Concerns About Season Four

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Thank you so much for compiling that list! The meeting/romance/marriage between Celeborn and Galadriel will be an early event in Season 4. In our version of the story, he is an elf of Doriath, and he is 'currently' in the north with Círdan at the end of Season 3. So, we will need them to meet (and marry) early in Season 4, likely by the Feast of Reuniting. Certainly before Finrod visits her in Doriath in 50-52.

Likewise, we have no intention of depicting the Athrabeth on screen, but we *do* want to show the (failed) romance between Aegnor and Andreth. For that reason, it is very important that all Noldor marriages/births happen well before that time, so it looks as though Aegnor is very much justified in his decision. The only exception we are allowed is Aredhel, because her marriage should seem unnatural for all sorts of reasons.

This should not pose too much of a problem - Orodreth was born in Valinor, regardless of whether he's Angrod's son or younger brother. Celebrimbor and Idril are likewise already born before the sun rises. What matters will be the birth of Gil-galad (regardless of whose kid he is) and the birth of Finduilas (again, regardless of whether or not she has a brother or where her father falls on the family tree). Even if there is a Sindar mother involved, the fact that the father is a prince of the Noldor makes the situation completely analogous to Aegnor. If Gil-galad is born *after* we show Aegnor reject Andreth...we'll have problems. And the 'sending him to the Havens' storyline works best if he's young when he goes. The real issue here is that Tolkien never really integrated Gil-galad into the stories of the First Age, so he doesn't fit. But he has to be born before his parents die off! So, yeah, 'birth of Gil-galad' will likely need to be placed somewhere in this timeframe.
 

cellardur

Active Member
Thank you so much for compiling that list! The meeting/romance/marriage between Celeborn and Galadriel will be an early event in Season 4. In our version of the story, he is an elf of Doriath, and he is 'currently' in the north with Círdan at the end of Season 3. So, we will need them to meet (and marry) early in Season 4, likely by the Feast of Reuniting. Certainly before Finrod visits her in Doriath in 50-52.

Likewise, we have no intention of depicting the Athrabeth on screen, but we *do* want to show the (failed) romance between Aegnor and Andreth. For that reason, it is very important that all Noldor marriages/births happen well before that time, so it looks as though Aegnor is very much justified in his decision. The only exception we are allowed is Aredhel, because her marriage should seem unnatural for all sorts of reasons.

This should not pose too much of a problem - Orodreth was born in Valinor, regardless of whether he's Angrod's son or younger brother. Celebrimbor and Idril are likewise already born before the sun rises. What matters will be the birth of Gil-galad (regardless of whose kid he is) and the birth of Finduilas (again, regardless of whether or not she has a brother or where her father falls on the family tree). Even if there is a Sindar mother involved, the fact that the father is a prince of the Noldor makes the situation completely analogous to Aegnor. If Gil-galad is born *after* we show Aegnor reject Andreth...we'll have problems. And the 'sending him to the Havens' storyline works best if he's young when he goes. The real issue here is that Tolkien never really integrated Gil-galad into the stories of the First Age, so he doesn't fit. But he has to be born before his parents die off! So, yeah, 'birth of Gil-galad' will likely need to be placed somewhere in this timeframe.
I think we can stress that Aegnor is not in a settled situation, rather than all of the Noldor. He is on the front lines and we can even give him visions of an imminent fiery death. So when Finrod expresses that he hasn't married in part due to an oath he must swear, then Aegnor can say the same.

In the case of Gil-galad and Finduilas we have an out. We can have the Elves in Doriath, Gondolin and Nargothrond mention how things are safe in their hidden cities and only in these cities can they start families.

This will allow for Aegnor to have a valid reason, but explain why not only Finduilas, Gil-galad, but also Earendil, Elwing, Elured and Elurin.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Certainly, that makes sense. It's just going to look *highly* suspect if Aegnor turns her down, and then two episodes later, an elf baby is born to another Noldo prince. The Hosts had requested that we make this work for this time period. The only time they mentioned Gil-galad, they suggested he be born in Valinor. Clearly, we'll have to revisit this topic. (I'm not concerned with the children of Dior; having Doriath [and the Green Elves] follow different rules is understandable in a way that having other Noldo princes do so is not.) The 'realm of safety' thing vs 'soldier on the front lines' might work, but I thought I should mention the instructions we were given.

Similarly, the banning of Quenya will include the banning of wearing any jewels (except for pearls), as gems are a particularly Noldorin decoration and will be a visual cue of their suppressed culture. Seeing how the various characters comply with or flaunt this ban will allow for some nuance in Noldor-Sindar relations.
 

cellardur

Active Member
Certainly, that makes sense. It's just going to look *highly* suspect if Aegnor turns her down, and then two episodes later, an elf baby is born to another Noldo prince. The Hosts had requested that we make this work for this time period. The only time they mentioned Gil-galad, they suggested he be born in Valinor. Clearly, we'll have to revisit this topic. (I'm not concerned with the children of Dior; having Doriath [and the Green Elves] follow different rules is understandable in a way that having other Noldo princes do so is not.) The 'realm of safety' thing vs 'soldier on the front lines' might work, but I thought I should mention the instructions we were given.
If the host want thing done that way, then it's going to have to be done, but it will cause other complications.

Now that Gil-galad is not related to Cirdan, we are going to have to come up with an explanation how he ended up there.
Making him an exile, will also work against any intention for him to fight in the War of Wrath.
Similarly, the banning of Quenya will include the banning of wearing any jewels (except for pearls), as gems are a particularly Noldorin decoration and will be a visual cue of their suppressed culture. Seeing how the various characters comply with or flaunt this ban will allow for some nuance in Noldor-Sindar relations.
I am guessing the Nauglamir is the exception.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Including the silmaril in the Nauglamir is a key part of the story of Thingol's downfall.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I still would like a short revititing of Hildorien/Cuivienen with bits from the Athrabeth and the Nuin Storyline to show Morgoth´s actions in the east...
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Thank you so much for compiling that list!
You're welcome!

Likewise, we have no intention of depicting the Athrabeth on screen, but we *do* want to show the (failed) romance between Aegnor and Andreth. For that reason, it is very important that all Noldor marriages/births happen well before that time, so it looks as though Aegnor is very much justified in his decision. The only exception we are allowed is Aredhel, because her marriage should seem unnatural for all sorts of reasons.

This should not pose too much of a problem - Orodreth was born in Valinor, regardless of whether he's Angrod's son or younger brother. Celebrimbor and Idril are likewise already born before the sun rises. What matters will be the birth of Gil-galad (regardless of whose kid he is) and the birth of Finduilas (again, regardless of whether or not she has a brother or where her father falls on the family tree). Even if there is a Sindar mother involved, the fact that the father is a prince of the Noldor makes the situation completely analogous to Aegnor. If Gil-galad is born *after* we show Aegnor reject Andreth...we'll have problems. And the 'sending him to the Havens' storyline works best if he's young when he goes. The real issue here is that Tolkien never really integrated Gil-galad into the stories of the First Age, so he doesn't fit. But he has to be born before his parents die off! So, yeah, 'birth of Gil-galad' will likely need to be placed somewhere in this timeframe.
Did the Hosts specifically require that after Aegnor's failed romance, no Noldor ever be born again in the First Age? That may be quite problematic. I'm not certain, I'd have to check, but there might be implications in the Narn about how old Finduilas and Gwindor were at the time of the Dagor Bragollach. Gil-galad is explicitly said to be "young" at that time, and the implication there appears to be that he was a child less than 50 years old. That would actually require Gil-galad to be born, at the earliest, a couple years before the Athrabeth in 409, and many years after Andreth last spoke to Aegnor. And if we want to say he was not fully an adult at the time that Turgon died, then he has to be even younger, born after the Dagor Bragollach.

I don't think it's absolutely necessary for Aegnor's decision to be objectively, obviously, justified. I do agree it's necessary for his decision to be understandable, and consistent with behavior that is frequent among the Noldor. But that doesn't mean we can't leave it ambiguous whether he made the best possible decision. The thing is... well, we don't know the specific source of love and attraction in most cases in Arda, but I think it's very likely that when an Elf and a Mortal fall in love with each other*, that is Eru's finger pushing them towards marriage and reproduction. Eru has a plan that requires creating Half-elves. Of course he leaves it up to each person's free will whether they will marry somebody of the other kind, but his wishes seem pretty clear to me. Aegnor's decision wasn't immoral, but it means that there are fewer Half-elves in the world, and it increased the possibility of Half-elves going extinct during the wars of the First Age.

*except that something was off about Finduilas and Turin


And also... different Elves view the Siege of Angband differently. Finrod and Aegnor have no confidence that it will last forever, and both are reluctant to have children during the Siege, aside from the question of who they would marry. Galadriel and Celeborn don't have any children until the Second Age, that we know of, so they probably had a similar attitude even while living in the supernatural safety of Doriath. Aegnor is also on the front lines... although that's also true of Orodreth while he's living in Minas Tirith, and he has at least one child. And it's true of Fingon as well, if he's Gil-galad's father instead. But in contrast, Fingolfin boasted that Morgoth would _never_ break their Siege. If he hadn't already left his wife in Valinor, he'd have been perfectly willing to marry somebody and raise children during the Siege.

Dior's children are a different story because Dior grew up at the same pace mortals grow up, and had reason to suspect he was Mortal. Given that, he had the same choice as the Edain, and his parents: reproduce during wartime, or not at all. Tuor and Idril, and Elwing and Earendil, were in the same situation.... which actually makes me wonder, now, why their sons still weren't married at age 58. Perhaps they strongly preferred not to marry Feanorian women, but it's not like they couldn't go out and meet some Sindar, or Edain...
 

cellardur

Active Member
You're welcome!
You bring up some interesting points.
Did the Hosts specifically require that after Aegnor's failed romance, no Noldor ever be born again in the First Age? That may be quite problematic. I'm not certain, I'd have to check, but there might be implications in the Narn about how old Finduilas and Gwindor were at the time of the Dagor Bragollach. Gil-galad is explicitly said to be "young" at that time, and the implication there appears to be that he was a child less than 50 years old. That would actually require Gil-galad to be born, at the earliest, a couple years before the Athrabeth in 409, and many years after Andreth last spoke to Aegnor. And if we want to say he was not fully an adult at the time that Turgon died, then he has to be even younger, born after the Dagor Bragollach.
I have to agree with you here, because Finduilas is a key character. I think the implication is Gwindor might be an exile Elf, because he was a great lord.
I don't think it's absolutely necessary for Aegnor's decision to be objectively, obviously, justified. I do agree it's necessary for his decision to be understandable, and consistent with behavior that is frequent among the Noldor. But that doesn't mean we can't leave it ambiguous whether he made the best possible decision. The thing is... well, we don't know the specific source of love and attraction in most cases in Arda, but I think it's very likely that when an Elf and a Mortal fall in love with each other*, that is Eru's finger pushing them towards marriage and reproduction. Eru has a plan that requires creating Half-elves. Of course he leaves it up to each person's free will whether they will marry somebody of the other kind, but his wishes seem pretty clear to me. Aegnor's decision wasn't immoral, but it means that there are fewer Half-elves in the world, and it increased the possibility of Half-elves going extinct during the wars of the First Age.
I am not sure it's Eru's finger pushing them together. I am inclined to agree with Gwindor.

'Not fitting is it that the Elder Children of Illuvatar should wed the Younger; nor is it wise, nor is it wise, for they are brief; and soon pass, to leave us in widowhood while the world lasts. Neither will fate suffer it, unless it is once or twice only, for some high cause of doom that we do not perceive.'

There are only two confirmed marriages between Elves and Men, both of them were for a great course. Tuor and Idril had Earendil. Luthien and Beren regained a Silmaril. In these two cases the fates of Tuor/Luthien are forever changed so they can join the fate of their spouse. Every other case if of a Half-Elven marrying an Elf or Man.
*except that something was off about Finduilas and Turin
I actually think this was the 3rd Union that should have been and something great would have occurred had it happened. Turin even without marrying Finduilas was able to kill Glaurung and Tolkien intended for him to do something even great in a final battle, but that's impossible to incorporate now.
And also... different Elves view the Siege of Angband differently. Finrod and Aegnor have no confidence that it will last forever, and both are reluctant to have children during the Siege, aside from the question of who they would marry. Galadriel and Celeborn don't have any children until the Second Age, that we know of, so they probably had a similar attitude even while living in the supernatural safety of Doriath. Aegnor is also on the front lines... although that's also true of Orodreth while he's living in Minas Tirith, and he has at least one child. And it's true of Fingon as well, if he's Gil-galad's father instead. But in contrast, Fingolfin boasted that Morgoth would _never_ break their Siege. If he hadn't already left his wife in Valinor, he'd have been perfectly willing to marry somebody and raise children during the Siege.
I strongly agree with this. The Children of Earwen and the Teleri/Sindar in general seem to be more 'magical' than the other Noldor. Perhaps we could give Finrod dreams about an oath leading to his death. We could make it a family trait with Aegnor too having dreams of a fiery (a Balrog is we decide to) death. He can sadly see he will die soon and thinks it is unfair to wed and leave his wife or children behind.
Dior's children are a different story because Dior grew up at the same pace mortals grow up, and had reason to suspect he was Mortal. Given that, he had the same choice as the Edain, and his parents: reproduce during wartime, or not at all. Tuor and Idril, and Elwing and Earendil, were in the same situation.... which actually makes me wonder, now, why their sons still weren't married at age 58. Perhaps they strongly preferred not to marry Feanorian women, but it's not like they couldn't go out and meet some Sindar, or Edain...
The case of Dior is really a strange one. According to the judgement of Manwe, he should be mortal, but Tolkien never addresses it. I think part of the problem, is Beren was originally an Elf.

It's my wishful thinking with little backing from the text, but I think Dior/Elwing and his sons were counted as elves. This is purely my bias, but maybe Melian can play a part in petitioning for Dior to not be separated from his wife and people. Before Earendil, the Valar had certainly not decided on any rules.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I actually think this was the 3rd Union that should have been and something great would have occurred had it happened. Turin even without marrying Finduilas was able to kill Glaurung and Tolkien intended for him to do something even great in a final battle, but that's impossible to incorporate now.
I mentioned it here some time ago, but in my heart I always imagined, at the very least, that there was a spot in Earendil's family tree reserved for the daughter of Turin and Finduilas, that ended being filled by the (relatively) boring place-filler Nimloth. (I know, some of the final time line makes that difficult, but that's a minor matter).
 

Arnorion

Member
Once again, I'm late to the party but I'd like to throw my vote against altering the timeline except and unless there is a compelling reason to do so. Doc Brown explained the risks pretty well in that documentary film from the mid-eighties.

Regarding the structure of season four (and potentially season five), are we absolutely committed to ending a season with the duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth? A more natural (and achievable) break point for season four might be the arrival of the Edain in Belereiand and subsequent discovery by Finrod (which would nicely parallel their wordless cameo at the end of the previous season during the rising of the sun reactions montage) or the welcoming of the Edain as vassals of the Noldor in the late 300s followed by the execution of Eol in Gondolin focusing on the themes of treachery and tragedy.

That being said, I'd like to caution (generally) against moving too quickly through the tale of years after the arrival of men. It could be very disconcerting to have entire generations or even multiple generations of men passing between episodes. I understand we need to keep things moving to hit the high points in the annals set out by The Author but moving too fast could be very disorienting with regards to the human characters.
 

Arnorion

Member
I mentioned it here some time ago, but in my heart I always imagined, at the very least, that there was a spot in Earendil's family tree reserved for the daughter of Turin and Finduilas, that ended being filled by the (relatively) boring place-filler Nimloth. (I know, some of the final time line makes that difficult, but that's a minor matter).
I too have often wondered about the fate that was averted by the curse of Morgoth and the half-elven union that might have been issuing from Turin and Finduilas. Nienor too might have found an Eldarin husband (like Andreth almost achieved) drastically altering the genealogies of the second and third ages potentially reinforcing the blood of Numenor but that idea must be relegated to the realm of speculative fiction.
 

Arnorion

Member
Okay, one more thing. I'm not sure I saw it elsewhere but we should probably be making a place for Oropher (Thingol's father) in the court of Doriath. I could see him as a cameo in season four and background character in season five, not having any significant role in the kingdom until later on, perhaps helping to fill the power vacuum after the loss of Thingol. He might even have a place outside of Doriath elsewhere in Beleriand, perhaps in the havens, or leading one of the wandering companies.

If we don't work him into the first age somehow, then we run the risk of him being born in Lindon and then assuming the kingship of the Silvan realm of Greenwood (in Rhovanion) at the young age of at best a few hundred years, which seems to be problematic. Unless we wish to play up the possible angle of a presumptive foreign boy-king then we ought to work him into the early first age context even if he has only a minor role in the current stories.

As an addendum, I've always had some difficulty with the concept of Sindarin lords migrating into Silvan communities and setting themselves up as kings and queens over a lesser folk. It smacks of colonialism and self-aggrandizement. We touched on a related idea recently, the positive vision of the Noldor who perceived a call to leadership in Middle-earth and what that might look like apart from the notions of human kingdoms (protecting the land, bolstering the people, etc.) but I think it would help to explore what the transplanted Sindarin leaders really wanted to accomplish and why the Silvan people would welcome them so openly especially when some of them had their own kings (Lenwe and his heirs, Malgalad, Amdir, etc). Eventually. I mean, that isn't relevant till the second age but we might out to consider it soon so we can set up the roots of those concepts in the relatively near future.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Once again, I'm late to the party but I'd like to throw my vote against altering the timeline except and unless there is a compelling reason to do so. Doc Brown explained the risks pretty well in that documentary film from the mid-eighties.

Regarding the structure of season four (and potentially season five), are we absolutely committed to ending a season with the duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth? A more natural (and achievable) break point for season four might be the arrival of the Edain in Belereiand and subsequent discovery by Finrod (which would nicely parallel their wordless cameo at the end of the previous season during the rising of the sun reactions montage) or the welcoming of the Edain as vassals of the Noldor in the late 300s followed by the execution of Eol in Gondolin focusing on the themes of treachery and tragedy.

That being said, I'd like to caution (generally) against moving too quickly through the tale of years after the arrival of men. It could be very disconcerting to have entire generations or even multiple generations of men passing between episodes. I understand we need to keep things moving to hit the high points in the annals set out by The Author but moving too fast could be very disorienting with regards to the human characters.
We’re mainly supporting Fingolfin’s duel with Morgoth as a season finale.

Perhaps the disconcertion of the deaths of Men is the entire point, since Elves are mostly immune to disease and are only killed by violence or broken hearts.

As far as Eol’s execution goes, I have suggested that Turgon kill Eol personally.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Okay, one more thing. I'm not sure I saw it elsewhere but we should probably be making a place for Oropher (Thingol's father) in the court of Doriath. I could see him as a cameo in season four and background character in season five, not having any significant role in the kingdom until later on, perhaps helping to fill the power vacuum after the loss of Thingol. He might even have a place outside of Doriath elsewhere in Beleriand, perhaps in the havens, or leading one of the wandering companies.

If we don't work him into the first age somehow, then we run the risk of him being born in Lindon and then assuming the kingship of the Silvan realm of Greenwood (in Rhovanion) at the young age of at best a few hundred years, which seems to be problematic. Unless we wish to play up the possible angle of a presumptive foreign boy-king then we ought to work him into the early first age context even if he has only a minor role in the current stories.

As an addendum, I've always had some difficulty with the concept of Sindarin lords migrating into Silvan communities and setting themselves up as kings and queens over a lesser folk. It smacks of colonialism and self-aggrandizement. We touched on a related idea recently, the positive vision of the Noldor who perceived a call to leadership in Middle-earth and what that might look like apart from the notions of human kingdoms (protecting the land, bolstering the people, etc.) but I think it would help to explore what the transplanted Sindarin leaders really wanted to accomplish and why the Silvan people would welcome them so openly especially when some of them had their own kings (Lenwe and his heirs, Malgalad, Amdir, etc). Eventually. I mean, that isn't relevant till the second age but we might out to consider it soon so we can set up the roots of those concepts in the relatively near future.
You mean Thranduil’s father, not Thingol’s father.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Once again, I'm late to the party but I'd like to throw my vote against altering the timeline except and unless there is a compelling reason to do so. Doc Brown explained the risks pretty well in that documentary film from the mid-eighties.

Regarding the structure of season four (and potentially season five), are we absolutely committed to ending a season with the duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth? A more natural (and achievable) break point for season four might be the arrival of the Edain in Belereiand and subsequent discovery by Finrod (which would nicely parallel their wordless cameo at the end of the previous season during the rising of the sun reactions montage) or the welcoming of the Edain as vassals of the Noldor in the late 300s followed by the execution of Eol in Gondolin focusing on the themes of treachery and tragedy.

That being said, I'd like to caution (generally) against moving too quickly through the tale of years after the arrival of men. It could be very disconcerting to have entire generations or even multiple generations of men passing between episodes. I understand we need to keep things moving to hit the high points in the annals set out by The Author but moving too fast could be very disorienting with regards to the human characters.
I'm going to say that I pretty much agree with you on all points.

This is more or less the direction we are trying to aim the hosts.
 
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