Concerns About Season Four

To state it clear, i did not intend to make the majority of wood-elves avari...

I jusr thought they were culturally speaking a more feral and tribal folk than their more civilized, a bit more antique or maybe medieval sinda or noldo kindred. That would change with the overtaking of political leadership by the sinda nobility... the later wood-elves probably were far closer to sindar, or the menegroth and nargothrond culture, than their predecessors...
 
I think the majority of them are Nandorin descent, right? Nandor are sometimes called "Avari" in a casual way, but I think of them as Eldar since they started on the Great March. There are some people of Avarin descent, related to the Teleri, among the Wood Elves as well -- but not among the Green Elves as far as I know.

I imagine that they don't change much at all when the Sindarin nobility come -- in fact, from what I've read I get the impression that the Sindar who joined them wanted to adopt the Nandorin ways. Living in an underground cave system was a Sindarin thing they adopted, but I'm guessing it was only for protection. I imagine they didn't do that until Greenwood the Great became Mirkwood. I was looking at The Hobbit today and I noticed that the Wood-elves in that book don't even work metal, so they're stone-age people. And most of them live in huts or tree-houses (probably flets). The way they use their underground cave is probably all adopted from the Sindar, though -- perhaps that includes the gates, doors, barrels, keys (but wait... how do they have keys if they don't know how to forge metal? 😕). Um... maybe a few of the older Sindar immigrants are smiths, but nobody else is? They don't mine so they wouldn't have much ore anyway...

Um... well, in spite of that inconsistency... it's said Sting (a sword/dagger) was a kind of weapon unknown to the spiders in Mirkwood, so the Elves there must not have had swords. Maybe they get metal knives in trade from the Lakemen, though. I don't recall Legolas' knife being said to be stone.
 
This is weird enough that I'm looking more closely at it. Here's Ch. VIII:
The Hobbit said:
His [Thranduil's] people neither mined nor worked metal or jewels, nor did they bother much with trade or with tilling the earth.
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OK, so I shouldn't expect metal except in portable trade goods and spoils of war, right?

Chapter IX: The weapons mentioned are arrows and spears. They have a bridge wider than a piece of rope. They hunt, which is evidence for either Sindarin influence or for all the Nandor being hunters and the Green-elves later giving up hunting. I am wondering how they hewed their halls out of living stone without metal tools, but sure OK...

The Hobbit said:
A stream flowed under part of the lowest regions of the palace, and joined the Forest River some way further to the east, beyond the steep slope out of which the main mouth opened. Where this underground watercourse came forth from the hillside there was a water-gate. There the rocky roof came down close to the surface of the stream, and from it a portcullis could be dropped
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Made of... wood? Normally a portcullis that withstands immersion in a stream would be metal, right? Did they trade for a metal gate from the Lakemen? Or is it enchanted wood that never rots?

Aside: Some of their wine comes from "their kinsfolk in the South"... so does that mean there are vinyards in Lothlorien? Food for thought. Anyway...

The Hobbit said:
but this wine, it would seem, was the heady vintage of the great gardens of Dorwinion, not meant for his soldiers or his servants, but for the king's feasts only,
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Hm, the class distinctions here do seem more Sindarin than what I guess a wholly Nandorin society might have. But how much do we really know about what kind of hierarchy the Nandor or the Elves at Kuivienen had? Can anyone recall any mention of it?

The Hobbit said:
Very soon the chief guard had no keys, but Bilbo was trotting as fast as he could along the passages towards the cells. The great bunch seemed very heavy to his arms, and his heart was often in his mouth, in spite of his ring, for he could not prevent the keys from kaing every now and then a lout clink and clank, which put him all in a tremble.

First he unlocked Balin's door, and locked it again carefully as soon as the dwarf was outside.
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Keys! Metal keys it seems. And locks! Locks have to be made of metal, I imagine. Surely those aren't trade items -- unless the Mortals (or High Elves??) were invited down into the dungeons to install the locks themselves.

Yeah... this looks like a contradiction. So I guess we'll have to decide eventually just how to resolve it. Do the Wood-elves have a few Sindarin blacksmiths after all? Did they used to have a few smiths who were killed in battle? (Not the Last Alliance: they didn't move into that part of the forest until after Sauron came to Dol Guldur in the 3rd Age.) Did they get Mortals to install those locks, or import/purchase the locks and then figure out how to fit them into the doors? Do we decide those "keys" are really magic stones that "unlock" magic doors?
 
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Faelivrin said:
This is weird enough that I'm looking more closely at it. Here's Ch. VIII:
OK, so I shouldn't expect metal except in portable trade goods and spoils of war, right?

Chapter IX: The weapons mentioned are arrows and spears. They have a bridge wider than a piece of rope. They hunt, which is evidence for either Sindarin influence or for all the Nandor being hunters and the Green-elves later giving up hunting. I am wondering how they hewed their halls out of living stone without metal tools, but sure OK...

Made of... wood? Normally a portcullis that withstands immersion in a stream would be metal, right? Did they trade for a metal gate from the Lakemen? Or is it enchanted wood that never rots?
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The portcullis could be of wood. Real ones often were made of wood, reinforced by iron-bars. So they can buy the iron-bars, and use local wood for the rest. They only have to maintain it, and replace the rotting bits regularly.
 
I've always understood that the wine came from Dorwinion, south down the River Running near the Sea of Rhun. I suppose there could be other Nandor that way or possibly Avari but I doubt they would have developed fermentation unless we imagine that their closeness with the natural world allowed them to discover the uses of cultured bacteria.
 
I'm OK with Nandor making alcohol. It's a neolithic technology at the latest, and the Valar already taught the Eldar how to grow grain and bake lembas during the Great March. Bread and beer technologies are closely related -- the fermenting microbe for both is yeast, not bacteria. Grapes also come with wild yeast already growing on them, so they're fairly easy to ferment if you mash them and leave the skins in.
 
Okay, using Faelivrin's timeline on the first page of this thread, I am starting work out the story arcs as a grid. What I mean by that is that I am breaking down the plot points by character, laying them out in a row, and then matching them up with events in other storylines that need to happen before/after. Ideally, this should show us what events all need to happen more-or-less at once for storytelling purposes, and should serve as an aid in plotting out episodes and season climaxes and such. I've only done the very beginning, as I'm trying to figure out if this is the best format for tracking these things.

So, here's a sample of what needs to happen prior to the Feast of Reuniting in FA 20. Season 4 Plot Arcs.jpg

One downside of this format is that it does not allow a lot of space for tracking details - such as the introduction of Glorfindel and Ecthelion in Turgon's court at Nevrast. Fëanoreans moving east, Angrod going to Doriath, Etc. It's just tracking some likely protagonists through the Season.
 
This looks pretty much like episodes 1-3 (or 4) from what I can see. I've been wanting to do something like this myself, maybe using color to indicate location so we can see which things are happening in the same place. I've been, as is widely known, a bit preoccupied.
 
We’ll need to decide where the cutoff is, if there is to be a cutoff, and some events overlap, namely the death of Aredhel in 400 FA, well after the coming of Men. Should we be doing the Elvish events before the coming of Men, or go in chronological order?
 
This, to me, is a reasonable amount of content to work through in a single 13 episode season:

Season 4 Arcs - proposed.png
This is just a bare-bones of the events that need to happen.

Obviously, you can add subplots, like the dwarves building Nargothrond and befriending Finrod and making him the Nauglamir. With Círdan unexpectedly building a lasting friendship with the Noldor (why???). The Sons of Fëanor being anti-social and bickering out in the east, and then meeting the dwarves. The courts of Fingolfin, and Turgon, and Finrod, and Maedhros, all need to be established, in contrast to each other and Thingol's Doriath.

We need to reintroduce Eöl in this season, and he needs to have dwarf friends, and make his sword, and then barter it for Nan Elmoth. Basically, everything we were going to do with him in Season 3 now needs to happen in Season 4.

We will have to decide how to depict the villain plotline - what is Morgoth thinking, and how likely are we to figure out what he's doing with Men in the East? Recall that we teased the awakening of Men at the end of Season 3.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
We’ll need to decide where the cutoff is, if there is to be a cutoff, and some events overlap, namely the death of Aredhel in 400 FA, well after the coming of Men. Should we be doing the Elvish events before the coming of Men, or go in chronological order?
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I would say that optimal cutoff for the season would be around 310, with the arrival of Men in Beleriand.
 
MithLuin said:
This, to me, is a reasonable amount of content to work through in a single 13 episode season:

View attachment 1893
This is just a bare-bones of the events that need to happen.

Obviously, you can add subplots, like the dwarves building Nargothrond and befriending Finrod and making him the Nauglamir. With Círdan unexpectedly building a lasting friendship with the Noldor (why???). The Sons of Fëanor being anti-social and bickering out in the east, and then meeting the dwarves. The courts of Fingolfin, and Turgon, and Finrod, and Maedhros, all need to be established, in contrast to each other and Thingol's Doriath.

We need to reintroduce Eöl in this season, and he needs to have dwarf friends, and make his sword, and then barter it for Nan Elmoth. Basically, everything we were going to do with him in Season 3 now needs to happen in Season 4.

We will have to decide how to depict the villain plotline - what is Morgoth thinking, and how likely are we to figure out what he's doing with Men in the East? Recall that we teased the awakening of Men at the end of Season 3.
Click to expand...

Let's not forget adding enough material for the Celeborn/Galadriel romance to make sense. We've been doing a lot of weddings without any buildup. I'd like theirs to not be a background event.
 
Yes! I very much agree. This can start out as 'their eyes meet', but we need to see them getting to know one another. That can be a big part of the Sindar/Noldor meeting storyline. It's romantic when it's the two of them...less so when the ugly truth comes out later in the Season.

The question is...when do we need them to be married by? That 'no marriage in times of war' thing is going to be tricky to pull off in First Age Beleriand, and it's Galadriel's *brother* who uses that as a reason not to marry Andreth. So....it has to not look hypocritical here. Would some time during the Seige work for people? It's a time of peace because Morgoth is held back, long before Glaurung appears and the elves aren't *losing* any of the fights they're in. The realm of Doriath is at peace, and the rest of Beleriand is in a Watchful Peace. That gives us a few hundred years to build up their relationship before there's a marriage.

If we go that route, then we will have to navigate the Galadriel-moves-to-Doriath storyline independently of the Galadriel-weds-Celeborn storyline. Very doable, as Tolkien makes it clear that she becomes and apprentice to Melian. So, we can have Celeborn invite her to come visit his home (as a friend!) and she can decide to stay...and then as they get to know each other better, a more romantic relationship develops. Celeborn is wise enough to keep his mouth shut, and thus can 'manage' a hot-headed younger Galadriel. But we want to show a true partnership develop where it makes sense that this strong-willed woman who wanted to rule is content to marry this guy who has been supporting Thingol as a statesman with no ruling ambitions of his own.

So, we basically have Season 4 as the Galadriel/Celeborn romance, Season 4.5 as the (doomed) Andreth/Aegnor romance, and then Season 5 as Beren and Lúthien. I think that should work nicely.

Season 4 is rapidly becoming the Finrod and Turgon show!

Season 4 Arcs - proposed.png
I am very intentionally *not* breaking this down into particular episodes yet. The idea is to get the content sorted out, and then make good choices about the way to break it up - what arcs go together, naturally finish before something else starts, etc.
 
These charts will be very useful, thanks for working on this.

Galadriel and Orodreth getting married during the Siege makes sense. Gil-galad (whatever his parentage) is still a child in 455.

I urge the Eol story to not be spread out like that, but to be fitted into its proper context, before the Noldor arrive and certainly before the Mereth Aderthad. Nothing I said about his storyline has changed.


Lastly, what is the part about the Noldor being driven out of Ard-Galen before Men arrive? I don't recall an event when that happened, until the Dagor Bragollach.
Edit: Possibly I forgot all about it. My brain is not at its best.
 
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Faelivrin said:
These charts will be very useful, thanks for working on this.

Galadriel and Orodreth getting married during the Siege makes sense. Gil-galad (whatever his parentage) is still a child in 455.

I urge the Eol story to not be spread out like that, but to be fitted into its proper context, before the Noldor arrive and certainly before the Mereth Aderthad. Nothing I said about his storyline has changed.


Lastly, what is the part about the Noldor being driven out of Ard-Galen before Men arrive? I don't recall an event when that happened, until the Dagor Bragollach.
Edit: Possibly I forgot all about it. My brain is not at its best.
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I’m unsure about the Noldor being driven out of Ard-Galen before the Dagor Bragollach. The published Silmarillion mentions that the Noldor are the main party at the Siege of Angband, that “many of the Noldor perished in that burning”.
 
Ah, that is one of the shortcomings with this format - I am trying to say that Glaurung attacks and the Noldor lose ground, before Fingon is able to drive Glaurung back. There has to be *some* indication that this isn't just 'scary dragon! Noldor victory!' without any ramping up of tension between the events. But of course, I am listing all of these events as occurring at the same time, because they do. They just don't happen in the order they appear in that column!

The Ard Galen --> Anfauglith situation will obviously be a consequence of the Battle of Sudden Flame.

As for Eöl...he doesn't appear in Season 3, and we're now in the First Age with the sun risen. We can request his story be told in flashback, or adapt it to fit in here and now. He could have been living in East Beleriand/with the dwarves all along, and it is the arrival of the Noldor that makes him feel the need to lay claim to land officially, prompting this storyline. Or his home is now too sunny, so he feels the desire to move. But most likely, whatever we are showing will be happening in real time, with allusions to earlier events.
 
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I would say that all Noldor marriages have to occur before the appearance of Glaurung. That should be the event that makes clear all is not peaceful in Beleriand.

Okay, here is a more complete spreadsheet, now with mortal Men! Who are tricksy with their short lifespans; getting them to overlap appropriately is not proving so easy....

And I still haven't figured out what to do with Círdan. Or dwarves, really. Or even Thingol, for that matter. Part of the challenge is that the main characters of the Battle of Sudden Flame are Angrod, Aegnor, and the House of Bëor. Figuring out how to build that up appropriately in light of what comes before is so tricky!

Season 4 Arcs - proposed.png
 
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Another way we can have the arrival of Glaurung and his defeat be a pyrrhic victory is by leaving the elves standing amidst the destruction of his passing. The attack has real economic consequences. They have to rebuild, and actually fortify their settlements. Up until now, if they saw an army of orcs coming from Angband, they still had time to muster an army and meet them in the field, where their individual superiority would easily prevent the orcs' passing. Now they have to prepare for attacks that hit them at home. As I think about this, I am reminded of the difference between war which happens on some distant battlefield and war that happens in your backyard. The Sindar (Falathrim anyway) have experience with this, the Noldor do not. And not only does that need to have an impact on our protagonists, but we need to feel that impact.
 
To put it in modern terms, Orcs are infantry, Trolls and Balrogs are tanks. In his first sortie, Glaurung has an effect like the carpet bombing of World War II. He hits them at home. He is overwhelmingly destructive and extremely mobile. And he changes the face of the battlefield and how it is structured.
 
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