Beren's equipment

[Odola]

Ooo... i love that medieval irish spear/javelin!

The first video is a variant of kestros, isn't it?

Not really, Kestros works with short, heavy darts -

What do we want him to use it for? If he fights against orcs, thennhe should use heavier javelins that wpuld possibly pierce their shields... amentum clearly gets the upper hand.

But if he mostly hunts and kills lots of great spiders then we should use shorter, lighter darts... which would speak for the atlatl indeed.

True: Beren could have the atlatl in storage at the camp as an old archaic anti-spider weapon they do not use daily - that he takes with him explicitly when he decides to go via Ered Gorgoroth - and we could have him use javelins against orcs. Still he and his band would need a lot of these. But do orcs really carry around shields when roamimg about in Dorhonion? Those are mostly used for proper battles?

My interpretation was Dagmor was as an arming sword.

But does Beren have it in Dorthonion/Ered Gorgoroth? Would he not loose it there? What is its origin?

 

[Haerangil]

Or he makes one by himself, like he makes his own darts... he should be an able improviser!

 

[Haerangil]

My interpretation was Dagmor was as an arming sword.

Arming swords are supposed cavalry weapons for armor piercing, aren't they?

Could work...

A somewhat shorter variant? Black bladed or black hilted maybe?

 

[Odola]

Arming swords are supposed cavalry weapons for armor piercing, aren't they?

Could work...

A somewhat shorter variant? Black bladed or black hilted maybe?

Could be a souvenir from Beren's Dagor Bragollach time. Still how does he get it thought the Ered Gorgoroth?

Or he makes one by himself, like he makes his own darts... he should be an able improviser!

Where and when? - in Dorhonion he has little time after his decission to leave (untill nightfall), in Ered Gorgoroth he has no material and also no leisure. Makes more sense for it to be part of the Beren's band's standard equipment, for the case some of them would have to enter the mountains or the spiders would voliate the border.


Possible javelin quivers shown here:

Quivers for Hand Thrown Javelins and Darts?

A resource for historic arms and armor collectors with photo galleries, reviews, reference materials, discussion forums, a bookstore and a comparison tool.

myarmoury.com

Djerid (weapon) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Haerangil]

Could be a souvenir from Beren's Dagor Bragollach time. Still how does he get it thought the Ered Gorgoroth?



Where and when? - in Dorhonion he has little time after his decission to leave (untill nightfall), in Ered Gorgoroth he has no material and also no leisure. Makes more sense for it to be part of the Beren's band's standard equipment, for the case some of them would have to enter the mountains or the spiders would voliate the border.


Possible javelin quivers shown here:

Quivers for Hand Thrown Javelins and Darts?

A resource for historic arms and armor collectors with photo galleries, reviews, reference materials, discussion forums, a bookstore and a comparison tool.

myarmoury.com

Djerid (weapon) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Would be cool if Dagmor originally was hif fathers weaponnor somwthing...
A gufr from the noldor, certainly a spuderslayer amongst other useful properties..

How long does it take to make an atlatl? For an experienced ranger? Half an hour? A simple throwing spear? Same time? But i won't fight over it...
I just say it is a weapon an outdoorsman can make in necessity if he knows what he is doing...

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Would be cool if Dagmor originally was hif fathers weaponnor somwthing...
A gufr from the noldor, certainly a spuderslayer amongst other useful properties..

How long does it take to make an atlatl? For an experienced ranger? Half an hour? A simple throwing spear? Same time? But i won't fight over it...
I just say it is a weapon an outdoorsman can make in necessity if he knows what he is doing...

I could roll with that; maybe Beren originally carries a messr-type weapon and that one is lost in Nan Dungortheb?

 

[Odola]

How long does it take to make an atlatl? For an experienced ranger? Half an hour? A simple throwing spear? Same time? But i won't fight over it...

A simple atlatl yes, if you take wood. Bone or antler takes more time, and if you want any to be pretty with some carvings, then more. But darts, with fledging, heads and weighting, take more time and you need some amount of those. Also the quiver. Much easier done if the set is already in storage somewhere just to be taken if needed.

And that's also why I think atlatl is better then javelins even for orc hunting - you can carry 3-5 heavy javelins with you but a quiver of atlatl darts (so around 1,5m/ 5 feet long) takes about 10 or more. Much better in a wooded setting. But no reason not to assume some in the band to carry jevelins also for some special uses.

 

[Haerangil]

Nah, i don't know...
Orcs wear mail or splint/scale armour, and helmets.and theyre made of steel. You don't usually fight such people with hunting spears or darts, you use a heavy spear to get rid of their shields... or hope to find some unprotected blind spots.And Beren is no elvish sniper!
There's a reason Greeks and romans used the Amentum, no atlatls.

The reason why i mention a woodsman making these weapons by himself is that Beren is on the run and might be losing, leving behind much valuable equipment, or be unable to retrieve fired projectiles

 

[Odola]

Nah, i don't know...
Orcs wear mail or splint/scale armour, and helmets.and theyre made of steel. You don't usually fight such people with hunting spears or darts, you use a heavy spear to get rid of their shields... or hope to some find unprotected blind spots.
There's a reason Greeks and romans used the Amentum, no atlatls.

The reason why i mention a woodsman making these weapons by himself is that Beren is onnthe run and might be losing much equipment, or be unable to retrieve fired projectiles

But Greeks/Romans used spears on open battle fields - not in woody ambush areas. In the latter ones hunting weapons are at an clear advantage. And orcs can be dressed lightly also - when not in a clear battle setting - see e.g. Moria orcs in the FOTR movie.

And there is little wood in Ered Gorgoroth and probably none in Nam Dungortheb to work on. Spider have no bones to use - but some of the monsters might. Also some fangs, claws, spikes and horns might be found.

 

[Haerangil]

All points for you!

 

[MithLuin]

I am not convinced that Nan Dungortheb is without trees. Yes, it is a harsh landscape. But its main characteristic is that it is deeply shadowed. Trees, even if not a full forest, would certainly give the spiderwebs something to cling to, and help create the space to have those deep shadows. Ered Gorgoroth is a south-facing cliff - it's not casting a shadow over the valley! The alternative is to transform the valley into a deep canyon with rock formations like Bryce Canyon or Antelope Canyon. Could be interesting, but it's not like the valley is ever described as a canyon, either, so trees are still a very reasonable interpretation of what can be found in this landscape!

Whether or not Peter Jackson's film depicted Moria goblins with heavy armor, we are here discussing an army from Angband in the First Age. Morgoth has a sophisticated war machine and his troops are well armored. True, they are an occupying force, not actively engaged in battle, so catching them at unaware moments may be possible. In Silm Film, armor works. But there is no reason to suspect that Barahir's band is stuck in an 'ewoks vs stormtroopers' situation. They also are outfitted as an army with appropriate weapons to fight their enemies.

And while they certainly have tools for hunting, keep in mind that Beren doesn't hunt animals.

 

[Odola]

I am not convinced that Nan Dungortheb is without trees. Yes, it is a harsh landscape. But its main characteristic is that it is deeply shadowed.

My point is: is a place where Ungoliant has spun her "unlight" and "mosters from before the sun" still dwell capable of having trees at all? Or do you have to have some "anti-trees" who do not process sunlight for living, but unlight? Are such at all possible?

And as his far-future-descendant ""Let us hunt some orc!"-Aragorn" Beren does do just that .

Beren's band has no horses nor carts drawn behind them with their armory, so they have to have weapons that are resonable light, versatile and easy to carry in a woodland setting (one of the reasons imho why e.g. a Woodland elf like Legoslas has no sword but only a long knive with him - climbing up trees with a full sword is a little difficult (even if Gandalf and Thurin do manage it in the Hobbit)).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272249526_Comparing_Atlatls_and_Bows_Accuracy_and_Learning_Curve

On the other hand, advantages can also be claimed for the atlatl. Atlatls are
used one-handed, so they can be used with a shield (Mason 1928; VanPool 2006),
fending stick (Geib 1990; LeBlanc 1999), or paddle in watercraft (Dickson 1985;
Mason 1885; Mau 1963; Raymond 1986). Atlatls are easier to use with heavy
gloves in cold weather, and less susceptible to wet weather (Mason 1885). The
heavier projectile thrown with an atlatl retains greater impact force (kinetic
energy, momentum) and penetration for big game and warfare (Dickson 1985;
Raymond 1986; VanPool 2006; Yu 2006). The larger points cause more
hemorrhage, the major killing mechanism of arrow or dart (King 1989). The
larger points on atlatl darts are more multipurpose, especially since they can be
mounted on a detachable foreshaft usable as a knife. An atlatl is a multipurpose
tool (depending on form and size): fending stick, club, dish, musical instrument,
fire-saw, canoe paddle, attached pressure flaker, or cutting tool (Gould 1970;
Raymond 1986; VanPool 2006). Atlatls are easier to make and maintain than
bows (Christenson 1986; Kellar 1955)

An atlatl's dart is better against orcs' thick skin than a mere arror - and while javelins would be even better, they are more difficult to carry in a woodland setting in reasonable amounts. Aztec fighters used war atlatl agains the Spanish with some success.

The Aztecs and the atlatl

The Aztecs and the atlatl or dart thrower

www.mexicolore.co.uk

It is frequently claimed that they would have penetrated metal armor. This is not true, but most of the Spaniards would have worn lighter chain mail or leather and padded cotton armor similar to that of the Aztecs, and Garcilaso de la Vega, a veteran of Indian fights in Peru and Florida, complained that atlatl darts would pass clear through a man.

 

[Haerangil]

So: dead trees. Possibly mummyfied trees!

 

[Haerangil]

My point is: is a place where Ungoliant has spun her "unlight" and "mosters from before the sun" still dwell capable of having trees at all? Or do you have to have some "anti-trees" who do not process sunlight for living, but unlight? Are such at all possible?

And as his far-future-descendant ""Let us hunt some orc!"-Aragorn" Beren does do just that .

Beren's band has no horses nor carts drawn behind them with their armory, so they have to have weapons that are resonable light, versatile and easy to carry in a woodland setting (one of the reasons imho why e.g. a Woodland elf like Legoslas has no sword but only a long knive with him - climbing up trees with a full sword is a little difficult (even if Gandalf and Thurin do manage it in the Hobbit)).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272249526_Comparing_Atlatls_and_Bows_Accuracy_and_Learning_Curve

On the other hand, advantages can also be claimed for the atlatl. Atlatls are
used one-handed, so they can be used with a shield (Mason 1928; VanPool 2006),
fending stick (Geib 1990; LeBlanc 1999), or paddle in watercraft (Dickson 1985;
Mason 1885; Mau 1963; Raymond 1986). Atlatls are easier to use with heavy
gloves in cold weather, and less susceptible to wet weather (Mason 1885). The
heavier projectile thrown with an atlatl retains greater impact force (kinetic
energy, momentum) and penetration for big game and warfare (Dickson 1985;
Raymond 1986; VanPool 2006; Yu 2006). The larger points cause more
hemorrhage, the major killing mechanism of arrow or dart (King 1989). The
larger points on atlatl darts are more multipurpose, especially since they can be
mounted on a detachable foreshaft usable as a knife. An atlatl is a multipurpose
tool (depending on form and size): fending stick, club, dish, musical instrument,
fire-saw, canoe paddle, attached pressure flaker, or cutting tool (Gould 1970;
Raymond 1986; VanPool 2006). Atlatls are easier to make and maintain than
bows (Christenson 1986; Kellar 1955)

An atlatl's dart is better against orcs' thick skin than a mere arror - and while javelins would be even better, they are more difficult to carry in a woodland setting in reasonable amounts. Aztec fighters used war atlatl agains the Spanish with some success.

The Aztecs and the atlatl

The Aztecs and the atlatl or dart thrower

www.mexicolore.co.uk

It is frequently claimed that they would have penetrated metal armor. This is not true, but most of the Spaniards would have worn lighter chain mail or leather and padded cotton armor similar to that of the Aztecs, and Garcilaso de la Vega, a veteran of Indian fights in Peru and Florida, complained that atlatl darts would pass clear through a man.

Lets not forget the different climate, the spaniards and Aztecs fought in hot , both dry and very humid conditions...
There is a reason why i frequently compare Orcs and Elves with romans and Celts.

 

[Odola]

Lets not forget the different climate, the spaniards and Aztecs fought in hot , both dry and very humid conditions...
There is a reason why i frequently compare Orcs and Elves with romans and Celts.

But the European Paleolithic atlatl's were used in late Ice Age Europe - in the Magdalenian, and they were also used by the historic Inuit as much as in Australia - a quite universal weapon. So far from limited to hot and humid.

And as for Celtic - how much I do love everything Celtic - Tolkien himself had reservation toward "Celtic" elements - as far I understand he found their myths slightly too chaotic and incoherent for his liking.
They certainly can appear so, as they are very multi-layered with some elements reaching back even into the Neolithic itself.

 

[Haerangil]

No, because of the spaniard's armor! That's why climate!

We do have a different understanding of celtic. "Celtic" Tolkien disliked because he thought of it as an inconsistant portmandeau... anything is celtic, british rural folklore, welsh, irish and breton fairytales, arthuriana and the historic old celts... it does not make any real sense, it's a wild mish-mash,therefore JRRT hated "celtic", and so do i and many people btw, for exactly the same reason (and trust me, there is no neolithic stuff at all in any of that!).

But that is not what i meant, i meant the historic celts of pre-christian to early dark ages middle-europe.
Dorthonion is similar to northern Britain in climate, less coastal influence on climate of course. The romans fought britanni tribes under such conditions, the romans in heavy armor, mail, helmet, large shield, spear, short sword

They fought light armored britanni, few armor, if any then mail, iron helmet, also large shield, spear, longer sword. Both few archers, some slingers though, and some but few cavalry, minus chariots with the southern britons of course.

So it is, i believe at last some bit comparable in warfare and terrain.

 

[Odola]

(and trust me, there is no neolithic stuff at all in any of that!).

Oh, there is. In the myths connected to the megalithic tombs. Those mythical incest stories a partially confirmed by the DNA of the inbred elites buried in theme - and those bloodlines go partially back to the Neolithic. Royal inbreeding is an ancient tradition - not only practiced by the pharaohs or the Incas but by ancient European elites also. - But that is a digression here.

 

[Haerangil]

That is not true.The celts themselves were unsure about these origins and made up mythological explanations, and we have little to none actual celtic pagan mythological material.What we have is medieval christian tradition which backprojected their own ideas and speculations on their half-forgotten past into tales we nowadays wrongly consider "celtic mythology" (that one which JRRT hated), while it is actually welsh and irish christian fairytale. You can trust me on this, i did study prehistory and the celts were my main subject.

But we don't need to go as far as ancient celts. I just saw pictures of medieval scottish and irish Soldiers... possibly also a good analogy - minus sea- battles.

 

[Odola]

That is not true.The celts themselves were unsure about these origins and made up mythological explanations, and we have little to none actual celtic pagan mythological material.What we have is medieval christian tradition which backprojected their own ideas and speculations on their half-forgotten past into tales we nowadays wrongly consider "celtic mythology" (that one which JRRT hated), while it is actually welsh and irish christian fairytale. You can trust me on this, i did study prehistory and the celts were my main subject.

But we don't need to go as far as ancient celts. I just saw pictures of medieval scottish and irish Soldiers... possibly also a good analogy - minus sea- battles.

But still stories connected to "semi-divine inhabitants of the ancient tombs" correspond to an extend to kinship structures of the society buried there - as revealed by the DNA studies of their remains. Kinship patterns that were long gone - in cases for millenia already - when those stories about them have been written down. Those "semi-divine" kings of legend reportedly buried there - who were marrying their very close kin to keep the bloodlines "pure" - seem to be exactly that - "semi-divine" kings. Their names might have been invented later, but their actual social role seems very much true.

 

[MithLuin]

We are straying far afield from Beren's kit.

I recognize that the atlatl was very useful for a variety of neolithic cultures. The House of Bëor at the time of the Dagor Bragollach is not a neolithic culture. Orcs are not wearing leather armor. The orc army of Angband has 'high tech' armor, not 'low tech' armor. They have Morgoth and Sauron, who know more than the Noldor about forging steel. The have captive Noldor slaves, including Curufin's wife, working for them to make the stuff. The orcs may be sloppy, but they aren't ill-equiped.


Also, keep in mind that in Silm Film, Ungoliant never came to Nan Dungortheb, but created her descendants in the barren mountains to the north of the Ered Luin. It was there that Sauron found them, and recruited them for a raid on the lush lands of Beleriand. They attacked Doriath, including Menegroth itself, and were only driven back by the formation of the Girdle of Melian.

It was at that point, at the end of Season 3, that the spiders inhabited Nan Dungortheb...just before the rising of the sun.

So, it is possible that there are places in Nan Dungortheb that have never seen the light of the sun, but that would be a rare chance, not the whole place.
As for trees in a dark, shadowy place... it's shadowy on the ground. That doesn't mean that the tree canopy can't extend higher than the cobwebs, allowing the trees to get light while keeping the ground below shrouded in darkness. In fact...more trees= more shade cast.

I also return to the poisoned water. We are not told that this environment is dry, or has no water...rather, that there *is* water ...but you cannot safely drink it. So, perhaps stagnant water? Not a peat bog, but a swamp or marsh. The Dead Marshes, with their 'all dead, all rotting' description doesn't sound like a place where you'd want to drink the water. So, a dank, dark place, with a lot of stagnant water and dead vegetation might work better that a completely barren environment with no trees at all. Not a forest, either, though.