the experts at this though. This is just how it comes across to me as a casual observer.
Yes I join you among the casual observers then. I like what I’ve heard so far and think it sounds fine. No, more than fine.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I like them. Both a bit unoriginal in that they remix too much Howard shore elements and sound a bit like Videogame soundtracks..

But is that really negative? I still like what i have heard.
 
I’ve also liked the soundtracks.
It’s difficult to judge a film scores without the accompanying movie. McCreary has big boots to fill but has his own impressive résumé. I think he’ll deliver.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Final trailer out, as it seems...
Well...
Very confusing for me.

The shown elvish attitude towards fate seems strange.
And same also Galadriel's phase about leaving something behind - if it is the past what she means. As Tolkien wrote, for elves the past is in the front and their back is towards the future, They are facing the point of their origin that they move further and further away from as the time goes on. They do not move toward an assumed better future. For them the best already has been.
 
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