Balrogs

exactly

presumably they were so bright that they generated a lot of heat - but was the devastation due to this heat, to the sheer size of the pillars, or to the fact that nothing mundane could withstand the light?

I do seem to recall that 'fire was poured out', but the nature of this fire could have been very unlike ordinary fire
 
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I'm not sure I follow you. They were attacked, the fire Maiar (proto-balrogs) destroyed them. Did you read through our thread on the Lamps? Or maybe I should say threads. We discussed them quite a lot.
 
I actually got caught up in the discussion and forgot where we were...

like you said, and from what I understand, the light of the Lamps was gathered up from primordial mists - it wasn't exactly fire. but when the Lamps were broken, "fire" poured out

the Valar had consecrated the Lamps, or the light itself, the way they consecrated the Silmarils, so I bear in mind the effect they had on Morgoth, the great wolf and the flesh of Beren's hand

when I questioned whether they were actually attacked, I was partly referring to another version, where Melkor reinforced the pillars with ice, and the heat of the Lamps melted it, and they collapsed, and the ice from the pillars formed seas... Tolkien kept the seas, but apparently did away with the rest, only I wonder if it's still relevant. but there's also the existence of the round earth theory, a more literal take on middle earth, where the Sun and Moon existed before the Trees, and the Lamps are associated with Numenorean legend, potentially significant because of Sauron's involvement with Numenor

I'm only just now finding out about it, myself... I have a lot more materials to gather, I think - and catching up to do.
 
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I am late to the party, please forgive me if I repeate something another has already said. I have not found the older threads about the Lamps and origin of the Balrogs...


I think there are not many Balrogs – I believe in Annals of Aman Tolkien wrote that there were no more than 7 of them. I think that Ecthelion and Glorfindel and Gandalf killing one each, with the assistance of a fall into a fountain or off the side of a mountain, and at the cost of sacrificing their own lives, should be emphasized as badass and epic especially because it was unprecedented. Fingon, not at all a pushover, faced a single Balrog in battle and was literally crushed. I think that all but one Balrog would have been destroyed (that is, dis-carnated, reduced to impotent “ghosts”) in the War of Wrath. If Ingwion is to kill one, it should be at the cost of his own life. Eonwë and Thorondor could each kill one. Imagine Thorondor grasping one in his talons and carrying it up to a huge height, while it nearly flays his legs with its fiery whip, and then flinging it down into the deepest unroofed pit of Angband.

I like the idea of Balrogs being essentially faceless and wingless. What should be or was their face is a featureless shadow with eyes of flame. What should be wings are sheets of shadow that look disturbing, but cannot be used to fly. Being reduced to no apparent gender is good, too. I do not think they should be ranged fighters. They fight with fiery swords and fiery whips, and I’ve always thought of the whips as literal tongues of fire that they extrude and wield as whips, not as physical weapons. I do not like mixing in concepts from the Lost Tales, such as an entire race of Balrogs that Morgoth created from scratch. The Lost Tales are so different in character from the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings.

I love the idea of the Balrog's own hate and moral corruption finally burning and ruining their fanar, and trapping them in those hideous fanar, at the time they assault and destroy the Lamps. But I'm confused by the reference to Melkor helping to build the Lamps. That seems to contradict the Quenta Silmarillion.


I agree with MithLuin that nobody should kill a Balrog and live to tell of it. And I do not think of Elrond or Elros as warriors. They had to learn to fight, of course, but in the LotR Elrond is a healer. And in Eldarin tradition, healers are not warriors and only go to fight at the last resort. I think being a healer, not a warrior, is a central part of Elrond's character, and probably of Elros' as well. Their part was to try to heal the broken world and people left behind after the War of Wrath.

Sauron and the Balrogs were the mightiest of Morgoth’s demons, but there were other lesser demons, plus the giant spiders of Nan-Dungortheb who were each as terrible as Shelob. Destroying any one of those monsters, or a dragon, is an amazing feat worthy of any warrior. Emeldir may well have had to fight a giant spider or two in Nan Dungortheb or Taur-nu-Fuin to get her people to safety.

(As an aside, I also have finally thought up how Eärendil can kill a dragon while standing on his flying ship. He infuses the light of the Silmaril into a glass arrowhead, similar to the Phial of Galadriel. Then he steers his ship almost into Angalagon’s enormous jaws, shoots him in the eye just seconds before a fire-blast would burn his ship to nothing, then dives his ship out of the way of the dragon’s fall.)
 
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I love the idea of the Balrog's own hate and moral corruption finally burning and ruining their fanar, and trapping them in those hideous fanar, at the time they assault and destroy the Lamps. But I'm confused by the reference to Melkor helping to build the Lamps. That seems to contradict the Quenta Silmarillion.
If I remember correctly, we took that from the Book of Lost Tales. We also chose to extend Melkor's fall in season one, to show the stages rather than just have him be a full-stop villain from day one, to set up the prototype of Fall in Tolkien's world and to help make Manwe's actions in seasons 1 & 2 more understandable to a new audience. It's our biggest change, probably, from any version of the text.
 
I still believe we could use at least some of the details about balrogs given in lost tales as inspiration, though the balrod from lotr should be our main focus and role model of how we mainly depict our balrogs.

I also think we shouldn't use a separate race of balrog like in lt. I would have loved the idea that we only have seven balrogs like the princes of hell... However the execs chose we have two dozen, well now so be it.

But we still can cheat and invent a race of lesser warrior demons as stand ins. These would not be balrogs but just lesser fallen maiar and be a larger number and far less powerless than their iverlords and we use rhese lesser demons instead of balrogs any time greater groups of balrogs are mentioned in some older text we use as inspiration.

I am not adamant in giving the balrogs bows, horses, darts and somw of the other weapons i've found quotes about. A lot of these quotes were from lt when balrogs were still a larger number if less powerful beings than they later became...

It was just a collection of quotes i wanted to throw in as possible inspiration. We could use some of that stuff for lesser warrior- demons though if we like to... I would like to use them in such a way. A hint or alusion that we are aware of the older text and respect it, but interpret it in a way which makes it fit easier with the newer concepts.
 
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(As an aside, I also have finally thought up how Eärendil can kill a dragon while standing on his flying ship. He infuses the light of the Silmaril into a glass arrowhead, similar to the Phial of Galadriel. Then he steers his ship almost into Angalagon’s enormous jaws, shoots him in the eye just seconds before a fire-blast would burn his ship to nothing, then dives his ship out of the way of the dragon’s fall.)

I like this idea. I had also considered the possibility of using a metal ram mounted on the ship's prow.
 
I am not adamantin giving the balrogs bows, horses, darts and somw of the other weapons i'cve found quotes about. A lot if these quotes were from lt when balrogs were still a larger number if less powerful beings than they later became...

It was just a collection of quotes i wanted to theow in as üossible inspiration. We could use some of that stuff for lesser warrior- demons though if we like to... I would like to use them in such a way. A hint or alusion that we are aware of the older text and respect it, but interpret it in a way which makes it fit easier with the newer concepts.

I've been thinking that fiery bows and axes would be really freakin cool.

definitely curious about these quotes
 
We have glorfindel and denethor kill to balrogs at gondolin... I don't remember if its given in detail that their bodies drowned in some river...
 
I only knew of Gothmog and Durin's Bane - both of them had been extinguished, even if they were killed by something else... I'm definitely getting the impression that their fire keeps them alive

but a long fall could also achieve this, maybe
 
Well so at last two of three of our dying balrogs fell into waters - the third one we still can' t rule out -

However durins bane survived falling into the waters of morias underworld, he transformed into some sort of slimy being and then eventually reimbodied and made it up to the to of caradhras, from where gandalf threw him down into the glacier snow.
 
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right - they weren't killed by the waters, but was it necessary to extinguish them before they could be killed, is the question. long falls excepted maybe.

it seems like a little-known secret, if so... like every Balrog death has either been due to sheer luck, or a brilliant guess

I mean, a spiked helmet doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would do in a Balrog, unless it is otherwise rendered quite vulnerable
 
I think the sheer size of them makes most people think twice before engaging in close combat with them. They also seem to have an aura of fear that scare off enemies. So you have to be really brave and mentally strong to attack them and do it with full mental capacity. Even then, their size gives them a huge advantage. Their range is greater than almost anyone's and the power of their blows is remarkable. They also seem to be quite fast? The description of them 'flying' implies that they can run fast at least. I do think, overall, they should be quick in their movements. They are of fire initially, so even if that fire is reduced and can be extiguished leaving a slimy black thing I think it would fit their fiery nature to be quick. They're not slow trolls. So they would probably be able to not only be deadly fast attackers but also have quick reflexes and be skilled defensively.
I say all this because I think that even if people might know theoretically how to kill one of the Balrogs, it does not necessarily mean that it is possible to do it unless you're a great warrior or a Maia fighting in the right circumstaces, and/or very lucky.
 
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I think the sheer size of them makes most people think twice before engaging in close combat with them. They also seem to have an aura of fear that scare off enemies. So you have to be really brave and mentally strong to attack them and do it with full mental capacity. Even then, their size gives them a huge advantage. Their range is greater than almost anyone's and the power of their blows is remarkable. They also seem to be quite fast? The description of them 'flying' implies that they can run fast at least. I do think, overall, they should be quick in their movements. They are of fire initially, so even if that fire is reduced and can be extiguished leaving a slimy black thing I think it would fit their fiery nature to be quick. They're not slow trolls. So they would probably be able to not only be deadly fast attackers but also have quick reflexes and be skilled defensively.
I say all this because I think that even if people might know theoretically how to kill one of the Balrogs, it does not necessarily mean that it is possible to do it unless you're a great warrior or a Maia fighting in the right circumstaces, and/or very lucky.


And of course, let's not forget the possibility of the Gondolindhrim possessing Balrog-bane weapons. ;)
 
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