Beren's equipment

[Haerangil]

It is an old sign of mourning when done to oneself willingly. It is quite dramatic and visible from afar. It is a self-humilation to show one's current situation in society as a mourning person with its tabus and special rights.

In hinduism and buddhism i believe.It is a symbol for leaving behind or rejecting worldly desires. I don't see Beren quite there...

If i look for indian barrow burial customs i read things like putting up a special looking stone, drinking to the journey of the deceased, or leaving a bowl of food for him to strengthen him for the journey. Some of that i think could fit for a culture like the Edain...

 

[Odola]

In hinduism and buddhism i believe.It is a symbol for leaving behind or rejecting worldly desires. I don't see Beren quite there...

If i look for indian barrow burial customs i read things like putting up a special looking stone, drinking to the journey of the deceased, or leving a biwl of food for him to strengthen him for the journey. Some of that i think could fit for a culture like the Edain...

Drinking and grave goods - ok - quite common. What about the lament? Blood letting offerings? Orientation of the body, its position? Red ochre powder?

 

[Haerangil]

All good ideas, let's take some time to think about the possible symbolisms behind these, if we'd want them or rather not.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Who happens to get his ass kicked by everything after he winds up in Doriath.

That is indeed what the book says.

 

[Haerangil]

That is indeed what the book says.

I think he did quite okay against two feanorian brothers, a company of Orcs, several werewolves and even an army of Dwarves. He gets beat by Sauron himself and Carcharoth... well, they both are tough endbosses, who are the few to beat them?

 

[Odola]

I think he did quite okay against two feanorian brothers, a company of Orcs, several werewolves and even an army of Dwarves. He gets beat by Sauron himself and Carcharoth... well, they both are tough endbosses, who are the few to beat them?

There even were some suggestions before (by the Tolkien Profesor, if I do remember correctly) to leave even Beren's Leap out. But this would leave some plot holes in the story - like Curufin's knife and such.

 

[Odola]

Ok.

So now here we reduced the question marks - if you object to any states of any those items here, please state that and propose a better way to deal with the item in question.

Item

band time

revenge

leaving Dorthonion

Doriath alone

Doriath with Luthien

Thingol's court

leaving Doriath

Nargothrond

orcs ambush

Tol-in-Gaurhoth

Beren's Leap

recovery in Brethil

Angband

Doriath

Ossiriand

ultimate death

Barahir's Hand

Barahir

gained

buried

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

Barahir's Ring

Barahir

gained

there

there

there

there

there

there

there

?

there

there

there

there

there

passed on to Dior

Bregor's Bow

Barahir

gained

there

there

there

there

there

there

there

?

there

there

there

there

there

passed on to Dior

Curufin's Coat of Mail

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

gained

there

there

?

?

?

Grey Orc Helmet

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

gained

lost

n

n

n

n

n

n

grey dwarven hauberk

Barahir

Barahir

buried?

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

Hide of Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

gained

there

there

there

discarded

n

n

Horn of Brethil

Belegund

Belegund

broken/buried?

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

Knife (Angrist)

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

gained

there

broken

n

n

n

great orcish spear

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

gained

lost

n

n

n

n

n

n

Kitchen-Knife of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

Kitchen of Angband

gained

discarded

n

n

Sword (Dagmor)

Beren

Beren

Beren

lost in Nan Dungortheb?

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

wooden club

Beren

Beren

discarded

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

 

[MithLuin]

The knife from Tevildo's kitchen is an element of the story from the Tale of Tinuviel (in Lost Tales), and there is no reason to include this item in Silm Film. The later version of this story element is Angrist, which we have been very careful to incorporate. So, my recommendation would be to delete that row.

The following items are definitely included in the Silm Film adaptation:

Barahir's hand (not really sure why this item is on this list?)
Ring of Barahir
Bregor's bow
Hide of Draugluin
Horn of Brethil
Angrist (knife)
Dagmor (sword)

While there may certainly be room for additional items to include in the story, I would put question marks ❓ ❓ on the other items for now - they are tentative suggestions.

There even were some suggestions before (by the Tolkien Profesor, if I do remember correctly) to leave even Beren's Leap out. But this would leave some plot holes in the story - like Curufin's knife and such.

To be fair, what he said was that he was willing to consider simplifying (and therefore changing) that part of the story if we found ourselves too pressed for time in the end of the story, which is naturally the more important material. In other words, if it were a question of doing justice to the leap of Beren or Lúthien's song in Mandos, then...clear choice. In the end, we fit in both, and decided to reduce screen time for the wedding instead.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

The knife from Tevildo's kitchen is an element of the story from the Tale of Tinuviel (in Lost Tales), and there is no reason to include this item in Silm Film. The later version of this story element is Angrist, which we have been very careful to incorporate. So, my recommendation would be to delete that row.

The following items are definitely included in the Silm Film adaptation:

Barahir's hand (not really sure why this item is on this list?)
Ring of Barahir
Bregor's bow
Hide of Draugluin
Horn of Brethil
Angrist (knife)
Dagmor (sword)

While there may certainly be room for additional items to include in the story, I would put question marks ❓ ❓ on the other items for now - they are tentative suggestions.



To be fair, what he said was that he was willing to consider simplifying (and therefore changing) that part of the story if we found ourselves too pressed for time in the end of the story, which is naturally the more important material. In other words, if it were a question of doing justice to the leap of Beren or Lúthien's song in Mandos, then...clear choice. In the end, we fit in both, and decided to reduce screen time for the wedding instead.

As far as why Barahir's hand would be on the list would be a question of whether or not Beren would lug his father's hand around for more than it took to reclaim the Ring. Of course he could re-bury the hand near his father's cairn.

 

[MithLuin]

Considering he reclaims it in the end of one scene, and visits his father's grave in the very next scene we see him, both in the same episode, there is no particular need to keep track of the whereabouts of Barahir's hand. Like, yes, Gorgol took it. But it is not part of Beren's 'gear'!

 

[Haerangil]

Did Gorgol wear it as a trophy? Like some necklace, or on his belt or whatever ,or did he keep it in some nice small treasure chest?

 

[MithLuin]

At the level of script outline, we merely specify that Gorgol has it, and is discussing the ring (and other spoils?) with a few of his cohorts. The detail of how he is carrying it around (trophy, concealed, etc), will be specified in the actual script. The importance is that the audience will know that Beren knows that Gorgol killed his father, despite not witnessing the massacre. The hand (and ring) are the proof of guilt (along with his boasting words in the Lay).

 

[Odola]

The knife from Tevildo's kitchen is an element of the story from the Tale of Tinuviel (in Lost Tales), and there is no reason to include this item in Silm Film. The later version of this story element is Angrist, which we have been very careful to incorporate. So, my recommendation would be to delete that row.

O.K. But still Beren does need a weapon after Angrist breaks and having him just grab any knife on his way out from Angband does make some sense. And the way out via the kitchen makes as much sense as any other.

The following items are definitely included in the Silm Film adaptation:

Barahir's hand (not really sure why this item is on this list?)
Ring of Barahir
Bregor's bow
Hide of Draugluin
Horn of Brethil
Angrist (knife)
Dagmor (sword)

While there may certainly be room for additional items to include in the story, I would put question marks ❓ ❓ on the other items for now - they are tentative suggestions.

Ok.

Item

certain

band time

revenge

leaving Dorthonion

Doriath alone

Doriath with Luthien

Thingol's court

leaving Doriath

Nargothrond

orcs ambush

Tol-in-Gaurhoth

Beren's Leap

recovery in Brethil

Angband

Doriath

Ossiriand

ultimate death

Ring of Barahir

!

Barahir

gained

there

there

there

there

there

there

there

?

there

there

there

there

there

passed on to Dior

Bregor's Bow

!

Barahir

gained

there

there

there

there

there

there

there

?

there

there

there

there

there

passed on to Dior

Curufin's Coat of Mail

?

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

gained

there

there

?

?

?

Grey Orc Helmet

?

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

gained

lost

n

n

n

n

n

n

grey dwarven hauberk

?

Barahir

Barahir

buried?

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

Hide of Draugluin

!

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

Draugluin

gained

there

there

there

discarded

n

n

Horn of Brethil

!

Belegund

Belegund

broken/buried?

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

Knife (Angrist)

!

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

Curufin

gained

there

broken

n

n

n

great orcish spear

?

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

orc

gained

lost

n

n

n

n

n

n

Sword (Dagmor)

!

Beren

Beren

Beren

lost in Nan Dungortheb?

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

wooden club

?

Beren

Beren

discarded

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

n

So, now the main the question is: What happens to the Ring of Barahir and Bregor's Bow while Beren is in Sauron's prison?
The ring might have been left on Beren, if it is dirty enough not to be recognized by the orcs as valuable. Maybe disguised in dried clay to make it look like some stone and put into Beren's equipment when he pretends to be an orc? (as Beren already does knows orcs do like the ring (Gorgol did)).

What about the bow - has Beren left it in Luthien's care before he left? Would make little sense. Or maybe in Nargothrond before Beren replaces it with orcish stuff? So that later Orodreth or Gil-Galad can return it Beren/Dior/Elwing/Elros?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Did Gorgol wear it as a trophy? Like some necklace, or on his belt or whatever ,or did he keep it in some nice small treasure chest?

Likely a bag; could possibly be worn on the hip.

 

[kanji_d]

We see Gorgol with the hand exactly once, in the teaser for Episode 3. In the script, he simply holds it up, takes the ring off of it to comment on that, and then Beren kills him. Then Beren leaves it on Barahir's grave, where it presumably stays for the rest of the series.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

We see Gorgol with the hand exactly once, in the teaser for Episode 3. In the script, he simply holds it up, takes the ring off of it to comment on that, and then Beren kills him. Then Beren leaves it on Barahir's grave, where it presumably stays for the rest of the series.

Ah well; I guess no chance for a duel, no chance for Beren to beat someone in combat since he gets beaten by everything else he comes across?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Ah well; I guess no chance for a duel, no chance for Beren to beat someone in combat since he gets beaten by everything else he comes across?

If you mean a classic movie duel, I doubt Beren would survive the aftermath of a prolonged encounter with a bunch of other Orcs waiting in the wings. It's also not very ... outlawy.

And by everyone, I suppose you mean everyone but the C-bros.

The only single combat he engages with that I can think of is a monstrous spider and a monstrous werewolf hopped on on Silmaril magic. Those are hardly fair.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

If you mean a classic movie duel, I doubt Beren would survive the aftermath of a prolonged encounter with a bunch of other Orcs waiting in the wings. It's also not very ... outlawy.

And by everyone, I suppose you mean everyone but the C-bros.

The only single combat he engages with that I can think of is a monstrous spider and a monstrous werewolf hopped on on Silmaril magic. Those are hardly fair.

He doesn't really beat them either; he tackles Curufin, Huan turns on Celegorm, Beren takes Curufin's gear, Curufin gets on Celegorm's horse and shoots Beren.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

He doesn't really beat them either; he tackles Curufin, Huan turns on Celegorm, Beren takes Curufin's gear, Curufin gets on Celegorm's horse and shoots Beren.

Curufin is absolutely beaten.

 

[Odola]

Curufin is absolutely beaten.

As we do not speak about equipment itself any longer here I will allow myself a technical question - we have gone though Beren's equipment here - the conclusion we came to - and which was not opposed - is that Beren has to have Bregor's Bow with him when leaving Doriath and in Nargothrond - where he should leave it in Orodreth's care before leaving for former Tol-Sirion. Will this be incorporated in the scrip outline or how will our conclusion here affect the script writing process?