Sauron's Morgoth Moment

The challenge is that Sauron likely says 'Screw the Music,' long before he says, 'I'm doing this for ME.'

I would say the first happens by Season 3-4, whereas the latter doesn't happen until the 2nd Age (Season 10?).
 
Hi all! Long time listener first time post-er. Just been listening to the podcast, Session 2-18 (catching up after iTunes unsubbed me somehow).

Really interested in the orc-project section and the question on when to fully reveal Mairon as Sauron. Clearly on the introduction of the orcs, Sauron still needs to be ambiguous, so it would make sense for the way that the orcs turn out to be somewhat unintended - i.e. Sauron has tried to meld the elves to his will and has distorted them in a way that he did not want - and at this point he could actually be partly ashamed of the outcome. Morgoth, motivated by malice towards the elves would be delighted with the mockery and this could cause some interesting tension between Morgoth and Sauron in which Sauron ultimately falls in line.

The other I wanted to ask is; how do people feel about Sauron's defeat by Huan and dismissal by Luthien as being an important moment? Her words to him hold him to a pretty clear mirror I think.

Anyway apologies for butting in, especially if this has been since discussed! I would love to hear people's thoughts regardless.
 
Mr Poggin said:
Anyway apologies for butting in, especially if this has been since discussed! I would love to hear people's thoughts regardless.
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First of all, welcome! Second of all, never feel the need to apologize for re-introducing topics or materials!

The question of possible tension between Morgoth and Sauron is one I want to keep: I think it could keep the villain storyline of Season 3 more interesting, instead of it being an "Orc! Smash!" sort of time for them. But you're right, at this point Sauron would eventually have to fall in line.

Huan and Luthien beating him down is going to be so much fun. And I agree, her words to him are of some significance. Where we want him at that point does play into the larger question here, and I for one am not quite sure how "Eeevill!" he ought to be at that point. Well, really, I suppose the question is how evil he thinks himself to be at that point, and how many/few misgivings, hesitations, and justifications he's giving himself at that point.
 
Thanks for the welcome and quick response!
I think the fact that he is caught at a point of weakness there is interesting as well. In strength, he can pretend to himself that he is on the right side, but his defeat at this point could be an opportunity for introspection on his part. As in he can question for a moment what path he is choosing to go down. Does he not end up fleeing back to Morgoth as well? That could be telling.

It is again part of a slow corruption, but it could be a crucial point.
 
I think Sauron, stationed in that tower all by himself, would be seething at how is potential is being squandered. Think of how much good he could be doing if he wasn't shackled to this worthless pile of stones! He's not mad at his boss, precisely, but super frustrated at what he sees as an error on his boss's part.
 
amysrevenge said:
I think Sauron, stationed in that tower all by himself, would be seething at how is potential is being squandered. Think of how much good he could be doing if he wasn't shackled to this worthless pile of stones! He's not mad at his boss, precisely, but super frustrated at what he sees as an error on his boss's part.
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Yeah. I think he's ticked to be there; but Poggin raises an interesting point: does Luthien's & Huan's stomping cause any "crisis of conscience" in Sauron?

EDIT: perhaps "crisis of faith", either in Morgoth, himself, or the cause, is a better term.
 
In my mind, the fall of Gondolin, assuming all the Sauron involvement we've been bandying about, is the place where the audience loses their sympathy for Sauron and he becomes a bad guy in their eyes.

Assuming Sauron somehow arranges for Gothmog's demise as well as Gondolin's sacking, I would desire an audience reaction of:
[Gothmog dies] Yeah, about friggin' time!
[Some horror befalls non-combatants of Gondolin] Wait, Sauron did that - what a jerk.
[The horror intensifies] Oh my...

ETA: The faster we can swing around that hinge, the better.
 
RE: Tol-in-Gaurhoth
I would argue that a slight "freeing up" of conscience would make sense as well, if Sauron is partly attracted to Morgoth due to his power. At this point in the story Sauron is on the winning team, and he comes out to confront Luthien and Huan full of that confidence. Being bowled over unexpectedly has got to have an effect. I guess what I am going for is that Sauron has a "know thyself" moment and accepts that this is what he is going to stick at regardless.
Also it has got to be convenient for a slow corruption arc for Sauron to not be privy to some of the worst abominations of Angband at this time.
 
I had not really considered Sauron as a sympathetic character by the time we get to Beren and Lúthien (which is before the fall of Gondolin). He's a villain responsible for some gruesome on screen deaths in that story arc.

But it is true that we could see Sauron in Seasons 2-4 as someone whose life is slipping out of his control, and he's powerless to avoid getting swept away. That could generate some sympathy from the audience, as Sauron is someone who chose Melkor for his power...and then maybe doesn't always like what that power does.

It also sets it up as a situation where Sauron's hunger for power is seen as, in a way, his desperate scrabbling to regain control over his own life. That can generate some unexpected sympathy for him, despite his ruthless deeds. Not only does it 'explain' his motivations, but it helps the audience follow the path of how he got there.

[In the story Red Dragon, the serial killer had an abusive childhood, and was isolated because of his harelip, which he's terribly self-conscious about. While you don't exactly want him to win, you do see how lonely and hurt he is...and he is someone who turned to bodybuilding so he'd never be weak again. The audience is a lot more likely to have sympathy with this guy than with most serial killers in films.]

 
I haven't watched it but I'm part of the common culture so I know the gist of it: Walter White (Breaking Bad). There's a guy who turns from hero to villain in a complex way. Could be a thematic model to consider.
 
MithLuin said:
I had not really considered Sauron as a sympathetic character by the time we get to Beren and Lúthien (which is before the fall of Gondolin). He's a villain responsible for some gruesome on screen deaths in that story arc.

But it is true that we could see Sauron in Seasons 2-4 as someone whose life is slipping out of his control, and he's powerless to avoid getting swept away. That could generate some sympathy from the audience, as Sauron is someone who chose Melkor for his power...and then maybe doesn't always like what that power does.
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Given the storyline we've given him this season, I'm concerned that "flipping the switch" on the audience, expecting them to suddenly no longer have sympathy for Sauron, would be confusing at best and fail at worse. He's evil, yes, but he's not the big bad, or the big thug in our story. He's going to seem likable just by comparison. And modern TV/Film series have plenty of villains who are responsible for horrible things that audiences love and defend.
 
Oh, he's already awful. But the audience is going to be on his side in the rivalry with Gothmog, and that is the "in" for him to being overall sympathetic. Until the babies start falling off cliffs (or whatever) in Gondolin.

Even in the Beren and Luthien story, almost all of the people he kills are enemy combatants - other than that one Unhappy guy's wife. With motivated reasoning you could excuse that of someone you're already sort of rooting for.

But if we really underline, with clever editing I think, Sauron's direct control over the brutal horrific sacking of Gondolin simultaneous with the ending of the rivalry that up until now has been our "in" to rooting for him, we can use that former sympathy as a lever to swing about to loathing from the audience.
 
amysrevenge said:
Oh, he's already awful. But the audience is going to be on his side in the rivalry with Gothmog, and that is the "in" for him to being overall sympathetic. Until the babies start falling off cliffs (or whatever) in Gondolin.

Even in the Beren and Luthien story, almost all of the people he kills are enemy combatants - other than that one Unhappy guy's wife. With motivated reasoning you could excuse that of someone you're already sort of rooting for.

But if we really underline, with clever editing I think, Sauron's direct control over the brutal horrific sacking of Gondolin simultaneous with the ending of the rivalry that up until now has been our "in" to rooting for him, we can use that former sympathy as a lever to swing about to loathing from the audience.
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It would be rather easy, actually, to have First-Age Sauron be a sort of Loki figure -- not in terms of motivation/personality, but public sympathy. If only because he's the only major villain left with subtly and panache.
 
I think the Annatar storyline will work much better if we maintain at least some audience sympathy for Sauron throughout the First Age. When we get to the One Ring and Numenor, that can be used up, but we don't have to make him an unsympathetic villain here, I agree.

I just hadn't really thought about how to do Season 5 with a sympathetic Sauron...but Beren is new to the audience and Sauron isn't, so....that is interesting.
 
I think we can have it both ways, to an extent. If we have a Sauron sympathetic through Beren and Luthien, but who is no longer sympathetic past Gondolin, then Annatar can remind the audience of the time back when Sauron was sympathetic and make them even more angry to be reminded of how he "fooled" them back then.
 
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