Orcs

They are shorter than men (some almost as tall as lesser men, some as short as Hobbits), quite squat and brawny, have broad and rather flat faces, slant eyes that look cat-like, hairy ears and long hairy arms, have rather dark skin (swart, swarthy, black, grey... whatever than means), and look like (to men of the West) degraded and repulsive (whatever that means) versions of the (to Men of the West) least lovely types of the Men of the East (Whatever than means). And they have Claws and Fangs.

personally I disliked most classic depictions of Orcs in Fantasy illustration...
I always tended to imagine them more like primitive men of some sort rather than PJs Zombie-Orcs...

I might have been strongly influenced in my views by old RPG illustrations of this kind:
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so I don't know if this is still a live topic, but to the extent that it's academic:

Tolkien's admission of the word 'Orc' being connected to Latin Orcus (Greek Horkos) potentially says something about the kind of control that Melkor/Sauron exerts over them; because these figures are clearly parallels of Hades, which is supposed to be Mandos' role. if they've prevented the Orcs from returning to the halls of Mandos, it seems that the only way they could have done this is through the Orcs' own oaths (surely their necromancy isn't powerful enough to bind a living soul against their will): if Iluvatar holds vows sacred, then it seems the soul belongs to whom it is sworn.

personally, I always thought this would be a weak excuse to bind a spirit, as there's no limit to the vows you can swear; and if they contradict one another, it's impossible to be held to them all, in life or in death. maybe first oaths take priority - or maybe in some cases, last ones do. on the other hand, one could see how the lingering divinity in the early heroic ancestors could lend itself to pronouncements of fate and the laying of curses. but to me it seems like any kind of earthly specter, or poltergeist, what-have-you, would rather tend to be a reflection of the former individual's attachment to their own life or possessions, or of their megalomania perhaps, as it somehow seems more fitting for great ruins and tombs to be haunted than any other kind of place.

you have to admit that it's just odd for some of the most impressive structures ever built to have no other purpose than to house a corpse. the more I dwell on that, the more bizarre and uncomfortable it feels.

in any case, I've always associated "shades" with Men specifically, who in Tolkien's view were born to die (even though the abode of shades in Hades/Mandos seems to be reserved for the Elves, raising the question of why Men would have shades at all, and how are theirs ultimately different from that of Elves, who were not meant to die) - but he seems also to have directly imported his Catholic belief in possessing demons, whose original natures can be difficult to place.

there is an ancient text - and I'll have to locate the exact source(s), whether it's the Ethiopian Book of Enoch or something else - that claims demons originate from the Flood, being the drowned offspring of the fallen Watchers, whose anger is still the cause of storms and disease and other things. (these offspring were supposed to have been the Gigantes in the wars of the Titans, and there is so much more to be said about that and its connections to the Old Testament - but probably not right here). in Tolkien's mythology, the Flood would have corresponded to the fall of Numenor, which is where Sauron himself became a demon, or rather, lost his body. while we already have explanations for many of the spirits that came to Arda, it may be that Numenor was the birthplace of necromancy. I'd be very interested to know if anyone has something to add to that - if there are any references that might confirm or contradict it.

on the related topic, one of the most interesting things I ever read on the subject of the rebel "angels" was the Cave of Treasures, which describes them as descendents of Seth who went down from their holy mountain to join with the tribes of Cain. it's the only place I know of where the Watchers are portrayed as mortals, and their heavenly abode as a mountain, which turned to fire after they descended, preventing their return. there are aspects of this story that seem to be echoed in the Silmarillion, even in the Silmarils themselves, vaguely; I highly recommend having a look, and comparing it to the rebellion of the Watchers as other sources tell it.

we aren't told all that much about Mandos' halls. Valhalla may be as good a comparison as Hades, or maybe it's something inbetween what you'd normally expect from the two, although both could potentially be interpreted in completely different ways: and I've often thought that they would have to be, if only in order to make "room" for all the souls who would eventually come to inhabit them - unless it's possible to return from there, and be reincarnated. it may be that Orcs could find the same accommodation there as any other spirit in need of sanctuary, rest and healing. but if so, Melkor and Sauron both would be sure to try to recoup their losses early on, and deny them this.

Sauron at least has proven his ability to extend a creature's lifespan at the expense of its own essence (creating wraiths, liches, etc, although this would be unnecessary with Orcs, which begs the question of how Orcs age); and he seems to be able to animate corpses, whether it's by telekinesis, or demonic summoning, or even binding the souls of the deceased to their own remains: but by and large, it seems that Orcs are not undead - and yet many of the undead may once have been Orcs.

in Peter Jackson's thing, it seemed like some of the Orcs had been badly wounded in the past, and stapled back together. if they are somehow being reconstituted (and in strongholds controlled by Sauron, the Ringwraiths, or other necromancers, I don't see why they wouldn't be), it may be very difficult for them to die at all - but when they do, if they've taken oaths, sold their souls (as the name of Horkos suggests), their spirits could belong to their master.

what the necromancers are able to do almost seems to contradict what was said about Melkor being unable to create life, or the semblance of life (or should we say unwilling?); but the fact is that if this weren't so, we would find ourselves in a situation where anything at any time could turn into a monster and attack. that they seemingly have unlimited power to manipulate life is plenty terrifying enough.

whew... so are you ready for something dark

the paragraph where the creation of the Orcs is described as the "vilest deed of Melkor" hints at a great deal that's literally unspeakable. for instance, when we look at the Orcs and see so many bestial traits, and we're told that this is from breeding, the obvious question is breeding with what. whatever it is, I don't imagine it's consensual - until of course it is, but you're in a whole new world by then. needless to say I found this passage to be one of the most haunting in the whole work.

even without this element, which is almost certainly there, the only thing that could transform Elves into instinctively pitiless, cannibalistic animals, apart from pure sorcery, practically speaking, would be the kind of soul-destroying prisoner's dilemmas that are a crime against the senses to witness, which an Elf's captivity in Utumno would almost certainly consist of, because of Melkor's unfathomable hatred for them (although this is before his capture and age-long incarceration).

to irreversibly corrupt the souls of the Elves would take far less time than the corruption of their bodies: why he would waste any time in doing so is difficult for me to imagine, unless he found something to savor in watching them slowly lose their minds - or if in the very midst of his torturing and murdering, he still longed to be worshiped. if any of his Elven prisoners were somehow fortunate enough to be left to rot in chains in the gloom, or merely forced to perform menial, degrading or backbreaking labor, I would still suspect that he played on both sides of that fence, as the terror of not knowing what is happening to their fellow prisoners - or worse, their loved ones, or their own offspring (I won't call them children) - could arguably (maybe inaccurately) be worse than anything he might do to them in fact.

as perverse as it would be to explore those possibilities, and it isn't something on which you would want to focus: there is something I'm bearing in mind, that it wasn't mortal Men whom Melkor turned into Orcs - it was Elves, whose frailties are comparable to our strengths, which Melkor, who had corrupted even the Ainur, was able to mold into something absolutely evil. while their resistance to his tortures could be powerfully inspiring, in the end it would only break your heart. the 'overwhelming terror and cruelty of Morgoth' is important to associate with the kinds of things one does not speak of: as casually as we may mention it here, to the Elves, that name itself is surely a curse - something that can only be uttered with a great deal of effort, and that is usually substituted with some other euphemism ("nameless", etc). that he was given this name for stealing the Silmarils seems... unjust. that this was the "vilest deed of Melkor" can only be doubted by reason of what may yet come to light.

but no matter how far Orcs are fallen from Elves, their souls would still seem to be that of tortured, broken, hopelessly perverted Elves, even if the only divine attribute that still remains in any of them is fear for their own life (albeit whose worth has long departed). but could you have possessed Orcs? heck, absolutely - why not. but again, I think the Orcs show us what we have the potential to become, if we allow obedience to become our only guiding principle.

their imprisonment also reminds me of concentration camps, as others have suggested; and I imagine that in the pits of Utumno, one might find experiments and purges that go beyond anything the Nazis ever did. only this would not have been "mere" ethnic cleansing, even though Melkor obviously intended to eradicate every last trace of the Elves' nobility, along with any Elves who wouldn't have it - but would he have even allowed anyone to resist him? if it were possible to dominate anyone past the point of death, I don't imagine he let many die without first claiming their souls. while there is no telling how many he murdered only to gain knowledge, and despite that all of his prisoners were subject to torture for its own sake, their only hope lay in the fact that he meant to transform them into something he could use - even if this purpose was secondary.

you couldn't argue that he had any more love for Orcs than he did for Elves - but Orcs surely provided him amusement. as often as he might reward the creature that showed an eagerness to do any horrible thing that the master required (or punish those who did not), he might also arbitrarily make an example of them for having dared to think that they could earn his favor - or for trying to avoid pain in general. Melkor would have wanted them to suffer as much as to have them serve: many of his creations were (or are) probably in pain for all of their existence, while being even further bound to everlasting service and torment. if there is anything that could be done to degrade, humiliate, harden or deform these creatures - anything that could make them uglier - he most certainly would have done it, because this is exactly what their natures and appearance now reflect.

if only for the sake of their ancestors, and every unimaginable thing they endured, the Orcs are surely deserving of pity and mercy: and yet Melkor saw to it that there is only one form such mercy could take, in having created something that is completely irredeemable except by a swift death. I would expect some Elves at least to be very conscious of this, to even mourn the deed as something Morgoth forced upon them; but prolonged exposure would probably harden such attitudes, which would be yet another thing to lament.

whether or not Orcs have any memory of their Elven ancestors, they still speak, and transmit oral history - and I have the impression that some of them are able to write, as there are many ways that writing itself could serve obscene and evil, or even sorcerous, purposes. but it seems unlikely that any generation would recall having once belonged to another race; although no doubt they are acutely aware of the kind of life they'll never have, even if their perceptions of their distant kin and all that they do are impossibly warped and reinforced by Melkor's lies. while they would naturally envy those who were allowed to remain free and innocent, living in peace, this in itself would be too easily turned against Melkor, unless they were convinced that it was the Elves who abandoned or cursed them, or were somehow otherwise to blame. likewise, he would have to corrupt their value of beauty, lest they should seek to repossess it, rather than destroy it or offer it up to him: so despite that beauty itself might trigger violent hatred and disgust, stemming from a deep-felt sense of what will never be theirs, it would also be necessary to foster a kind of scorn for those things, by having them mature and even grow somewhat comfortable in the hate, perversion and violence that had become their life's only purpose. revenge would be their greatest joy, their only love; and only in the suffering of others would they ever find delight - and this they would owe to Melkor's own greed for beautiful things. it's not much of a silver lining at all.

I dunno if that's worth two cents, but I think that's about as much as I wanna dwell on it for now

it just leaves the fact that, with all of this behind him, and an age of imprisonment to deepen his rage, he was nonetheless able to walk free in the full view of the Valar, and never give himself away until he was ready to attack. that is a topic unto itself.
 
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In a way i would like the idea that many orcs are just soulless beasts but some orcs do own ancient souls of fallen elves ( or men?) which had been reborn, reembodied or forced into the orcs body via some sort of sorcery.

Thos could mean these intelligent soul-orcs could be irredeamable because of their original sin. And sauron could even try to gather more elven souls and corrupt them to be embodied again as orcs...
 
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I have had a lot of catching up to do in this conversation, but I do have a proposal for the Orcs in Mandos thing.

Iluvatar, in his mercy, grants them release from the circles of the world, despite their elvish heritage. They have suffered enough.

OR

Melkor finds a way to funnel their spirits back into newly born orc bodies, thus explaining their apparently unlimited memory.

I still like the idea of Iluvatar having mercy on them, or of Melkor having to tread somewhat carefully in order to create them in the first place: because while he may have been able to hide from all of the Valar, he could not have hidden anything from Iluvatar, and it's difficult to imagine how Iluvatar could have sat quiet - unless there really were only three times in which he would directly intervene in his own Theme. as pitiless as that might seem, it might be something worth sticking to, if Tolkien didn't violate it himself: because the Valar represent the powers of Iluvatar in Arda - all of them. it's his mind that they are a part of. that the mind of Iluvatar could be flawed is uncomfortable to consider - but we don't know for certain that Melkor is a flaw.

but now I'm wondering whether the Orcs deserve mercy as they are - or do they now deserve to suffer? if there is nothing good left in them, do they belong in hell? or does nothing belong in hell? is the most 'hateful' aspect of Melkor's creation the fact that he has created something all his own, something purely evil, that is no longer worth saving, or even sparing?

the good in us wants everything to be in harmony, or at peace: but there are some crimes that seem too severe to go unpunished, when we're actually faced with them - and the reason we want to punish of course, is so that the perpetrators understand the pain that they've inflicted. but in Sauron's world, or Morgoth's... there is nothing but pain, and there are things that just go altogether beyond: things that maybe could only be portrayed tastefully as incomplete or visually confusing scenes in the background; things with no explanation which you would actually have to pause and examine, and really think about, to figure out what it's doing there, what it represents; things we wouldn't draw attention to, but that could be used to fill the empty space, to illustrate the scope of their business, their lack of idleness. the diversity and creativity of evil is as much an aspect of fantasy as anything else, which people can't help but find interesting, because it adds something to the character of the world, in spite of itself. it was the monsters that drew me to mythology as a child, after all - and I'm fascinated by what Sauron could have created, in particular.

but there is one question I had about this post, about the Orcs' unlimited memory? I'm not sure what this is referring to, was wondering if someone could clarify

Necromancy is a progression of soul manipulation started with the Maiar and continued with the orcs. That was the origin of the term based on the idea Marie had like a year ago.

also this - the 'soul manipulation started with the Maiar'
 
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There is not really a reference to the Orcs memory... there are a few lines by Shagrat and Gorbag about the bad old days, but i never interpreted those lines inj a way that hinted they talked about their own personal memory back then.
 
There is not really a reference to the Orcs memory... there are a few lines by Shagrat and Gorbag about the bad old days, but i never interpreted those lines inj a way that hinted they talked about their own personal memory back then.


There have actually been quite a few who have suggested that orcs are "ageless" in the same way as the elves. They typically cite their origin from the elves, the conversation you mention here, and the fact that the goblins recognize Orcrist and later Glamdring on sight.
 
I was under that impression myself, although glowing swords would seem to be as easily recognizable from their legend as from memory...

while Orcs may naturally be ageless, one also gets the impression that due to their violence, and the violence they incur, few probably live to be ancient.

but where Elves grow in power and beauty as they age, do Orcs also grow in power and ugliness? thinking of the great goblin in The Hobbit, I wonder if they literally grow in size, or develop sorcerous powers
 
I was under that impression myself, although glowing swords would seem to be as easily recognizable from their legend as from memory...

while Orcs may naturally be ageless, one also gets the impression that due to their violence, and the violence they incur, few probably live to be ancient.

but where Elves grow in power and beauty as they age, do Orcs also grow in power and ugliness? thinking of the great goblin in The Hobbit, I wonder if they literally grow in size, or

The case for unaging orcs is not one I subscribe to, but it is not one I can dismiss.

As to the swords glowing blue, the fact that Sting also does this is indicative of the likelihood that this is not a unique trait to these particular weapons.
 
I always thought it would be an awkward enchantment for a sword, liable to give its bearer away if they were trying to sneak up on an enemy

but these enchantments would make perfect sense for a city like Gondolin, where you would want to know if there are spies lurking about, and track them down. that these weapons belonged to Turgon and company is significant though - and "Sting" was probably created as a companion either for Glamdring or Orcrist. but it's odd that Gondolin could have been taken by surprise with enchantments like these, unless one of the consequences of having a festival was that no one was carrying a weapon

the enchantment itself is interesting, in that it mainly reacts to Orcs, begging the question of what's unique about Orcs for an enchantment to react to. also curious is the fact that Glamdring is described as shining white in the presence of the Balrog...
 
Yes. Gondolin on the other hand was not talen by surprise but simply overpowered plus a spy ( and according to version a whole company of trairors with him) from inside. And maeglin was a high position in the council and would have known all coty plans, secret ways and weapons and other inventions of defense...
 
the enchantment itself is interesting, in that it mainly reacts to Orcs, begging the question of what's unique about Orcs for an enchantment to react to. also curious is the fact that Glamdring is described as shining white in the presence of the Balrog...
I figured the extra-shiny was something that Gandalf was doing to enhance the sword, in addition to being a visible demonstration of the "Fire of Anor" to which he referred :cool:
 
I figured the extra-shiny was something that Gandalf was doing to enhance the sword, in addition to being a visible demonstration of the "Fire of Anor" to which he referred :cool:

I forgot all about his ring - but if anyone could do that, it would be Gandalf

as Turgon's own sword though, it's interesting to consider that its enchantment may have been different from the others
 
So how do we make Orcs more dangerous from the Dagor-nuin Giliath to the Dagor Agraleb? Bigger and stronger? Better weapons? Smarter tactics? More numerous?
 
Do they have to be stronger or more dangerous?

The Enemy has to deal with two things: The Sun and the Noldor. They have to try to do something about these things, but I'm not sure they succeed this time around.
 
Do they have to be stronger or more dangerous?

The Enemy has to deal with two things: The Sun and the Noldor. They have to try to do something about these things, but I'm not sure they succeed this time around.
Well, something to build up tension before the Battle begins, though tension amongst the Sindar and Noldor could do part of the trick.
 
I already had thrown in the idea that now the first man- orcs appear...
i don't think we necessarily have to go for the bigger and stronger cliche, that's where molrgoth has his trolls for...

But i think we could introduce a type of orc that is not necessarily taller and stronger, but more intelligent, less beastlike or robotic, multiplies faster and is less vulnerable to sunlight and mor " mannish". I was thinking of similarities to the Druedain. .
 
I think that they multiply fast and that could be the buildup. Morgoth has many problems at the beginning of season 4 but the main one is that so many orcs have been killed. The fast growth of the orc army could be scary enough.

I’m reluctant to making orcs less vulnerable to sunlight. It would make me wonder why they didn’t become even less sensitive to the Sun, or why trolls never went through that process.
 
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