Sauron's Morgoth Moment

I'm not really a fan either. It would give us more time to show what, exactly, he is doing, but other than that I can't think of a good reason to do it.

I find it a bit easier to restrict Saurons involvement to the period of Maeglin's capture.
 
quote: ,a young Eärendel mourned him because he had "told him quaint tales or played ."drolleries with him at time

i just found this quote about salgant... doesn't seem to have been all bad that guy,he obviously also had a likeable side..
 
I understand the impulse to have Sauron involved, especially as Gondolin is, to my memory, the first time elves successfully kill Balrogs, and since they seem to start with Gothmog, it's tempting to have the Abhorred's fingerprints all over that. But Sauron in Gondolin before Maeglin's capture removes any need for Maeglin's capture at all, and I'm not sure "his betrayal was bad and all, but not really necessary, Gondolin was already doomed" is the vibe we're going for. And making Salgant be actually Sauron doesn't appeal to me, either.... it seems important to me, somehow, that there are elves, who at first perhaps a bit venial and less noble than others, but still among the Good People, who are corrupted by their friendship with Maeglin. He's like a mini-Morgoth, bringing down into ruin all those around him, starting with those who admire him.

If we really need Sauron to be involved in the sudden ability of the elves to off Balrogs, we could have Morgoth require Maeglin to "check in" every once in a while, deep within the mines and hidden from sight. Sauron could serve as his parole officer, and uses these meetings for his own purposes...
 
I agree that getting Sauron into Gondolin too early ruins the story - Morgoth wouldn't be desperately searching for a place his top lieutenant has already infiltrated. The entire Hurin story depends on Morgoth not knowing where Gondolin is *at all*.

We need Maeglin's betrayal to be pivotal, not incidental. So, we would have to preserve the story of his capture and meeting with Morgoth.

How we involve Sauron in Gondolin's anti-balrog tech development is up in the air. He could do it remotely, via Maeglin. I don't really see any opportunity for Sauron to switch himself out with Salgant, though.
 
I would say having Sauron do his thing while Maeglin is captured seems the option which interferes with the themes of the story the least.
 
I agree with MithLuin (#85). I have said earlier that I like the idea of Maeglin introducing ideas on killing Balrogs that he got from Sauron, but other than that, I think Sauron should stay away before the fall of Gondolin.
 
MithLuin said:
I agree that getting Sauron into Gondolin too early ruins the story - Morgoth wouldn't be desperately searching for a place his top lieutenant has already infiltrated. The entire Hurin story depends on Morgoth not knowing where Gondolin is *at all*.

We need Maeglin's betrayal to be pivotal, not incidental. So, we would have to preserve the story of his capture and meeting with Morgoth.

How we involve Sauron in Gondolin's anti-balrog tech development is up in the air. He could do it remotely, via Maeglin. I don't really see any opportunity for Sauron to switch himself out with Salgant, though.
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"Pivotal, not incidental" is exactly what I was trying to say, but said so much better.

Not only do I not see an opportunity for Sauron to switch himself out with Salgant, I'm not sure we want him to. We're still a bit away from fleshing out the Gondolin storyline, much less the characters, but Salgant is one of our few good examples of petty, venially bad elves. Yes, I know he proves treacherous, but he's almost timidly so... or at least, I've always thought of him so. Am I remembering correctly that his reaction to Maeglin's plotting is not being able to sleep at night? It's... just such a little thing. I stay awake at night because I'm trying to figure out whether a friend is mad at me, not because I've learned of a plot to betray and murder or enslave everyone I know.

And, when we get there, I'm inclined to actually amend the Salgant story-line, so that he isn't in the know. I don't know why Maeglin told him in the Lost Tales version: it's not like he's going to benefit in any way. He's not really a co-conspirator: he either dies there or becomes a thrall, and he's hardly necessary for the plot to succeed. I'd keep him as Maeglin's lackey, and arguing with Maeglin against Tuor, but I'm not sure he needs to be in Maeglin's confidence. But that's for years in the future.
 
Yeah, the deepest we need to go now is this: the degree to which Sauron is responsible for Gothmog's death in the future should impact how we set up their relationship now. If we intend for the responsibility to be none or small, then we shouldn't spend too much early screen time setting up their direct head-to-head conflict. They can be at odds, but less... personally, more professionally. But if we are building toward a resolution where Sauron directly (or close to directly) causes Gothmog's death, then we can set up a strong personal conflict knowing it will resolve.

Basically I just don't want a strong setup to peter out with Sauron being surprised when Gothmog just doesn't show up to work one day.
 
I do like the idea of Sauron being involved in Gothmog's death; it goes nicely with Tolkien's theme of evil being self-destructive. But I do think that can be set up in Maeglin's interrogations, as some have suggested, or in a parole officer check-up sort of thing after his betrayal. I was intrigued at first by the idea of Sauron actually being in Gondolin, but I don't see how it would work, in the end. And I don't think we need it.
 
Agreed - as long as the influence can be made obvious (which I'm sure it can, if we plan for it), then Maeglin as the tool is perfectly cromulent.
 
Exactly - we'll have an entire political structure of Gondolin that will have to be resolved in its final days, and which characters play which role and how they die is going to be more complex than we've currently thought up.

Wanting Sauron to be involved in Gothmog's demise is fine. How we do that is something we'll work out in Season 8 (9?). He doesn't need to enter Gondolin, but if his role is limited to a single scene with Maeglin (during his capture), that might be seen as too little. If it's dissatisfying, we'll probably have to involve him more directly in some way.

It may turn out that we'll have a character (not Salgant) who can be swapped out with Sauron to allow Sauron to interact directly with the people of Gondolin [but after Maeglin's betrayal, not before]. Or we can restrict ourselves to the secret meeting(s) between Sauron and Maeglin. We do have time to decide.
 
I'd really like Sauron to contact Maeglin outside of Gondolin, not enter secretly or in disguise. I think it would raise a few unwanted questions.
But I do think he could meet Maeglin at a place where they risk bumping into other elves; Sauron could try some invisibility.
 
I think after a day of reflection I also definitely prefer keeping Sauron out of Gondolin physically - although he will still at times in the future be acting directly, in the long term he will eventually be more of a behind the scenes manipulator (at least once we get to the 3rd Age), and this would be a nice pre-taste of that.
 
do you really want to go that way having the dark side a hand in inventing anti-balrog weapons?

i believe demin-slaying blades should be able to slay demons because they are holy, and i can't see how that would work if saurin hsd his hands in their invention.

if anybody shozld have his hands in the smithing of those hily blades it should be ulmo, not sauron.
 
Haerangil said:
do you really want to go that way having the dark side a hand in inventing anti-balrog weapons?

i believe demin-slaying blades should be able to slay demons because they are holy, and i can't see how that would work if saurin hsd his hands in their invention.

if anybody shozld have his hands in the smithing of those hily blades it should be ulmo, not sauron.
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Are we so sure that the blades need be holy, at least in our adaptation? I don't remember Tolkien ever saying such, or really in any way making such a fuss about the anti-Balrog tech (read, swords) as we are here. And I would quibble with drawing an equal sign between balrogs and demons: there is a lot of truth there, but Tolkien's Ainur don't function exactly like the traditional Christian understanding of angels, nor the balrogs like demons -- not a whole lot of tempting going on, for example.

Furthermore, in this adaptation at least, we have depicted the Balrogs as in some way trapped in their dark and twisted forms: a punishment for destroying the Lamps. If they are so bound, as the Wizards are in their bodies, then likely they can be slain like the Wizards are*. This can be difficult, remain a heroic feat that calls for a special sword (if we want to make it literal, maybe they're so hot the weaken most swords that try to pierce them, or something. I don't vote we do, but I'll throw it out there), but not require, as it were, a "holy" weapon.






*Never thought of this parallel until just now, but isn't it something we could play with? The balrogs in some way foreshadowing the wizards? That intrigues me in any number of ways.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I would say having Sauron do his thing while Maeglin is captured seems the option which interferes with the themes of the story the least.
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Welllllll...except that it does very much mitigate Maeglin's betrayal. Because if Sauron is promising him 'weapons that can defeat balrogs' and Maeglin is making sure the Gondolindrim are armed to fight balrogs...for an invasion that Morgoth has planned and will implement without any further feedback from Maeglin (he's not 'unlocking the gate' to let them in or anything), Maeglin can very much see himself as still working for the good guys. Or at the very least, cutting a deal with Sauron as a representative of Gondolin, not *just* betraying Gondolin's secrets to Morgoth for personal gain.

In the original story, his sole motivation is to steal Idril from Tuor. He keeps silent about the impending doom of the city and does nothing to stop or prepare for it.

So while this may not mess with Tolkien's themes (inevitable defeat to the Noldor, death to all traitors, bad guys will turn on each other, attacks happen during festivals), it does alter Maeglin's character motivations. It also limits Sauron's intervention to a single 'deal' with the captive Maeglin, and allows Maeglin to be the agent to carry out his plan...will there be enough payoff for the end of the Sauron/Gothmog rivalry there when Gothmog dies at Ecthelion's hand (er, helmet)? Is Sauron going to play any role in the battle?
 
MithLuin said:
Welllllll...except that it does very much mitigate Maeglin's betrayal. Because if Sauron is promising him 'weapons that can defeat balrogs' and Maeglin is making sure the Gondolindrim are armed to fight balrogs...for an invasion that Morgoth has planned and will implement without any further feedback from Maeglin (he's not 'unlocking the gate' to let them in or anything), Maeglin can very much see himself as still working for the good guys. Or at the very least, cutting a deal with Sauron as a representative of Gondolin, not *just* betraying Gondolin's secrets to Morgoth for personal gain.

In the original story, his sole motivation is to steal Idril from Tuor. He keeps silent about the impending doom of the city and does nothing to stop or prepare for it.

So while this may not mess with Tolkien's themes (inevitable defeat to the Noldor, death to all traitors, bad guys will turn on each other, attacks happen during festivals), it does alter Maeglin's character motivations. It also limits Sauron's intervention to a single 'deal' with the captive Maeglin, and allows Maeglin to be the agent to carry out his plan...will there be enough payoff for the end of the Sauron/Gothmog rivalry there when Gothmog dies at Ecthelion's hand (er, helmet)? Is Sauron going to play any role in the battle?
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yeah... good point. Ugh... yeah, it could be seen as "I gave in under torture, but I'm totally trying to make up for it now!" which is certainly not what we want. Grr....

Could we (grasping at straws to keep the idea) push it further back? Have one of Eol's dwarf friends be "detained" while Sauron takes his guise and teaches Eol what's necessary? Sauron is certainly capable of playing the long game....


EDITED TO ADD: alternatively, we could set it up so that Sauron could have saved Gothmog during the battle, come to his aid, and openly choose not to do so, leaving him to his fate. I wouldn't go so far as to have S actually help kill him, not wanting to take that away from Ecthelion, but S could definitely choose not to prevent its happening.
 
Welllllll.....giving Maeglin's character more nuance and making his fall more complicated or tragic is not necessarily a bad thing. That is definitely a conversation for a later time, though.
 
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