Concerns About Season Four

[amysrevenge]

I'm not saying "we must break from the book" but would the benefit of temporal concurrence be worth the cost of timeline deviation? What would be broken by making Tuor a couple years older?

I guess it's a season or two early to work on it this hard right now, but the real discussion will have to take place over a pair of detailed timelines

 

[Haerangil]

Well, question for the adaption would be:if we change the thing, what's the outcome? If it's better then there's a reason ...

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, I understand why you started your conjecture, amysrevenge, but I agree that it's not exactly a Season 4 question! (glances at thread title)

Personally, I am *exceedingly* hesitant to go the 'tell Tuor and Túrin's stories in parallel' route, because I think that there will be too much temptation to sacrifice some of the story in service to creating those parallels. Making them the same age is an example of that; they're not the same age, so if we changed that, we'd have to give them a shared childhood. Their fathers are extremely close brothers, and they live in the same place, so they'd be...what you might expect of close cousins. And then there would be the obligatory scene where they, as young kids, discuss the future, and both of them say something that later becomes ironic or poignant, and just...

I don't mind inventing scenes. I wrote a brief scene for this project where Galadriel and Aredhel hang out with toddler Idril and have the 'you can't marry your cousin!' conversation, which is exactly the sort of 'this will be significant later' kind of scene I'm talking about here. The issue isn't that this ruins the story, but that it puts...false pressure...on the story to have the characters conform to some sort of opposite foil thing which will (eventually) dictate how we tell that story.

There are parallels that are significant and could work really well - Tuor/Idril vs Túrin/Finduilas, for example, with Gwindor and Maeglin as the other side of the love triangle. Tuor being raised by Annael while Túrin is raised by Thingol. Etc. Tolkien definitely considered these stories tied together, and it wouldn't be wrong of us to interweave them. But. If we tried to make *every* episode of one season a Tuor & Túrin story, where their entire story is told in parallel? Well...that would be very challenging to do well, and would require some really good planning. Not saying we can't do it...just that we'd need to put a lot of up-front work into it to make it turn out *well* - to find the ways to interweave the story that feel almost natural, rather than forced or cliched or obvious or, whelp, guess we have to do it this way now.

But, hey, we have time, so if someone wants to try to map out a Tuor&Túrin season with interwoven episodes, knock yourself out!

 

[amysrevenge]

The trouble is (and ultimately I agree with you, the knock-on impacts of changing the timing almost certainly make it not worth the benefit), these are two stories that overlap temporally, but not in a particularly useful or convenient way. You're stuck either telling them separately and dealing with "when is all this happening" issues, or you start weaving one of them into the other when it starts, which won't always match up in tone. Or rather, will almost never match up the way we'd like.

In more general terms, this is something we are going to be running in to more and more, even starting soon. Events and arcs that are running concurrently, but not at the same points in their progression at the same time across Beleriand. Organization-wise, we might actually be able to tell almost all of the rest of the story of the 1st Age, from S5(6) onward, viewed through the lens of of either Beren or Turin or Tuor - one or the other of them (or their immediate descendants) are front and center for almost all the main action basically from the time they are adults (or even earlier).

In S3 it was difficult enough, and we only had 3 separate arcs that were all building toward crescendos at about the same time - any forward or back time hopping would be minor/un-noticeable at worst, if there even is any at all. Although now that I start to talk about it, I guess the major battles are all fixed points in time. As long as we have those to anchor us, we might be able to pop forward and back in small amounts, to tell distinct smaller stories in a contiguous way within the larger story.

 

[Faelivrin]

I'd be very concerned about the eventual pressure to make major changes to set them up as foils if we told them in parallel, as well as changes we'd have to make to force them into parallel. Any change to a plot has the potential to set off a "butterfly effect" of serious consequences, which may be unanticipated but nonetheless really bad. Example one is the huge cascade of negative consequences and problems caused by postponing all of Beleriand's history until Season 3.

And the Tuor and Turin stories are an example of very delicately put-together stories, where the timing and details were very intricately worked out. Tuor and Turin overlap directly only at Eithel Ivrin, but they overlap indirectly via Gelmir and Arminas, and that overlap is very delicate in its timing and cannot be altered without causing big problems to both stories.

Not to mention the mood whiplash that would result from putting both Tuor and Turin into every episode (Nargothrond is destroyed! Tuor meets Ulmo and it's awesome! ). Forcing these two stories to be parallel would probably be to the great detriment of both.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I'd be very concerned about the eventual pressure to make major changes if we told them in parallel just to set them up as foils, as well as changes we'd have to make to force them into parallel. Any change to a plot has the potential to set off a "butterfly effect" of serious consequences, which may be unanticipated but nonetheless really bad. Example one is the huge cascade of negative consequences and problems caused by postponing all of Beleriand's history until Season 3.

And the Tuor and Turin stories are an example of very delicately put-together stories, where the timing and details were very intricately worked out. Tuor and Turin overlap directly only at Eithel Ivrin, but they overlap indirectly via Gelmir and Arminas, and that overlap is very delicate in its timing and cannot be altered without causing big problems to both stories.

Not to mention the mood whiplash that would result from putting both Tuor and Turin into every episode (Nargothrond is destroyed! Tuor meets Ulmo and it's awesome! ). Forcing these two stories to be parallel would probably be to the great detriment of both.

So what about the stuff after Turin’s death? Thingol’s death is mentioned in The Fall of Gondolin, do we go from Turin’s story, then Tuor’s and then what happened everywhere else like the Ruin of Doriath?

 

[Faelivrin]

It'll be really tricky, for sure. The Fall of Gondolin not only comes after the Second Kinslaying, it leads right into Earendil's story.

But Turin's story leads right into the Wanderings of Hurin, and audiences can sympathize best with Hurin's misery if that story is told immediately after Turin and Nienor die. (Sympathizing with his misery not only helps set the mood, but helps keep audiences from hating him for all the crazy crap he does...). And the Wanderings of Hurin lead immediately into the fall of Doriath, which leads to Earendil's story...

Maybe we should tell
1. a Turin season,
2. a Tuor coming to Gondolin season,
3. a Turin and Hurin and Doriath season,
4. a fall of Gondolin and Earendil season.

Or something like that. And since the coming of Easterlings and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad may not be an entire season, is that the first half of what becomes the first Turin season? I'd hate to have to put Beren and Luthien and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad into the same season, since Beren and Luthien is one of the most hopeful stories in the Silmarillion.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

How about the ending of Breen and Luthien has Turin’s birth, since he’s born during Beren and Luthien, with the next half a season devoted to the Alliance, the sickness of FA 469, and the Nirnaeth Arnordiad?

 

[Arnorion]

You mean Thranduil’s father, not Thingol’s father.

Wow, yes. Of course it was Thranduil I was thinking of, not Thingol. Thanks for the catch! Embarrassing, but necessary to avoid confusion.

To restate my position, I'd like to see Thranduil's father Oropher placed in Thingol's court sometime in the next season or two so that his rise to (regional) prominence early in the second age doesn't come out of nowhere. Perhaps he can even be given some small but relevant task such as the incorporation into Doriath of Nivrim west of Doriath (showing his tendancy for colonization) or as ambassador/guide to the Nandor who settled in Arthorien after the first battle when many of the Nandor decide to settle in Doriath. He might even be a political foil of Saeros.

 

[Haerangil]

Maybe orophers family is somehow linked or intermarried with lenwes family? Would it make sense to make up something that explains their later orientation towards the silvan elves? Or woukd that be a nonsense addition?

 

[Alcarohtar]

• • 
    I tried to plan out the next seasons. It's only a suggestion, feel free to change/comment things. The beginning of my season 5 must be stretched out. I rushed through it to give Andreth and Aegnor many episodes, but they can't have that many. I have no more suggestions for the Andreth storyline, but we need more. Also we need more bad guys (and dwarves). What do you think about the Beren and Lúthien season? Used some stuff from the Lays. Season 7 goes a little bit back in time, but I don't think it'll be an issue. Túrin's youth is just thrown in and needs to be fixed
    
    S4: Awakening of men - Men entering Beleriand
    • Beleriand stuff (Nordor and Sindar):
      • Eöl, Thingol and Nan Elmoth
      • Fingon rescues Maedhros
      • Crowning of Fingolfin
      • Thingol grants the north to the Noldor as a gift for helping them against Morgoth (Hithlum, Nevrast, Dorthonion, Himring, Thargelion)
      • Sons of Fëanor moving east
      • Mereth Aderthad
      • Ulmo’s visions to Finrod and Turgon
      • The finarfins are guests in Doriath
      • Nulukkizdîn discovered by Finrod (Mîm tossed)
      • Turgon finds Tumladen
      • Dagor Aglareb
        • Construction of Minas Tirith (Tol Sirion)
        • Siege of Angband
        • Building of Barad Eithel
      • Turgon moving his people from Nevrast to Gondolin in secret
      • Galadriel tells of the Silmarils
      • Gondolin and Nargothrond completed
      • Thingol learns of the Kinslaying and the death of his brother, he bans Quenya
      • Orcs attack Hithlum from Lammoth/Drengist
        • After this defeat and the Dagor Aglareb Morgoth start to make Dragons
        • Finrod builds the Barad Minras tower to watch the sea (if morgoth had marines)
      • Glaurung is set loose and defeated on Ard-Galen, the Long Peace begins
      • Finrod meets the house of Bëor in Ossiriand
    • Tom Bombadil scene
    • Amrod/Amras stuff?
  
  S5: More men - Dagor Bragollach
  • E1:
    • House of Bëor (introduce characters) vs Green elves, Estolad.
      • Friendship between Bëor and Finrod (talk about the past, the “shadow”), Baran takes over as chieftain
    • Aredhel leaves Gondolin to find Curufin and Celegorm
    • House of Haleth (introduce characters) , Thargelion.
    • Aredhel meets Eöl, Maeglin is born
    • House of Marach (introduce characters), Estolad
    • Something about Amrod/Amras giving Estolad to Men?
  • E2:
    • Malach in service under Fingolfin/Fingon in Hithlum. He marries Zimrahin
    • Bëor dies in service to Finrod, the first death by age seen by elves
    • More men dies
    • The Haladin battle with orcs, Haldad and Haldar dies, but Haleth and Haldan (infant) survives due to Caranthir’s help
  • E3:
    • Haleth denies Caranthir's protection and leads her people to Estolad
    • Council of Estolad
      • Amlach (Really Sauron?) speaks against the Eldar. Amlach takes up service to Maedhros.
      • Bereg leaving with thousand people southwards.
  • E4:
    • Haleth leads her folk away from Estolad
    • Maeglin and Aredhel
    • Haleth takes her people past Nan Dungortheb
    • Eöl going away to the dwarves, Aredhel and Maeglin escaping.
    • Haleth reaching Brethil
    • Eöl following Aredhel to Gondolin
    • Aredhel’s death and Eöl’s execution
  • E5:
  • • Battle of the Pass of Aglon
      • Orcs attack, but are defeated by Maedhros, Angrod, Aegnor and the house of Bëor
      • Elves see the need for Men as allies
    • House of Haleth vs Thingol
      • They have to protect the borders of Doriath
    • Hador enters the service of Fingolfin
      • Dor-Lomin is given to the House of Hador
    • Ladros given to the House of Bëor
      • Boromir is their leader
    • Death of Haleth, the son of her brother, Haldan is the new leader
  • E6:
    • Andreth is with Adanel learning to be a wise-woman
    • More stuff with Andreth
      
      
    • Boromir dying, Andreth and Bregor comforting each other
    • Bregor the new Lord of Ladros
      • Andreth meeting Aegnor for the first time during the ceremony
        
    • Andreth and Finrod (the fall of Men)
      
      
    • Bregolas is the new lord of Ladros, Barahir and Emeldir
      
      
    • Hareth marries Galdor
      
      
    • Huor and Húrin sent to Brethil
      
  • E12-13:
    • Dagor Bragollach
      • Morgoth breaks the siege
      • Burning of Ard-Galen
        • Barahir rescues Finrod and is given the ring
      • Hador and his son Gundor dies at Barad Eithel
      • Pass of Aglon breached
        • Celegorm and Curufin flee to Nargothrond
      • Dorthonion is conquered and Angrod and Aegnor is killed, death of Bregolas and Andreth
      • Fingolfin in single battle with Morgoth. Fingolfin dies but his body is saved by Thorondor and sent to Gondolin.
        
• S6: Beren and Lúthien
  • E1:
    • Ladros attacked
      • Emeldir leeds refugees away
    • Sauron takes the Tol Sirion
      • Orodreth flees to Nargothrond, he sends his son, Gil-galad to the Falas
    • Beleg, the Haladin and Huor and Húrin fighting orcs on the borders of Doriath
    • The refugees from Dorthonion reach Brethil
      • Morwen and Rian are with the refugees (Morwen+Húrin = Túrin, Rian+Huor = Tuor)
    • Barahir and the outlaws settle at Tarn Aeluin
  • E2:
    • Barahir and the outlaws in Ladros
      • Gorlim finds his wife’s house empty and their land desolate. Gorlim the Unhappy and Sauron
    • Beren’s dream
    • Massacre at Tarn Aeluin
    • Beren’s revenge on the orcs
    • Sauron trying to trap Beren
      • Animals helping Beren
      • The defiling of Dorthonion
      • Beren escapes
  • E3:
    • Beren crossing the Gorgoroth
      • Spiders
    • Lúthien and Daeron dancing and playing
      • Beren comes in
    • Lúthien and Daeron run
      • Beren shouts Tinúviel
    • Beren follows them
    • Beren finds Lúthien dancing alone
    • Lúthien and Beren meets in secret
    • Daeron sees Beren together with Lúthien
    • Beren before Thingol
      • The Quest for the silmaril
  • E4:
    • Beren leaving Doriath
    • Beren in Nargothrond
    • Finrod vs Curufin and Celegorm
    • Leaving Nargothrond
      • Orodreth as king
    • Disguising as orcs
    • Sauron, Thuringwethil and Tevildo
    • Finrod and Beren before Sauron
      • Singing/riddle contest
      • Revealed as not orcs, but they're names and quest remain secret
      • Chained
  • E5:
    • Lúthien and Melian
    • Lúthien and Daeron
      • Daeron telling Thingol
    • Lúthien imprisoned by Thingol
    • Lúthien escaping
    • Sauron sending the wolfs out
    • Celegorm and Curufin go hunting
    • Lúthien is found by Huan
    • Lúthien in Nargothrond
      • Orodreth vs Celegorm and Curufin
  • E6:
    • One by one Sauron's prisoners die
    • Celegorm and Curufin's letter to Thingol
    • Thingol’s reaction, Daeron repenting
    • Almost war between Nargothrond (Celegorm and Curufin) and Doriath
      • Beleg(?) goes to Nargothrond (as a messenger? scout? ???)
    • Huan helps Lúthien escape
    • The last companion of Finrod and Beren is killed, they're alone
  • E7:
    • Lúthien and Huan is near Tol-im-gaurwaith
      • Tevildo attacks
      • Huan kills Tevildo
    • Finrod and Beren talking, suddenly they have revealed ... (who they are? the plan/"mission"?) to Sauron who was watching them. Sauron laughs and sends a wolf to kill them
    • Finrod burst his bonds and wrestle with the werewolf
      • Finrod dies
    • Beren hears a voice
    • Lúthien is singing on the Bridge
    • Sauron sends wolf after wolf down
      • Huan kills them all
    • Draugluin comes and is defeated
      • Sauron learns about Huan
    • Sauron transforms himself into a wolf
      • Defeated by Huan
    • All prisoners are freed
  • E8:
    • Prisoners and Huan returns to Nargothrond
    • Celegorm and Curufin banished, not killed. Celebrimbor turns away from his father
    • Beren and Lúthien bury Finrod
    • They travel southwards to Doriath's borders
      • Beren can’t cross the border
      • First discussion
    • Celegorm’s attack on Beren and the kidnapping of Lúthien
      • Beren kicking some fanorean ass and gets wounded
      • Huan leaves Curufin forever
  • E9:
    • Huan and Lúthien heals Beren
    • Beleg comes home with news about Lúthien’s escape, Finrod’s death and Celegorm’s exile from Nargothrond
    • Beren and Lúthien’s 2nd discussion
    • Thingol’s embassy to Himring
      • Interrupted by Boldog’s attack
      • Thingol takes Boldog as captive
      • Thingol learns that Lúthien is not in Morgoth’s hands and kills him
      • Daeron sets out to search for Lúthien, but gets lost
    • Beren’s solo departure from Lúthien
      • Huan protecting Lúthien
    • Reaching Taur-nu-fuin
      • Beren’s song
  • E10:
    • Lúthien waking up hearing the song
    • Lúthien and Huan comes to Beren
    • They decide to go to Angband, but don’t know how. Huan gets the hames of Draugluin and Thuringwethil.
    • They reach the gates and passes Carcharoth
    • She dances before Morgoth and he falls asleep
    • Beren cuts out the Silmaril, but the knife snaps when he tries to take another one
    • In fear of Morgoth waking they try to escape
  • E11:
    • Carcharoth comes in their way and Beren tries to use the Silmaril as a means to protect them, but Carcharoth bites his hands off.
    • They run over Anfauglith with enemies closing in.
    • The eagles rescue them. Lúthien cries over Beren and her tears fall just as they pass over Gondolin.
    • Lúthien heals Beren again and they return to Doriath.
    • They approach Thingol, Beren “empty handed” moves Thingol.
  • E12:
    • Thingol and Lúthien hears about Daeron and people are sent to find him
    • Carcharoth passes through the Girdle and interrupts the searching party for Daeron. Carcharoth brings much destruction.
    • Beren, Thingol, Huan etc. goes on Carcharoth-hunt.
    • Huan and Beren dies but the Silmaril is recovered from dead Carcharoth.
    • Lúthien dies of sorrow and comes to Mandos
  • E13:
    • Thingol and Melian mourn for Lúthien, Beren and Daeron
    • Lúthien sings in her sorrow before Mandos. He is moved by her sorrow and gives her 2 choices.
    • She chooses a mortal life to save Beren
    • They return to life, but goes to live in Ossiriand
    • Cameos of Daeron wandering lost, Beren and Lúthien living in Ossiriand, and Finrod reunited with Amarië in Valinor

• Season 7: The union of Maedhros
  • E1:
    • Húrin and Huor are fighting orcs near Brethil (back to E1, S6), they get cut off. Thorondor save them.
    • They come to Gondolin and Turgon remembers Ulmo’s prophecy about the help that will come from the House of Hador in their direst hour, and accepts the brothers.
      Maeglin is now an important lord in Gondolin, a member of the kings council, a smith and a leader of a “House”. But he doesn’t like them and talk against them.
    • Turgon hears news about the outside world from the brothers. He sees that things are now very bad, even as the prophecy of Mandos spoke about. They go up to the cairn of Fingolfin.
    • After a long time the brothers want to go home. Maeglin argues against it, but Turgon being fond of them goes against his own policy.
    • Huor and Húrin travel on Thorondor so they don’t see the gates or the location of the entrance.
    • Húrin and Huor comes to Brethil.
    • They return to Dor-Lomin with Morwen and Rian from Brethil because of the defeat of Sauron at Tol-im-gaurwaith
  • E2:
    • Húrin marries Morwen. There are a lot of questions about where they were. Galdor suspects Gondolin, but Húrin doesn't reveal anything.
    • Morgoth is angry. Sauron, Thuringwethil,Tevildo and Draugluin are all gone. He’s gonna take revenge
    • Orcs attack Hithlum and Barad Eithel. Galdor dies, Húrin takes up the leadership of the House of Hador.
    • Maedhros receive Celegorm and Curufin at Himring
      • They’re angry, and tells him about Beren and Lúthien.
      • Maedhros is outraged by his brothers’ attempt to kidnap Lúthien
      • They reveal their plan to unite the different kingdoms against Morgoth through the marriage.
      • Maedhros talk about uniting them though alliances rather than trickery
  • E3:
    • Word reaches Himring of Beren, Lúthien and the Silmaril
      • Celegorm and Curufin are outraged by the fact that a non-feanorian has taken the jewel.
      • They want Thingol to hand over the Silmaril or be slain, but Maedhros stops them.
      • Maedhros inspired by Beren and Lúthien wants to unite all the elves and men against Morgoth who has lost several allies (Tevildo, Sauron, Thuringwethil and Boldog)
      • Celegorm and Curufin have already made enough damage, if they just let Thingol keep the jewel for so long he might be willing to cooperate with them.
    • Easterlings come over the mountains.
      • Bór + Maedhros
      • Ulfang + Caranthir
    • Maedhros planning ...
  • E4:
    • Fingon, Thingol, Orodreth, Húrin, Handir etc. receive information about the union.
      • Orodreth and Thingol denies them
      • Celegorm and Curufin threaten Thingol telling him about the oath and him keeping the Silmaril from them. Maedhros gets them to focus on the union first, if they win Thingol will surely give up the Silmaril.
    • Fingon making preperations
    • Caranthir in contact with the dwarves…
  • E5:
    • Húrin and Túrin’s early years
    • Lalaith
    • The plague, Lalaith’s death
    • Sador…
    • Húrin and Morwen
    • Huor and Rian marries
    • Húrin and Huor receive the call to war
    • Words even reach Turgon. Maeglin say there is no chance they can help.
  • E6:
    • Morgoth hears about the union and prepares to strike back. He also reveal what he knows of Gondolin. The rumers about Húrin and Huor have travelled. He can’t take Nargothrond nor Doriath, yet he fears Gondolin more. Turgon makes him feel bad
    • Gwindor of Nargothrond argues for joining the union, but only a few joins the army of Fingon
    • Beleg and Mablung joins from Doriath
    • Elves from the Falas join too
    • Fingon is mustering his forces
    • Handir and Brandir. Handir leaves northward with men from the forests.
    • Húrin and Morwen's what if talk and Húrin's departing with the soldiers.
  • E7:
    • Maedhros tells the plan while we see the armies lined up; Maedhros in the east
      • The dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod
      • The men of Ulfang and Bór
    • Fingon in the west
      • Men of Brethil
      • Elves from Nargothrond
      • Huor and Húrin
      • Falathrim
      • Beleg and Mablung
    • Midway into the plan, Morgoth takes over and tells the rest. “Haha men are easily deceived”
    • Fingon, looking to the east, “Maedhros should have been here now”
    • Everybody waiting nervously
  • E8:
    • Orcs approach Barad Eithel and tries to lure them out
    • Fingon tells everybody to wait for the signal of Maedhros
    • They kill Gelmir, and Gwindor and the elves from Nargothrond rush forward
    • Fingon can’t hold his forces back no more
    • They pursue the orcs even to the walls of Thangorodrim
    • Gwindor breaks even through the doors
    • Morgoth is scared
    • Gwindor taken captive and the others slain
    • Orcs pour out from other, secret doors and Fingon is fought back
    • Haldir is slain with the rest of the Haladin
    • Arrival of Turgon and the Gondolindrim
  • E9:
    • Start of the battle from Maedhros’ side
    • The delay by Ulfang
    • Whispering between men
    • The arrival to the battle
    • Turgon and Maedhros fighting to get towards Fingon, Turgon meeting Fingon, Húrin and Huor
    • Almost joining of the forces of Fingon/Turgon and Maedhros, but Glaurung and the Balrogs come between
  • E10:
    • The elves winning, Azaghal fighting Glaurung
    • Betrayal of Uldor
    • Confusion in the eastern host
    • Bor vs Ulfang
    • Scattering of Maedhros’ army
    • Glaurung hurt, but Azaghal dies
    • The dwarves leave the battle
  • E11:
    • Balrogs cutting Fingon off
    • Turgon fighting to get to his brother
    • Everybody dies around Fingon
    • Fingon making his stand against Gothmog
    • Another balrog hitting him, Gothmog takes the final blow and kills Fingon
    • Everybody dying
    • Húrin/Huor stops Turgon and tells him to go away and hide
    • They let Turgon slip away from Morgoth
  • E12:
    • Last stand of Húrin
    • Huor dies, everybody dies
    • Standing alone fighting the orcs before taken captive
    • Brought before Morgoth

Húrin defying Morgoth, the curse upon his family, him in the chair on Thangorodrim, shots of Rían and Morwen being pregnant.
Morgoth betraying the easterlings and shutting them in Hithlum.

Season 8: Túrin

• Beginning with the coming of the easterlings?
• Rían setting out from Dor-Lomin to find out what happened
  • Saying good bye to Morwen. She advices her not to leave, she's pregnant, but Morwen can't argue against her pride(? It's a family thing?)
• She is saved by Annael
• Rían gives birth, but hears news about the battle from the elves
• She leaves
• As time goes by Morwen is starting to think she might need to send Túrin away
• Rían finds Huor dead in the hill of the slain and dies of sorrow there
• ...

 

[Faelivrin]

I support Arnorion and Haerangil's suggestions for Oropher. All of Denethor's close kin supposedly died at Amon Ereb, but maybe he has a less-close kin who could marry Oropher.

 

[Arnorion]

Maybe orophers family is somehow linked or intermarried with lenwes family? Would it make sense to make up something that explains their later orientation towards the silvan elves? Or woukd that be a nonsense addition?

I like this idea. A familial link might help explain why long sundered and apparently thriving independent group of Silvan elves would accept a transplanted Sindarin lord (of debatable status/rank in Doriath) as their new king. Presumably they had none before, just leaders. Also, it might help us fill in some of the blanks regarding the fate of Lenwe and his progeny in Middle Earth. I have often wondered what connection the later Kings of Lothlorien (Amroth, his father Amdir, and the mysterious Malgalad) might have had to Lenwe and this could give us the chance to explore it.

 

[Faelivrin]

We could try to get across the idea that the Sindar and Nandor have great affection for each other and think of themselves as already being very close kin (which they are). It was also said, in at least one version, that the Sindarin lords who came from Beleriand assimilated to the Silvan culture. That doesn't actually make them into Nandor, but it could help it look less like foreign colonization.

It would also make sense that Malgalad and Amdir are potentially related to Lenwe. Denethor could have had siblings.

 

[amysrevenge]

Yeah it's really only close relatives of Lenwe/Denethor *in Beleriand* that are specifically is short supply, right?

 

[Arnorion]

We could try to get across the idea that the Sindar and Nandor have great affection for each other and think of themselves as already being very close kin (which they are). It was also said, in at least one version, that the Sindarin lords who came from Beleriand assimilated to the Silvan culture. That doesn't actually make them into Nandor, but it could help it look less like foreign colonization. It would also make sense that Malgalad and Amdir are potentially related to Lenwe. Denethor could have had siblings.

Certainly the Sindar and Nandor are both Teleri and are biologically close kin but their orientation (i.e. their chose purpose), at least as we have portrayed it here in SilmFilm, is rather different. The Nandor made the positive decision to stay in Middle-earth to fulfill the original purpose of elves to enrich the landscape, awaken the trees, and befriend the Ents (and to a lesser extent the Atani).

The Sindar on the other hand made the positive decision to press on towards Aman in pursuit of the light responding to the call of the Valar. The only reason the Sindar aren't there was due to the temporary loss of Elwe Singollo. Still they hold each other close kin and in great affection so we should certainly focus on that, perhaps holding the different purposes and objectives in tension with that.

I agree that the text gives us evidence of the Sindarin lords adopting into Silvan culture. Legolas is a prime example. His father Thanduil was said to be wholly Sindarin but he presumably took a Silvan wife and their child claimed the Silvan culture rather completely. As you say, that merging doesn't make them Nandor or even Silvan but it does move them closer culturally, less like an external takeover, a look I'm sure we want to avoid.

In a few of my extended family trees I've imagined that Malgalad at least was related to Lenwe, Denethor's brother that followed his father's example and stayed in Middle-earth despite the growing danger. I think that Denethor's having siblings would really help connect the eastern second age stories to the characters of the first age that the viewers will have come to love.

 

[Haerangil]

As far as i am concerned only the falathrim were coastal-mariner elves...
the doroathrim and mithrim were just as much silvan-elves as the laiquendi, only more sophisticated, civilized silvan-elves... less feral and tribal and... wild.

The later mirkwoodelves and galadhrim we meet in the hobbit and lotr are fare closer to doriathrim than to laiquendi as far as i am concerned. The laiquendi were more lile a feral avari tribe when they first met their more civilized kinsmen from doriath...

 

[Arnorion]

Yeah it's really only close relatives of Lenwe/Denethor *in Beleriand* that are specifically is short supply, right?

Yes, it's my understanding that after the disastrous First Battle of Beleriand all of Denethor's close kin (in Beleriand/Doriath) have been lost. There's no reason we can't place some plausible relations back in Rhovanion. Someone had to take over the two groups of elves there and since Lenwe isn't mentioned after this point in the annals I think it is reasonable to put some of his other children in charge of those groups.

Also, we'll have to come up with a plausible reason why the Nandor separate, some going to the later Golden Wood on the west bank of the Great River and others remaining on the east side in Greenwood the Great. Also, it is unclear when this separation took place, either before the arrival of the Sindarin lords in the early second age or perhaps after. I'm not sure that the text gives us any reliable hints in this regard.

 

[Arnorion]

As far as i am concerned only the falathrim were coastal-mariner elves...
the doroathrim and mithrim were just as much silvan-elves as the laiquendi, only more sophisticated, civilized silvan-elves... less feral and tribal and... wild. The later mirkwoodelves and galadhrim we meet in the hobbit and lotr are fare closer to doriathrim than to laiquendi as far as i am concerned. The laiquendi were more lile a feral avari tribe when they first met their more civilized kinsmen from doriath...

We do have evidence of mariner elves at Edhellond, perhaps an outpost from Lothlorien before the loss of king Amroth. Generally speaking though I agree with your assessment. The elves of Doriath and Mithrim (and elsewhere in Beleriand) were just as devoted to their woods as the properly Silvan elves of Lorinand and Eryn Galen but their grey-elf distinction came from Melian and Thingol and the light and learning (civilization) that came from their instruction. The green elves of Ossiriand were certainly more rustic when they arrived in Beleriand but they were not Avari. They chose to come on the Great Journey but they later chose to remain in Middle-earth to protect it until that objective became in their minds unfeasible. They were perhaps functionally more like Avari but they didn't share that worldview.

As far as the elves we meet in Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, I've always thought that the Elves of Mirkwood were far more rustic and uncultured than their cousins the Galadhrim. It is unclear whether this additional grace and civilization among the south western group is due to their Noldorin Lady or their previous Sindaring kings (or perhaps some other factor).

 

[Faelivrin]

To clarify, by "Silvan" with a capital S, I mean only the Elves of the Vales of Anduin, not all Elves who like forests.

Certainly the Sindar and Nandor are both Teleri and are biologically close kin but their orientation (i.e. their chose purpose), at least as we have portrayed it here in SilmFilm, is rather different. The Nandor made the positive decision to stay in Middle-earth to fulfill the original purpose of elves to enrich the landscape, awaken the trees, and befriend the Ents (and to a lesser extent the Atani).

The Sindar on the other hand made the positive decision to press on towards Aman in pursuit of the light responding to the call of the Valar. The only reason the Sindar aren't there was due to the temporary loss of Elwe Singollo. Still they hold each other close kin and in great affection so we should certainly focus on that, perhaps holding the different purposes and objectives in tension with that.

I agree that the text gives us evidence of the Sindarin lords adopting into Silvan culture. Legolas is a prime example. His father Thanduil was said to be wholly Sindarin but he presumably took a Silvan wife and their child claimed the Silvan culture rather completely. As you say, that merging doesn't make them Nandor or even Silvan but it does move them closer culturally, less like an external takeover, a look I'm sure we want to avoid.

The way they've been depicted with having adopted different life-purposes does emphasize that they're separate cultures. I don't mean to say they think of themselves as the same people, but that they think of themselves and closely akin, and like each other. And people like Thranduil who went to join the Nandor wanted to quit being Sindar altogether (as far as I remember, it's said somewhere in Unfinished Tales, and some of this attitude is discussed also in "Quendi and Eldar").

We do have evidence of mariner elves at Edhellond

Those were Sindarin refugees from Beleriand, though.

The Elves in Lothlorien were a mixture of Sindarin, Nandorin, and Noldorin ancestry, since some refugees from Eregion ended up there. I figure that's why one of them had the Quenya name Rumil (although a real Noldo would think it's absurd to name yourself in a language you don't speak regularly .)