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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
It’s about 23 years. Maedhros is chained to Thangorodrim in 1498 YT, the Sun rises in 1500 YT, and Fingon rescues Maedhros in 5 FA. A Year of the Tree is 3500 days, about 9 years plus the months of January to July.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Realistically, it is not going to feel like 25 years. We're going to have Fingon rescue Maedhros in the first episode of Season 4. So, there will be some undisclosed amount of time between Season 3 and Season 4. It should be a few years, yes.

Maedhros will look like he's been up there for awhile - emaciated, suffering from exposure, and the like. But...the viewers aren't going to think he's been there for years, because, well, eventually you'd die, and they're going to be thinking a matter of weeks/months, not decades. We will show the settlements around Lake Mithrim being more established, so they'll know time has passed (not just a matter of hours/days), but unless we flash up "5 years later" on the screen, it won't feel like *that* much time has passed.

But we do have the Sun now, so we do have years, so we can certainly have the characters remark upon how much time has passed since the Sun has risen, if we like.

I'm not sure what Maedhros will look like after his ordeal, but ... certainly, he will be weak and wasted away.


Art by Katherine Karina Chmiel
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Well, I’ve learned a person can survive for three days without water, three weeks without food. Can Elves survive for longer?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, elves can survive for longer.

And who is to say that Morgoth is not magically sustaining Maedhros in some way? After all, he forces Húrin to sit on a chair and watch the fates of his kin play out, so there's nothing natural about Húrin's survival during that imprisonment that lasted years and years.
 

cellardur

Active Member
Yes, elves can survive for longer.

And who is to say that Morgoth is not magically sustaining Maedhros in some way? After all, he forces Húrin to sit on a chair and watch the fates of his kin play out, so there's nothing natural about Húrin's survival during that imprisonment that lasted years and years.
Elves can survive longer, but nothing close to years. Tuor and Voronwe look set to die very soon.

I think this is case similar to Hurin. Morgoth wants to torment Maedhros and draw out his suffering. It's also a sends the message, he can take the 'Noldor King' and there is nothing the Noldor can do about it. He is displayed in plain sight and they can't get to him.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Elves can survive longer, but nothing close to years. Tuor and Voronwe look set to die very soon.

I think this is case similar to Hurin. Morgoth wants to torment Maedhros and draw out his suffering. It's also a sends the message, he can take the 'Noldor King' and there is nothing the Noldor can do about it. He is displayed in plain sight and they can't get to him.
I thought Tuor was allowed to live with Idril and be counted among the Eldar. More than what was allowed for Beren and Luthien.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Yes, elves can survive for longer.

And who is to say that Morgoth is not magically sustaining Maedhros in some way? After all, he forces Húrin to sit on a chair and watch the fates of his kin play out, so there's nothing natural about Húrin's survival during that imprisonment that lasted years and years.
This is good, but maybe needs to be explicit.

There is a trend for Tolkien bad guys to "gloat over" captives (see Frodo in Cirith Ungol, for example). I assume this to mean some variation of Bond-villain exposition of the horrors that await the captive? (The phrase "gloat over" might mean something different, but that's always how I read it.)
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I expect that there will be a scene in Season 3 Episode 13 where Morgoth will 'question' Maedhros, and certainly gloat over the fact that his brothers didn't barter for him. The aftermath of that scene will be Maedhros being stapled to the cliff. So, yes, Morgoth can promise to sustain him in his torment so that his spirit isn't able to flee Morgoth's realm, etc, etc. There's a reason Maedhros starts out begging Fingon for death as soon as it's determined Fingon can't reach him. Maedhros would have counted death as a rescue at that point.

I know that we will want to at the very least imply torture as part of Maedhros' captivity, but I think we will try to keep the on-screen stuff as mild as possible. Morgoth's words will have to serve to induce the necessary horror at that situation.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I expect that there will be a scene in Season 3 Episode 13 where Morgoth will 'question' Maedhros, and certainly gloat over the fact that his brothers didn't barter for him. The aftermath of that scene will be Maedhros being stapled to the cliff. So, yes, Morgoth can promise to sustain him in his torment so that his spirit isn't able to flee Morgoth's realm, etc, etc. There's a reason Maedhros starts out begging Fingon for death as soon as it's determined Fingon can't reach him. Maedhros would have counted death as a rescue at that point.

I know that we will want to at the very least imply torture as part of Maedhros' captivity, but I think we will try to keep the on-screen stuff as mild as possible. Morgoth's words will have to serve to induce the necessary horror at that situation.
I was thinking about leaving him there as a challenge for the Noldor, only for Fingon to find out that he can’t get Maedhros free without severing his arm. Which Morgoth makes sure to leave out. As explained by Bane in The Dark Knight Rises, hope can be just as much as an instrument of torture as can anything else.

“There's a reason why this prison is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the centuries has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to freedom. So easy... So simple... And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope. So, as I terrorize Gotham, I will feed its people hope to poison their souls. I will let them believe they can survive so that you can watch them clamoring over each other to "stay in the sun." You can watch me torture an entire city and when you have truly understood the depth of your failure, we will fulfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny... We will destroy Gotham and then, when it is done and Gotham is ashes, then you have my permission to die.”
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I will argue for the rescue to be seen in episode 2 next season. We will want to establish the situation before Fingon sets off and he shouldn't find Maedhros immediately. But I guess that it won't feel like 23 years anyway.
 

Marielle

Well-Known Member
I was thinking about leaving him there as a challenge for the Noldor, only for Fingon to find out that he can’t get Maedhros free without severing his arm. Which Morgoth makes sure to leave out. As explained by Bane in The Dark Knight Rises, hope can be just as much as an instrument of torture as can anything else.
That could work, but I don't think the Noldor know/can see where Maedhros is. Fingon had to go looking for him. And, if I recall correctly, nearly gave up the search when he started singing?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
That could work, but I don't think the Noldor know/can see where Maedhros is. Fingon had to go looking for him. And, if I recall correctly, nearly gave up the search when he started singing?
It took him five years or 23 years depending on our scale. That might be stretching it for how long Fingon can look.
 
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Marielle

Well-Known Member
Well, we'd have the problem the other way around, too. If they can see him up there, why leave him in agony for 5 or 23 years?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Well, we'd have the problem the other way around, too. If they can see him up there, why leave him in agony for 5 or 23 years?
Looks like we got ourselves a Morton's Fork. Either we make Fingon look stupid by looking for 5 or 23 years, or the Noldor look cowardly for not trying to rescue him when they find out where he is.
 
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Marielle

Well-Known Member
We could more easily, I suspect, make Fingon look noble -- if desperate -- if he's still searching 23 years later than make the Noldor sympathetic if they knowingly leave him up there for 23 years. Others could try to dissuade Fingon, mostly likely Fingolfin and Maglor, by kindly pointing out that if there's been no sign of Maedhros for 23 years, he's almost certainly dead. "The only evidence we have that he's alive is the word of the thrall of Morgoth, who lies." This way, we'd be emphasizing Fingon's devotion, especially if we make it clear that he doesn't really expect to find Maedhros, but loves him too much to abandon him when there is any hope (Estel*), left.



Side note: did everyone else who plays LotRO get the Amdir thing before last session? I didn't.
 

cellardur

Active Member
We could more easily, I suspect, make Fingon look noble -- if desperate -- if he's still searching 23 years later than make the Noldor sympathetic if they knowingly leave him up there for 23 years. Others could try to dissuade Fingon, mostly likely Fingolfin and Maglor, by kindly pointing out that if there's been no sign of Maedhros for 23 years, he's almost certainly dead. "The only evidence we have that he's alive is the word of the thrall of Morgoth, who lies." This way, we'd be emphasizing Fingon's devotion, especially if we make it clear that he doesn't really expect to find Maedhros, but loves him too much to abandon him when there is any hope (Estel*), left.



Side note: did everyone else who plays LotRO get the Amdir thing before last session? I didn't.
I like this.

We can even have Fingon planning to sneak into Angband itself. In an argument with Maglor, the latter can ask rhetorically 'How do you plan to save him, sneak into Angband by yourself and drag him out.' To everyone present this would seem to conclude the debate. Even the audience might think Fingon has given up, until we see him packing his bow, sword, a hood and heading off to Angband.

We could even play it exactly like the Silmarillion. He climbs up to the top looking for something weakness in Angband, he finds none. So in desperation he sings his song and Maedhros hears.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I like this.

We can even have Fingon planning to sneak into Angband itself. In an argument with Maglor, the latter can ask rhetorically 'How do you plan to save him, sneak into Angband by yourself and drag him out.' To everyone present this would seem to conclude the debate. Even the audience might think Fingon has given up, until we see him packing his bow, sword, a hood and heading off to Angband.

We could even play it exactly like the Silmarillion. He climbs up to the top looking for something weakness in Angband, he finds none. So in desperation he sings his song and Maedhros hears.
So he’d be the first person to try and get into Angband by stealth, a precursor to Beren and Luthien?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Okay, first of all, no one is searching for anyone for 23 years.

Fingon doesn't even realize Maedhros is captured until the two Hosts interact with one another. So, that happens (at the earliest) in FA 2. Fingon rescues Maedhros in FA 5. So, we're talking three years (max) between Fingon's discovery that Maedhros is a prisoner, and his attempt to rescue him.

The obvious reason why there has been no rescue attempt is because they think he cannot be rescued. He's Morgoth's prisoner; what are you supposed to do about that? The assumption would be that he's deep in Angband's dungeons. So, no, he's not stapled to the front door or put in any obvious location. He's on the side of a cliff that you would only see if you were randomly mountain climbing in Thangorodrim, which is not a thing the elves do.

Morgoth already bartered with the Sons of Fëanor. They turned down his offer. They have to assume their brother is dead, or at the very least a prisoner forever. They don't think there is a rescue attempt to be made.
 
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