Beren's equipment

Haerangil said:
The rangers of Ithilien were not elves.They fought under quite similarly severe circumstances too, even if they were not THAT an extremely small unit.
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Yeap, but their point was not to show them as extremelly successfull - their aim was to be more of a nuissance to the enemy and to meet Frodo. None of Faramir's men is depicted as a hero (not even himself) while in Ithilien. Here we have to establish exceptional heros - and to do it quick.
 
Odola said:
But we had it already with Faramir in the ROTK context and archery is still a foremost elvish thing in Tolkien - no human can outdo the elves in it. So the "awesomes" of it has to be always limited for humans - like in the Legolas / Aragorn contrast in Moria in the movies.

From your movie clopis the first is good, Evoks rely on numbers which we do not have and the last one a very long set up - difficult to reset again.
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Yes the ewoks... but really only that rocks scene. I like the tripwire/rope trap,,the swinging logs, i think even the rocks could be used similarly by a smaller group,if well prepaired. Just imagine trolls instead of at/sts... i could see barahir killing big cretaures by setting such traps.
 
Odola said:
Yeap, but their point was not to show them as extremelly successfull - their aim was to be more of a nuissance to the enemy and to meet Frodo. None of Faramir's men is depicted as a hero (not even himself) while in Ithilien. Here we have to establish exceptional heros - and to do it quick.
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WHAT???

they were VERY efficient in that scene, a few dozen men destroy or at last scatter a whole enemy contingent by turning their own big beasts against them so they devastate their own lines! And it really is just one brief glimpse at one such ambush.
I agree they are not shown as individual heroes as they are masked and anonymous until Faramir lifts his mask, but so are barahirs men , quite anonymous , acting as a group.It is Beren the lone survivor who then begins to stand out as a hero character. And he isn't chivalric at all at first...
He pretty much assassinates Gorgol from behind at a feast!

I believe in both situations Tolkien intentionally showed war as ugly , unfair and dirty business.
 
Haerangil said:
WHAT???

they were VERY efficient in that scene, a few dozen men destroy or at last scatter a whole enemy contingent by turning their own big beasts against them so they devastate their own lines! And it really is just one brief glimpse at one such ambush.
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Most of the enemy flies or is scattered. Which is the purpose - disrupting the route to/from Mordor. But this is not clearing Ithilien from the enemy - which Faramir does not even attempt to do.

Haerangil said:
I agree they are not shown as individual heroes as they are masked and anonymous until Faramir lifts his mask, but so are barahirs men , quite anonymous , acting as a group.It is Beren the lone survivor who then begins to stand out as a hero character. And he isn't chivalric at all at first...
He pretty much assassinates Gorgol from behind at a feast!

I believe in both situations Tolkien intentionally showed war as ugly , unfair and dirty business.
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Yeap, but we have to establish Beren and his band as heros. Beren has no "ring denouncing" scene like Faramir does, Beren has to do it by fight. He has to be "special". And the fastest visial way to do it is to let him do something a little bit different from our random sample archery scenes already have plenty of in our story.
It seems contraproductive to let Beren and his band do something they by default can be only second-,best in as humans.
 
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Haerangil said:
Of course they need range a lot ! If they want to use the forests as effective cover they HAVE to rely on stealth and distance to their enemies!
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Javelins have another problem in the forest - their end is long and can get easily entagled,

with an atlatl one has the invisible end always under full control:


and amentum does not resolve that problem at all:

Stealth is good:
 
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Neither does Barahir attempt to clear Dorthonion.He knows pretty much he is fighting a lost cause, all of them know, and so knows Faramir.Of course he knows he cannot clear Ithilien with the few resources he has!

Doesn't convince me why they should prefer atlatls with light darts over bows if they have them. I do not see the advantage. I DO see some advantage of heavier javelins in context with armored enemies.And of course they still CAN be used even in dense forests, celts and germanic tribes did it so it seemingly did work, afaik none of them willingly switched to lighter darts and Atlatls.

I also do not understand why we should show Barahirs band as experts with Atlatls while avoiding to show them as superior marksmen with bows.What is the point of it?Men are always somewhat inferior to elves in these sorts of combat, that would include spears as well, atlatls or not!

That hero thing also doesn't convince me. Do we wish to show Barahirs guerilla war as realistic or do we wish to show them as great tragic heros? Does the element of tragedy really prevent dirty warfare and does the hero element really need them to appear as chivalric? I don't see that necessarily.
 
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Haerangil said:
Neither does Barahir attempt to clear Dorthonion.He knows pretty mich he is fighting a lost cause, all ofvthem know, and so knows Faramir.Of course he knows he cannot clear Ithilien with the few resources he has!
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Faramir is an outpost of Gondor. His aim is to disturb the enemy while the main battle is fought elsewhere. Barahir defends the only homeland he has ever had. Big difference.

Haerangil said:
Doesn't convince me why they should prefer atlatls with light darts over bows if they have them.
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Reason: Much much more heavy impact. Can bring a huge creature down very fast.

Given the nature of the human arm and the efficiency of ancient atlatls and bows, the
trend, if greater damaging force is required, is to use a heavier and slower projectile, but
if greater range is desired, or targets are small and agile, projectiles tend to be lighter and
faster.

Of course an arrow is enough to bring a human down. But for a troll, a big orc or a giant spider an atlatl is a much better choice. Javelins are problematic in use in a forest while atlatls are not.

Celts were and are post-Neolithic mixture of all 3 Europeans ancestral populations as such they have lost their hunter-gatherer lifestyle and technology. They are farmers and herders, not forest people. Celts build walled cities on hilltops. They minted coins. Celts fought on battlefields, used cavalery and chariots. They did not hunt monsters and ogres in the forests. They did not even hunt auerochs, wisents (European bison), reindeer or wild horses - compared to the hunters before them. At most Celts did hunt for red deer or wild boars at times or for fur animals. Their technology simply reflects their livestyle. For their purposes a simple bow and arrow was enough, and a spear for a bear hunt. Celts would be at a loss against a giant spider or a big orc for sure.

The advantage of arrows against atlatl darts is the same as the one between javelins and atlatl darts - they are easier to carry and one can take more of them with oneself at one time. But when you are hunting someting big in the forest, the atlatl is a nice compromise between the lighter bow and the stonger but more cumbersome javelin.

But still my main reason is still an artistic one: it looks good on screen and is refreshingly different. It serves our narrative by making it interesting by showing also the use of less familiar objects to visually stress the points we want to bring across in our story.
 
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Odola said:
Faramir is an outpost of Gondor. His aim is to disturb the enemy while the main battle is fought elsewhere. Barahir defends the only homeland he has ever had. Big difference.
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Barahir fights a lost cause, his homeland is already lost and overrun and he knows it! Best he can do is find revenge and buy southern Beleriand some time!

Odola said:
Reason: Much much more heavy impact. Can bring a huge creature down very fast.
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We're running circles now! Of course BOTH would be effective against un or lightly armoured orc scouts or spiders, or wild animals, but NOT against heavily armored orcs or thick hided trolls!

Odola said:
Of course an arrow is enough to bring a human down. But for a troll, a big orc or a giant spider an atlatl is a much better choice. Javelins are problematic in use in a forest while atlatls are not.
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Don't underestimate the many different forms of javelins!

Odola said:
Celts were and are post-Neolithic mixture of all 3 Europeans ancestral populations as such they have lost their hunter-gatherer lifestyle and technology. They are farmers and herders, not forest people. Celts build walled cities on hilltops. They minted coins. Celts fought on battlefields, used cavalery and chariots. They did not hunt monsters and ogres in the forests. They did not even hunt auerochs, wisents (European bison), reindeer or wild horses - compared to the hunters before them. At most Celts did hunt for red deer or wild boars at times or for fur animals. Their technology simply reflects their livestyle. For their purposes a simple bow and arrow was enough, and a spear for a bear hunt. Celts would be at a loss against a giant spider or a big orc for sure.
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Of course many of their lands , celtic and germanic, still were dominated by large forested areas.Of course they were farmers and had some larger central settlements and wide agricultural ateas of fields and for herds.The Beorians the same for sure, they are not originally a wood-culture like the Haladin! Barahirs band becomes a small group forced to live this way, as did celtic outlaws by the way.

Yet... celts were in serious disadvantage against romans, who had fewer troops but fought in formation, were all very well armored and armed and had superior tactics. Celts against orcs would have been the same odds, but i wasn't talking of Barahirs band as celts, they do not have celtic equipment.But they have similar battlegrounds like the historic celtic and germanic guerilla warfare!

Odola said:
The advantage of arrows against atlatl darts is the same as the one between javelins and atlatl darts - they are easier to carry and one can take more of them with oneself at one time. But when you are hunting someting big in the forest, the atlatl is a nice compromise between the lighter bow and the stonger but more cumbersome javelin.
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For deer, elk.Maybe. for boar... i doubt it, for armored Orc and Troll as well for sure.Needs strong impact, much force, or more tries, more missiles.

Odola said:
But still my main reason is still an artistic one: it looks good on screen and is refreshingly different. It serves our narrative by making it interesting by showing also the use of less familiar objects to visually stress the points we want to bring across in our story.
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Yeah! That i can accept. It looks fine! And different!

This read interesting:

 
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Haerangil said:
Barahir fights a lost cause, his homeland is already lost and overrun and he knows it! Best he can do is find revenge and buy southern Beleriand some time!
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Not in the beginning - otherwise they would not have started it. Barahir's bands wants to be effective, while Faramir has no real pressure to achieve more beyond just disturbing the enemy.

Haerangil said:
Don't underestimate the many different forms of javelins!
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Yes, but that is to complicated to show. Had we more time and an army of several hunderds, then I would have liked it too. Especially in open battlefield and with assumed carts bringing supplies.

Haerangil said:
Yet... celts were in serious disadvantage against romans, who had fewer troops but fought in formation, were all very well armored and armed and had superior tactics. Celts against orcs would have been the same odds, but i wasn't talking of Barahirs band as celts, they do not have celtic equipment.But they have similar battlegrounds like the historic celtic and germanic guerilla warfare!
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Never heard of Celts being good forests fighter. Germanic peoples yes, Celts were generalny more open battlefield people.

Haerangil said:
Yeah! That i can accept. It looks fine! And different!
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As we have no time to elaborate on Barahir's band attributies in our story and we want to convey to the viewer that the band does something special, this is the most effective fastest and visual way to make them stand out while staying believable in their context imho.
 
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No, I must clarify that the goal of Barahir's band is NOT to win back Dorthonion and drive the orcs from their land. They know they cannot. They know it is hopeless. Their goal is to rescue any people trapped in Dorthonion and bring them safely to South Beleriand. Harrying the orcs naturally happens, but no one thinks they can win the war they already lost!

They are moderately successful, at first. Once Thuingwethil becomes active there, that mission, too, is reaching the end of its effectiveness.

So the parallel to Faramir in Ithilien is a good one. And like Faramir's band, there are no elves around to 'show up' the mortals in these scenes or require them to do second best. They can be as competent as the plot demands.

But still my main reason is still an artistic one: it looks good on screen and is refreshingly different. It serves our narrative by making it interesting by showing also the use of less familiar objects to visually stress the points we want to bring across in our story.
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Yes, I understand your interest in portraying a fight scene with this less-common-on-film weapon. And there is probably room for the inclusion of an atlatl somewhere in Silm Film. I am not sure if this is the best place, though.
 
MithLuin said:
No, I must clarify that the goal of Barahir's band is NOT to win back Dorthonion and drive the orcs from their land. They know they cannot. They know it is hopeless. Their goal is to rescue any people trapped in Dorthonion and bring them safely to South Beleriand. Harrying the orcs naturally happens, but no one thinks they can win the war they already lost!

They are moderately successful, at first. Once Thuingwethil becomes active there, that mission, too, is reaching the end of its effectiveness.

So the parallel to Faramir in Ithilien is a good one. And like Faramir's band, there are no elves around to 'show up' the mortals in these scenes or require them to do second best. They can be as competent as the plot demands.
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Though aren't the refugees from Dorthonion already gone by the time the Band is slain?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Though aren't the refugees from Dorthonion already gone by the time the Band is slain?
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Yes, but they're not gone the whole time they're there. Episode 1 had a scene where the band rescued a small community. But yes, in Episode 2 we confirmed that either there are none left, or they're not able to be rescued.
 
MithLuin said:
No, I must clarify that the goal of Barahir's band is NOT to win back Dorthonion and drive the orcs from their land. They know they cannot. They know it is hopeless. Their goal is to rescue any people trapped in Dorthonion and bring them safely to South Beleriand. Harrying the orcs naturally happens, but no one thinks they can win the war they already lost!
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That is a more clear objective goal to achieve than what Faramir is doing already.

It the texts their objective is to be a sign of restitance against evil in their beloved homeland. Even if it is mostly symbolic - it is not just being a relatively minor nuissance.

MithLuin said:
They are moderately successful, at first. Once Thuingwethil becomes active there, that mission, too, is reaching the end of its effectiveness.
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No, that I have to object. This is lessening them. It the texts they are very successfull and the orcs fear them to degree to warrant special forces beind send to deal with a serious problem. Sauron just ignores Faramir's little band. Making Barahir's band "nothing special" imho goes directly against the spirit of the texts.

MithLuin said:
Yes, I understand your interest in portraying a fight scene with this less-common-on-film weapon. And there is probably room for the inclusion of an atlatl somewhere in Silm Film. I am not sure if this is the best place, though.
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Even if not in the scene itself, there are plenty of elves in the story and humans generally simply cannot be better archers then elves. So however competent we show them, we are always limited by this distinction having to be preserved when it comes to archery.

Having atlatl somehere else? O.k. But for what purpose - beyond making it interesting? Here it would serve a purpose of making the band visually "special" - set apart from other units we see plenty of in the whole of the story - which the story does not requires to that extent at other places of the narrative imho.
 
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Haerangil said:
Lucius Postumius could tell a story and most people fighting the alpine celts, the Bagaudae, the Caledonii and probably the irish Fianna!
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Alpine means mountains - not real forests. Generally the Celts loved pre-combat display, chariots and to make a huge personal show of their fights. Not really stealthy assassins.
 
It was back then a forested mountainous land, like southern scotland, like the irish hills...
All not exactly the same but you get the point.These specific tribes lived in the sub-alpine areas btw. Not the high mountains usually.I can see similarity to Dorthonion.Dorthonion is not Mirkwood.
 
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From "The Strategikon", attributed to the Emperor Maurice (reign 582-602):
"Dealing with the Slavs, the Antes, and the Like.
The nations of the Slavs and the Antes live in the same way and have the same customs... They live among nearly impenetrable forests, rivers, lakes, and marshes, and have made exits from their settlements branch out in many directions because of the dangers they might face... They live like bandits and love to carry out attacks against their enemies in densely wooded, narrow, and steep places. They make effective use of ambushes, sudden attacks, and raids, devising many different methods by night and by day... They are armed with short javelins, two to each man. Some also have nice-looking but unwieldy shields. In addition, they use wooden bows with short arrows smeared with a poisonous drug which is very effective."

The South Slavs of the Danube-area and the Balkans seems to have no problem with using javelins in heavily wooded areas, as long as the javelins were not to long. So I think Beren and his companions should be able to use them, along with bows. Poisonous arrows might be considered unethical by some.
 
Orcs use them...

Does poison work on orcs? Didn't the Woses use poison arrows and darts or does my memory betray me?
 
By the way, what are our decissions about Beren's sword, his general equipment, what he takes into Ered Gorgoroth, what he losses in Nan Dungortheb, what he receives in Doriath - from Luthien, Melian - anybody else?
 
Haerangil said:
This read interesting:

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Yeap, in all categories checked there the atlatl was a neat compromise between a spear - stong but cumbersone to use and difficult (limited in numer) to transport in a forest and a "primitive arrow". And - as the article states - an atlatl dart is capable to bring down "even the toughest game -- assuming it is in the effective range" - which said range is naturally limited in a forest anyway - due to all the trees standing around.

"No one of the three factors we looked at is an indicator of hunting effectiveness by itself. All the weapons listed have been used for killing, and all have proven themselves effective. Atlatl darts do not have as much kinetic energy or momentum as firearms, but have a better sectional density. They are higher in all three factors than arrows, and arrows are known to be very effective weapons. There is very little you can't bring down with a well-placed arrow.

Is an atlatl as powerful as a .30-06? No. It has less kinetic energy (force of impact) and less momentum (penetration). It doesn't have anywhere near the effective range and is much harder to aim. But for tens of thousands of years, it was the primary hunting weapon on earth. Dart points have been found in mammoth bones, and they have been tested on modern elephant carcasses with impressive results. While it may not be as effective as a rifle, it is certainly effective enough. Just how dead do you need your supper?"

Halstein said:
From "The Strategikon", attributed to the Emperor Maurice (reign 582-602):
"Dealing with the Slavs, the Antes, and the Like.
The nations of the Slavs and the Antes live in the same way and have the same customs... They live among nearly impenetrable forests, rivers, lakes, and marshes, and have made exits from their settlements branch out in many directions because of the dangers they might face... They live like bandits and love to carry out attacks against their enemies in densely wooded, narrow, and steep places. They make effective use of ambushes, sudden attacks, and raids, devising many different methods by night and by day... They are armed with short javelins, two to each man. Some also have nice-looking but unwieldy shields. In addition, they use wooden bows with short arrows smeared with a poisonous drug which is very effective."

The South Slavs of the Danube-area and the Balkans seems to have no problem with using javelins in heavily wooded areas, as long as the javelins were not to long. So I think Beren and his companions should be able to use them, along with bows. Poisonous arrows might be considered unethical by some.
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Great! Slavs. And Antes (ancient Ukrainians). You do know how to approach me from my week side 😀 Halstein. Slavs do have a long guerilla tradition - in contrary to the Celts. But here we have exactly the limitiation of numbers I've spoken about - "two to each man". Those javelins described seems to have been cerit/djerid/jerid/jereed-like: Djerid (weapon) - Wikipedia https://worcester.emuseum.com/internal/media/dispatcher/36543/resize:format=full;jsessionid=F7ED9951138AACF942832C0206101295
which the Slavs have used historically also. [Here short old very low quality video showing and explaining a Slavic jerid - regrettably only in Polish - build, wood (hazel or ash), length, weighting and the way to throw it Dziryt budowa - YouTube - sorry, this was the best I could find].

Beyond that generally the woods South of the Danube tend not to be very dense. "densely wooded, narrow, and steep places" seems more like ravines than real woods.

And as : "Short bows naturally have shorter draw lengths than long bows" (Short Bow Vs. Long Bow (sportsrec.com) ) and "Arrow length refers to draw length plus about 2 inches. " (Draw Length vs Arrow Length Explained - Archery for Beginners ) the use of "short arrows" does exclude the use of a longbow - sorry Haerangil - at least in this reported case - which makes sense for a wooded area - where the possible range is naturally limited by the trees anyway. And as I've stated before, even a short arrow is enough to bring down a human, but not necessary an orc, who are generally more robust.

But I am all for the use of forged metal jerids in Dorthonion - but on the orcs' part. Orcs are strong enough to carry bundles of those on their shoulders. And metal jerids do also look very nice - even when imagined covered in Blackspeech runes.
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Haerangil said:
Orcs use them...

Does poison work on orcs? Didn't the Woses use poison arrows and darts or does my memory betray me?
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No idea. Do not know if poison does work on elves - if not, orcs might have some resistance to them - or maybe not - as they are corrupted. But orcs could have been immunised to the poisons of Angband during their warrior training.

I am sure Angband has a research bio lab where all kinds of poisons and pestillences are invented, lead by some fallen Maiar of Estë and Irmo.
 
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