Concerns about season 5

[Rhiannon]

When I suggested the rebuilding of Barad-dur, I didn't mean an entire frame story about Sauron but rather a story about something else where the discovery that it is rebuilt is a disturbing and frightening note at the end.

I don't think we should begin the Aragorn-Arwen story this season. I think it too perfectly parallels Beren and Luthien's story from beginning to end to be used for anything else.

 

[Haakon]

It parallels their story but really only in a rather long perspective. The Beren and Luthien story is so much more intense and moves to its conclusion much quicker. As I said though, I do think we should tell part of the Arwen-Aragorn story in the season six frame. So I agree with you, only perhaps not to 100%.
Season five will focus on differences between Men and Elves, and it will also feature the tragic love story of Andreth. That mirrors the problems Aragorn and Arwen face very much. We will also have Aredhel and Eöl presenting a different, darker relationship story, creating yet another foil. I think no other frame theme could be as good as Aragorn meeting Arwen this season, just as the season after. It would be a waste going to Bilbo, for example.

 

[MithLuin]

Hmmm, yes, there are some interesting possibilities. I do think that whatever we choose should highlight mortality in some way.

So far, our frame stories have been:

Season 1: (TA 2941-42) Ten-year old Estel, growing up in Rivendell, is taught the history of the world by Elrond. His mother Gilraen strives to make certain her son is raised as a Man, not an Elf. (The Hobbit happens this year.)​

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Season 2: (~TA 2943-5) Arwen, visiting her grandparents in Lothlórien, is saddened by a friend's decision to sail West. She ponders the place of Elves in Arda - Valinor or Endorë?​

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Season 3: (TA 2947) Teenage Estel rebelliously leaves Rivendell without permission and joins the Dúnedain, who are involved in fighting off an incursion of wolves during a harsh winter. Estel's rivalry with Halbarad's son costs Hamilcar his life, and Estel returns to Rivendell with the sons of Elrond.​

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Season 4: (TA 2948) Bilbo travels with Gandalf and Balin to revisit Dale and the Lonely Mountain for the 7 year commemoration of the Battle of Five Armies. Tensions between Dwarves and Elves threaten to mar the celebration, but resolution of an old grudge helps to heal some of the mistrust.​

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Season 5: (TA 2949-2950) ???​

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Season 6: (TA 2951) 20-year-old Estel learns that he is the heir of the chieftain of the Dunedain, descended from Isildur and Elros and the heroes of old. Arwen returns to Rivendell and meets Aragorn, who falls in love with her. Elrond informs Aragorn that he will not marry until he has achieved his destined goal - reclaiming the throne of Gondor.​

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Season 7: ???​

I definitely do see a value to breaking up the Season 6 Frame material. We could have the Season 5 portion focus on Estel learning that he is Aragorn, heir of the heroes of old, and tie that in to the destiny of Men in Middle-earth. He can revisit the Dúnedain. No appearance of Arwen until Season 6 (if we'd like). Or tie in the meeting with Arwen to the Andreth/Aegnor bit, as that is late in Season 5.

I think we'll find that the Aragorn and Arwen story doesn't actually parallel the Beren and Lúthien story very closely at all Aragorn falls in love; Arwen doesn't. She pretty much views Aragorn as a young kid at this point. The closest the parallel comes is the part where Elrond says 'quest first, then marriage'. But that's late in the Aragorn/Arwen in Rivendell story, and early in the Beren/Lúthien story. The point in the story where they actually get engaged (50 year old Aragorn visiting Lothlórien) is the part that makes it look most like Beren/Lúthien.....and Aragorn very certainly does all of his 'Thorongil' questing alone and without Arwen before we get there.

And no talking dog

So, yes, while we have talked about having the '20 year old Aragorn meets Arwen in Rivendell' story be the Frame for Season 6, it's probably actually going to be rather challenging to make that happen! It was suggested that his mother Gilraen could be using Beren/Lúthien as a cautionary tale, and Aragorn goes ahead and finds it inspiring.

So...if we don't return to Aragorn right now, what are our other options?

We could have a Shire-centric Frame. Bilbo was our main character of the last frame, and we left him journeying through Mirkwood on his way home to the Shire. We could start off with him revisiting Rivendell, and then going on back to Bag End. What could happen in the Shire to mirror the stories of Men? Well, probably births and deaths and marriages It's too early to get the births of Frodo, Sam, Merry, or Pippin, but we can select events based on the Hobbit family trees.

We're looking at SR 1349-50, roughly. That's well about before Lotho is born...so perhaps the wedding of Otho and Lobelia is in order? SR 1360 is the death of the two youngest children of the Old Took (Mirabella [100] and Isengar [98]), which would be great for a story of mortality and generations...but is alas 10 years too late. Donnamira dies in 1348 (she is of course Bilbo's aunt). Merry's father Saradoc Brandybuck is 10 years old; Frodo's mother Primula is 30 (so almost of age, but too young to get married, most likely). Sam's family tree doesn't seem to have anything in particular happening in 1349-50, but his father is likely a gardener at Bag End now.

So, yeah, I don't have a storyline picked out or anything, but I would at least like to consider 'the lives of Hobbits in the Shire' as the Season 5 frame. It'll be challenging to come up with the Dagor Bragollach parallel, that's for sure!

 

[Octoburn]

I don't think that we should use Bilbo again, because being away from B&L for two seasons before focusing on them again could be counterintuitive.

We could either take their two stories, and still have them separate, but do them both this season, have an arc for both of them that does not involve the other.

Or, we could do something a bit abstract, and do it from her perspective in S5, then from his in S5. I don't think that would work as well, personally.

I think another prominent theme this season is separation. Death is a type of separation, but there's also the physical separation of Aredhel from Turgon and Gondolin, the Feanorians during/after the Bragollach, Aegnor and Andreth, etc.

So if we found some stories to tell about Aragorn and Arwen (before they meet, still) that deal with separation, both physical and metaphysical, we could be onto something.

 

[MithLuin]

It's true if we followed our model of 'Aragorn on, Aragorn off, Aragorn on, Aragorn off....' Season 5 would be time for the Aragorn story to return.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I don't think that we should use Bilbo again, because being away from B&L for two seasons before focusing on them again could be counterintuitive.

We could either take their two stories, and still have them separate, but do them both this season, have an arc for both of them that does not involve the other.

Or, we could do something a bit abstract, and do it from her perspective in S5, then from his in S5. I don't think that would work as well, personally.

I think another prominent theme this season is separation. Death is a type of separation, but there's also the physical separation of Aredhel from Turgon and Gondolin, the Feanorians during/after the Bragollach, Aegnor and Andreth, etc.

So if we found some stories to tell about Aragorn and Arwen (before they meet, still) that deal with separation, both physical and metaphysical, we could be onto something.

Separation is something I’ve had in mind, which is why I had suggested the last meeting of the White Council.

 

[Haakon]

I still think we should make it a double season frame but an alternative could be Aragorn this season and Arwen in s6. OR the other way around - Arwen-centric this season and Aragorn in s6. (But that would mean having to deal with Estel learning of his identity in a non subjective way, which would be a tough one).

 

[Haakon]

I still think we should make it a double season frame but an alternative could be Aragorn this season and Arwen in s6. OR the other way around - Arwen-centric this season and Aragorn in s6. (But that would mean having to deal with Estel learning of his identity in a non subjective way, which would be a tough one).

OR we do an Arwen season 5 and then Elrond tells Estel about his identity (plus Aragorn meets Arwen) in s6.

 

[Rhiannon]

I think the way we should handle the Aragorn and Arwen story as the frame for Season 6 is something like the following:

Estel learns he is Aragorn and receives the Ring of Barahir and Shards of Narsil -> Barahir slain and Beren recovers the Ring of Barahir from the Orcs

Aragorn singing the Lay of Leithian and sees Arwen, calls her "Tinuviel" -> Beren sees Luthien, calls her "Tinuviel"

Aragorn tells Gilraen about Arwen, Gilraen says mortals should not wed Elves -> Beren wanders around Doriath, seeking Luthien

Elrond tells Aragorn that Arwen is above him and Aragorn resolves to go into the wild -> Thingol tells Beren to bring him a Silmaril

Aragorn and Gandalf become friends -> Finrod helps Beren

Aragorn's various adventures with the Rohirrim, in Gondor, and in the South and East -> The other stuff Beren and Luthien do

Aragorn returns to Rivendell, Aragorn and Arwen betrothed -> Beren and Luthien return with Silmaril and are married in Doriath

Elrond says Arwen will not give up her immortality for anyone less than the King of Gondor and Arnor -> Luthien becomes mortal

The events are not all exact parallels, but I don't think they need to be as long as they are thematically connected, and I think it will be interesting to show the stories side-by-side to illustrate that the tale of Aragorn and Arwen is not an exact duplicate of the tale of Beren and Luthien. Also, I think it works better for Aragorn to learn of his heritage after the Dagor Bragollach has happened in the main story because the Ring of Barahir and Narsil will then have passed to the hands of Aragorn's ancestors. Also, I think the biggest problem with paralleling Aragorn and Arwen with Aegnor and Andreth is that a lot of viewers will know that Aragorn and Arwen eventually do end up together.

This frame will happen over a larger span of time than the previous frame stories, but I do not think that will be a problem. I think it will be nice to move a bit forward in time in the Third Age to a point when more of the familiar characters from LOTR are alive, and if we really want some adventures of Thorongil to be a later frame, I do not think going back in time to do that would be too much of a problem.

We could have a Shire-centric Frame. Bilbo was our main character of the last frame, and we left him journeying through Mirkwood on his way home to the Shire. We could start off with him revisiting Rivendell, and then going on back to Bag End. What could happen in the Shire to mirror the stories of Men? Well, probably births and deaths and marriages It's too early to get the births of Frodo, Sam, Merry, or Pippin, but we can select events based on the Hobbit family trees.

We're looking at SR 1349-50, roughly. That's well about before Lotho is born...so perhaps the wedding of Otho and Lobelia is in order? SR 1360 is the death of the two youngest children of the Old Took (Mirabella [100] and Isengar [98]), which would be great for a story of mortality and generations...but is alas 10 years too late. Donnamira dies in 1348 (she is of course Bilbo's aunt). Merry's father Saradoc Brandybuck is 10 years old; Frodo's mother Primula is 30 (so almost of age, but too young to get married, most likely). Sam's family tree doesn't seem to have anything in particular happening in 1349-50, but his father is likely a gardener at Bag End now.

So, yeah, I don't have a storyline picked out or anything, but I would at least like to consider 'the lives of Hobbits in the Shire' as the Season 5 frame. It'll be challenging to come up with the Dagor Bragollach parallel, that's for sure!

If we do a Shire frame, we could continue following Bilbo and have him interacting with Elves in the Shire as he continues to gather stories of the Elder Days. By contrasting Bilbo with the other Hobbits, we could demonstrate how spending time around and learning from Elves makes him greater, like what happens to the Edain. We might also parallel the departure of the group of Men stirred by Bereg and fake Amalch back into Eriador with some Hobbits' skepticism and dislike for the things Bilbo believes in.

What the Shire frame does not seem to have is a good parallel to the Andreth and Aegnor story. Maybe we could solve this by inventing a love interest for Bilbo. Bilbo, of course, does not ever marry, but maybe there could be a Hobbit woman, parallel to Andreth, who shows some interest in him that Bilbo, parallel to Aegnor, does not reciprocate because this Hobbit woman has no taste for adventure or stories about Elves. I am not really in favor of this, but I think it could be done without being too silly.

The Dagor Bragollach parallel could be something to do with the Sackville-Bagginses, or it could be Bilbo receiving news from Gandalf or Dwarves who visit the Shire of dark things like reoccupation of Dol Guldur or the rebuilding of Barad-dur.

I don't think that we should use Bilbo again, because being away from B&L for two seasons before focusing on them again could be counterintuitive.

We could either take their two stories, and still have them separate, but do them both this season, have an arc for both of them that does not involve the other.

Or, we could do something a bit abstract, and do it from her perspective in S5, then from his in S5. I don't think that would work as well, personally.

I think another prominent theme this season is separation. Death is a type of separation, but there's also the physical separation of Aredhel from Turgon and Gondolin, the Feanorians during/after the Bragollach, Aegnor and Andreth, etc.

So if we found some stories to tell about Aragorn and Arwen (before they meet, still) that deal with separation, both physical and metaphysical, we could be onto something.

If we do go back to Aragorn or Arwen for the Season 5 frame, I would rather it be Arwen. Arwen pretty much stays in Lothlorien during this time, but we could certainly come up with more things for her to do. Having Arwen interacting with Men in some way that deals with the theme of mortality would both parallel the main story of Season 5 and foreshadow the frame of Season 6. Lothlorien is close enough to Dol Guldur that the Nazgul presence there could be used in some plot about the growing shadow.

Separation is something I’ve had in mind, which is why I had suggested the last meeting of the White Council.

The last meeting of the White Council takes place in 2953, which is after Aragorn and Arwen meet; however, if we do this, I do not think it would be a problem to jump a little forward in time then go back to 2952 for Aragorn and Arwen to meet next season. I think the problem with this is that there needs to be more story than just the council. We do not want thirteen episodes in which the frame is just people talking. However, we could tell a story about Ganadalf travelling around and gathering information about Sauron's growing power. This would also allow us to show the differences between Men and Elves, as Gandalf would presumably visit both. If Gandalf visits Rohan and Gondor, we could take the opportunity to set up some of the characters Thorongil will later meet.

Another possibility would be a completely Gondor-centric frame, also to set up Thorongil's later adventures there. Denethor would be in his early twenties, and Thengel would be living in Gondor until 2953.

 

[Haakon]

I can see a season 5 frame focusing on Arwen. I don't think I'm sure she has to stay in Lothlorien all the time. We could have her depart for Rivendell (and meet Aragorn there the season after). She could do a few things on the way, make a couple of stops. She could go along with Galadriel for a while; Galadriel could go to a White Council meeting. I know that the last meeting they have is a couple of years later, but would it be stretching things too far to say that they have a meeting also in 2951? Do we know for certain that they don't meet more often? They could want to meet because they find out that construction on Barad-Dûr has begun and Nazgûl have reoccupied Dol Guldur. It would not be the last meeting, but it would be an opportunity to show Isengard before it is fortified.
Or Arwen could meet Radagast perhaps, or Treebeard. Last time we saw her, she had become convinced that she had a purpose in Middle-earth, but she didn't know what it was.
She could also meet up with her brothers, it’s always fun to include them.

 

[Octoburn]

If we do go back to Aragorn or Arwen for the Season 5 frame, I would rather it be Arwen. Arwen pretty much stays in Lothlorien during this time, but we could certainly come up with more things for her to do. Having Arwen interacting with Men in some way that deals with the theme of mortality would both parallel the main story of Season 5 and foreshadow the frame of Season 6. Lothlorien is close enough to Dol Guldur that the Nazgul presence there could be used in some plot about the growing shadow.

I could get behind that, 100%. Anything to do with Dol Guldur could be used in the episodes to parallel the Bragollach.

I'll probably get stabbed in the face for this, but could we have a subplot of Arwen having suitors before she meets Aragorn? I mean, she's like 3000 years old, and she's said to be an image of the most beautiful elf to ever live. Surely she has had other elven princes approach her before?

The last meeting of the White Council takes place in 2953, which is after Aragorn and Arwen meet; however, if we do this, I do not think it would be a problem to jump a little forward in time then go back to 2952 for Aragorn and Arwen to meet next season. I think the problem with this is that there needs to be more story than just the council. We do not want thirteen episodes in which the frame is just people talking. However, we could tell a story about Ganadalf travelling around and gathering information about Sauron's growing power. This would also allow us to show the differences between Men and Elves, as Gandalf would presumably visit both. If Gandalf visits Rohan and Gondor, we could take the opportunity to set up some of the characters Thorongil will later meet.

Another possibility would be a completely Gondor-centric frame, also to set up Thorongil's later adventures there. Denethor would be in his early twenties, and Thengel would be living in Gondor until 2953.

If we use the Arwen/Lorien/Dol Guldur for the last eps of S5, it would fit, I think, if we had the White council frame parallel the Nirnaeth at the end of s6. I know it would be disjointed from the frame of the B&L episodes, but no more than the Nirnaeth is disjointed from the B&L episodes.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I could get behind that, 100%. Anything to do with Dol Guldur could be used in the episodes to parallel the Bragollach.

I'll probably get stabbed in the face for this, but could we have a subplot of Arwen having suitors before she meets Aragorn? I mean, she's like 3000 years old, and she's said to be an image of the most beautiful elf to ever live. Surely she has had other elven princes approach her before?


If we use the Arwen/Lorien/Dol Guldur for the last eps of S5, it would fit, I think, if we had the White council frame parallel the Nirnaeth at the end of s6. I know it would be disjointed from the frame of the B&L episodes, but no more than the Nirnaeth is disjointed from the B&L episodes.

What elven princes are there left to woo Arwen?

 

[Octoburn]

What elven princes are there left to woo Arwen?

Legoas.

Sorry, had a Peter Jackson moment.

Like basically all of the stuff in the frames so far, he would have to be invented. Again, it's just an idea.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I can see a season 5 frame focusing on Arwen. I don't think I'm sure she has to stay in Lothlorien all the time. We could have her depart for Rivendell (and meet Aragorn there the season after). She could do a few things on the way, make a couple of stops. She could go along with Galadriel for a while; Galadriel could go to a White Council meeting. I know that the last meeting they have is a couple of years later, but would it be stretching things too far to say that they have a meeting also in 2951? Do we know for certain that they don't meet more often? They could want to meet because they find out that construction on Barad-Dûr has begun and Nazgûl have reoccupied Dol Guldur. It would not be the last meeting, but it would be an opportunity to show Isengard before it is fortified.
Or Arwen could meet Radagast perhaps, or Treebeard. Last time we saw her, she had become convinced that she had a purpose in Middle-earth, but she didn't know what it was.
She could also meet up with her brothers, it’s always fun to include them.

What if she is travelling through the lands of men. The Rohirrim, for example.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

What if she is travelling through the lands of men. The Rohirrim, for example.

Not just there obviously, but there are a few human cultures on the road.

 

[Haakon]

What if she is travelling through the lands of men. The Rohirrim, for example.

Yeah why not? Perhaps along with her brothers?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

The reason I like this is that it gives us a counterpoint to the burgeoning relationship between Elves and Men. It kind of hints at how that will go. It also sets up the Elvish princess who will fall in love with a human.

 

[amysrevenge]

What elven princes are there left to woo Arwen?

It also doesn't really work that way with Elves, from what we've seen. There isn't a lot of "wooing". There aren't any one-way attractions that don't end in tragedy.

 

[Octoburn]

What about the Beornings instead? Rohan is kind of a long way out of the way, and she could run into Beornings on paths around the area, since they helped in keeping those areas safe.

 

[Octoburn]

It also doesn't really work that way with Elves, from what we've seen. There isn't a lot of "wooing". There aren't any one-way attractions that don't end in tragedy.

To be fair, there aren't a lot of two-way attractions that don't end in tragedy, either.