Concerns About Season Four

[Ange1e4e5]

I would say that all Noldor marriages have to occur before the appearance of Glaurung. That should be the event that makes clear all is not peaceful in Beleriand.

Okay, here is a more complete spreadsheet, now with mortal Men! Who are tricksy with their short lifespans; getting them to overlap appropriately is not proving so easy....

And I still haven't figured out what to do with Círdan. Or dwarves, really. Or even Thingol, for that matter. Part of the challenge is that the main characters of the Battle of Sudden Flame are Angrod, Aegnor, and the House of Bëor. Figuring out how to build that up appropriately in light of what comes before is so tricky!

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How about having a few scenes of interactions between Angrod and Aegnor and Thingol, since the House of Finarfin are on the best terms with Thingol because of their kinship via Earwen, to build up a dynamic before the Dagor Bragollach where Angrod and Aegnor are KIA.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Who are tricksy with their short lifespans; getting them to overlap appropriately is not proving so easy....

This is, I feel, one of the strongest arguments for giving the arrival of Men a full season rather than tacking it onto the elvish storyline of S04. The idea of expecting the audience to care about Beor or Haleth if we only see them for 1-2 episodes seems unfathomable.

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, exactly!

It becomes very obvious that if each of my columns is a single episode, then we are left with the entire Andreth story being a subplot of one episode during the Eöl/Aredhel storyline! And then the next we see of her, she's an old woman and they're both dead...only one or two episodes later!

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Do you guys think the Hosts will want to get to Beren and Luthien sooner rather than later?

 

[MithLuin]

I think we will find out on the 12th There are advantages to getting there sooner, but only if you do the rest of the story justice in getting there.

 

[Faelivrin]

Yeah... a lot of this right now, like Eol's story and where to end the season, depend on the Hosts' decisions that haven't been finalized yet.

I get what you mean about Glaurung's arrival now, MithLuin. I now recall the Elves being driven back to Dorthonion and... Eithel Sirion? "in dismay."

As for the timing of marriages, they can certainly all be before Glaurung arrives. Elves can decide to wait ridiculously long times after marriage before they have kids, or between kids. Finduilas can be 250 years older than her little brother Gil-galad, and only Men and Dwarves would think that's weird, or ask why.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Yeah... a lot of this right now, like Eol's story and where to end the season, depend on the Hosts' decisions that haven't been finalized yet.

I get what you mean about Glaurung's arrival now, MithLuin. I now recall the Elves being driven back to Dorthonion and... Eithel Sirion? "in dismay."

As for the timing of marriages, they can certainly all be before Glaurung arrives. Elves can decide to wait ridiculously long times after marriage before they have kids, or between kids. Finduilas can be 250 years older than her little brother Gil-galad, and only Men and Dwarves would think that's weird, or ask why.

Speaking of kids, maybe we have more Elven children in Gondolin and possibly Doriath, since they are mainly isolated from the war, what with Doriath being protected by the Girdle of Melian and Morgoth not knowing where Gondolin is.

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, I definitely think that Doriath is in denial about the war. No one brings up not marrying in wartime when Beren shows up - the objection is simply that he's a mortal and that isn't done.

Gondolin is a different story. They have a mixed Noldor and Sindar populace, but Turgon is in line to be High King of the Noldor and is rather paranoid when it comes to security. Aredhel's marriage needs to be portrayed as unwilling and unnatural in all sorts of ways - this isn't the primary one.

 

[Faelivrin]

I imagine that there were plenty of Elves who believed that the Siege would totally last forever (hello, Fingolfin!) and therefore cheerfully had children not long before the Dagor Bragollach. But I agree it's a good idea to emphasize the Elves who didn't think that was a good idea, and portray them as the majority.

Personally, I think Thingol (with Melian's advice) likely did know the Siege wouldn't last forever. His people, not necessarily.

We could even have a conflict about Dior and Nimloth deciding to wed. Sindar would tell them that this should not be done during wartime, and Dior having to explain that he's probably mortal and has a limited opportunity to reproduce, to Elves who had never thought of that before. It could be an opportunity to show how much trouble Elves have understanding and relating to humans if it didn't even cross their mind until then.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I imagine that there were plenty of Elves who believed that the Siege would totally last forever (hello, Fingolfin!) and therefore cheerfully had children not long before the Dagor Bragollach. But I agree it's a good idea to emphasize the Elves who didn't think that was a good idea, and portray them as the majority.

Personally, I think Thingol (with Melian's advice) likely did know the Siege wouldn't last forever. His people, not necessarily.

We could even have a conflict about Dior and Nimloth deciding to wed. Sindar would tell them that this should not be done during wartime, and Dior having to explain that he's probably mortal and has a limited opportunity to reproduce, to Elves who had never thought of that before. It could be an opportunity to show how much trouble Elves have understanding and relating to humans if it didn't even cross their mind until then.

Plus, Thingol has no heirs apart from Dior. We wouldn't want a succession crisis down the line, would we, particularly since Celegorm tried to steal Doriath from Thingol by kidnapping and attempting to rape Luthien.

I've been bringing Gondolin up a few times and nobody's responded to my suggestions on more kids in Gondolin.

 

[MithLuin]

My response was that Turgon is very paranoid, so while Gondolin is very secret and very safe, the sense of doom hanging over them is likely also very strong. They're an 'ever vigilant!' kinda group.

So, it could go either way. Obviously, Turgon is not going to oppose the marriage of Idril and Tuor. But are the streets full of children there? I'm not sure.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

My response was that Turgon is very paranoid, so while Gondolin is very secret and very safe, the sense of doom hanging over them is likely also very strong. They're an 'ever vigilant!' kinda group.

So, it could go either way. Obviously, Turgon is not going to oppose the marriage of Idril and Tuor. But are the streets full of children there? I'm not sure.

If it counts for anything, there are children amongst the Gondolin elves when they flee during the Fall of Gondolin.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

My response was that Turgon is very paranoid, so while Gondolin is very secret and very safe, the sense of doom hanging over them is likely also very strong. They're an 'ever vigilant!' kinda group.

So, it could go either way. Obviously, Turgon is not going to oppose the marriage of Idril and Tuor. But are the streets full of children there? I'm not sure.

The marriage of Idril and Tuor, and their subsequent child-having, can be explained by the fact that Tuor is mortal. He does not have time to wait until they have peace.

 

[amysrevenge]

Children in Gondolin would be a non-obvious symptom of Turgon's failure. It would be considered a safe place while the rest of Beleriand isn't.

Could be an opportunity to use something good to demonstrate something bad.

 

[Faelivrin]

Half-awake brainstorming:

Turgon also is the guy who responded to Ulmo's warning -- a warning Ulmo told him was coming back in Nevrast -- by saying "Nope, we're not leaving. No way Morgoth can get to us in here."

In any case, what Turgon thinks doesn't necessarily reflect what his people think. I think Ange1's suggestion would be plausible. I don't think we need to take anything from the Lost Tales uncritically though -- a lot of Lost Tales material likely won't fit with the LotR and the Silmarillion, such as the overweight, cowardly, lazy Salgant.

I think this is an issue that can be used to highlight the pride of the Noldor -- it's not just that they take a snooty or patronizing attitude towards "lesser" peoples (which is supposedly everybody) but that a lot of them are convinced that their superiority is unbeatable. I do still agree that the majority won't be having kids during the later part of the Siege, though.

 

[Haerangil]

a lot of Lost Tales material likely won't fit with the LotR and the Silmarillion, such as the overweight, cowardly, lazy Salgant.

Hey what's wrong with him? I kind of like that character...

 

[MithLuin]

Salgant is not too far from Saeros, and obviously Saeros stayed canon in Tolkien's latest writings. So, it is possible to keep Salgant more-or-less as written. .. but hardly necessary that we do so.

If we keep him like that, we add nuances to make him tragic, not scorned. So we have scenes with him teaching elf kids to play the harp, and reassuring them that they are safe in the hidden city, far from the dangers outside. And we show him at a military parade, obviously out of place and uncomfortable, but with his house being fond and indulgent rather than embarrassed by him. Etc. So if he runs and hides in terror during the attack, the audience pities him like the death of a child soldier.

Or we change him completely. We are changing Rog's name for sure.

 

[Haerangil]

I like him as the one not perfect elf.

 

[Faelivrin]

Alright, I accept your point that Salgant can be a non-perfect Elf, or a cowardly Elf. What I'm not comfortable with are the details -- I don't think Eldar, especially Noldor, should ever be laughable, and I don't think they should be pitiful or pathetic unless something truly awful has happened to them to make them that way. And I don't think Elves in Gondolin would be overweight or obese -- obesity is a disease inflicted by modern processed food, or really unlucky genes. Gondolin isn't the land of soda, corn syrup, and MSG.

Given the distinction between male hunters/warriors and male healers/non-combatants in Laws and Customs of the Eldar, a person like Salgant wouldn't normally be a soldier in the first place, unless he was a vainglorious blowhard (like Saeros). I think he would have to be somebody who chose to be a hunter in a very peaceful time (perhaps in Valinor, more likely growing up in Gondolin) and then found that for him that didn't translate into being a warrior. Or have him experience something really shattering in wartime that leaves him with some sort of PTSD. Maybe he was involved in the Kinslaying at Alqualonde and can't get that horror out of his mind, but is expected to continue being an officer anyway, and feels a duty to try. Or maybe he's a traumatized escapee from Angband, from a time before escapees were routinely outlawed.

Or just tone down his cowardice to something much less extreme than lying in bed.

 

[Haerangil]

I agree about the laughable thing. I also agreee that salgant should not be grotesque fat, but he can be a bit more squat than the common eldarian beauty ideal. What i like about salgant was his ambiguous character, he is described in many ways so negative, but young earendil liked him as the old elf used to play and laugh with the kid... and i like that, an old elf who is not that perfect, who is not the ideal of valor and beauty we expect from the noldor, but he is a kind character to the small half elven child.