Sauron's Morgoth Moment

MithLuin said:
I think the Annatar storyline will work much better if we maintain at least some audience sympathy for Sauron throughout the First Age. When we get to the One Ring and Numenor, that can be used up, but we don't have to make him an unsympathetic villain here, I agree.

I just hadn't really thought about how to do Season 5 with a sympathetic Sauron...but Beren is new to the audience and Sauron isn't, so....that is interesting.
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I think we'll have a better idea of how to pull that off after we see how he develops in Seasons 3&4; but still, I think the "likable villain" trope can be applied here. Whether we go for the Magnificent Bastard or the Draco in Leather Pants trope with Sauron, we'll have plenty of time to making him both evil and a fan-favorite.
 
Well...you can intentionally exploit that, too. But yes, that's more of a fandom reaction than a fault of the writing.
 
Knowledgeable fans will know what's coming. Post Last Alliance, Sauron just gets kinda... boring. He's long since lost his handsomeness, and as he claws his way back into relevancy across the 3rd Age, he returns with a distinct lack of character or attitude or anything interesting.
 
It's true that the guy we cast as Sauron played Octavian in Rome. I think he would do just fine with the Magnificent Bastard style villain...even if it's a more behind-the-scenes role like Littlefinger from Game of Thrones, since he's not the one in charge. Morgoth will have to be aware that Sauron is his cleverest servant, while Gothmog is the most loyal. I don't expect Morgoth to particularly *like* that...but there will surely be times he'll use that.
 
Hadn't thought this through to the end, but... a) Would Morgoth find out that Sauron set up Gothmog and b) would he care, since from his perspective Gondolin was a huge victory?
 
Well, it is *mildly* suspicious that the elves went from 'we can't kill balrogs' to '2 dead balrogs!' in a single battle, but Morgoth is more likely to be paranoid about the remnant of Turgon's forces that escaped than to look closer to home for the reason.
 
After 4 pages of this discussion, I imagine things are murkier rather than clearer. :p

I will maintain that the difficulty of identifying a 'Morgoth Moment' for Sauron is tricky because of the different natures of their falls. Sauron's fall is quite gradual, and the place he ends up (while still a 'Dark Lord') is rather different than the place Morgoth lands (even if they are both walking down a path that leads to the Void...it's a *different* path to get there).

Based on the Session that sparked this thread, what is meant by 'Morgoth Moment' is the point of no return after which a person can no longer repent of their actions. Theologically, they become irredeemable by their own dedication and commitment to evil (ie, a lack of interest in repentance), rather than by having committed some action that is beyond the pale (no 'Unforgiveable Curses' in Middle Earth). You can be Darth Vader, slaughter millions, betray your own family, and...have a moment of repentance. It doesn't mean that what Vader did wasn't evil or that he 'wasn't really' bad - it's that he has regrets. (Sooooo many regrets!) Hardening your heart and relishing in your actions is the line we are talking about crossing - no more second thoughts.

The 3 moments we are comparing to - the balrogs' destruction of the Lamps in which they lose their wings, Morgoth's destruction of the Trees in which he is 'locked in' to his physical form and burned hand, and Gollum's last chance to turn back on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol - After these events, all these characters go on to be fully committed to their path (which was already evil), and this results in their ultimate [eventual] destruction. We will never see them waver, wondering 'what if?' they had gone a different way, after they cross that line.

Sauron losing his body at Numenor, and never again being able to play 'Annatar' certainly parallels those moments for the balrogs and Morgoth. But I think he is 'fully committed' to the evil path by the time he makes the One Ring. So, I would say that the Second Age is Sauron's Morgoth Moment. His 'Stairs of Cirith Ungol' moment will be whatever causes him to *not* go to Valinor and ask the Valar's pardon. His 'fully committed to an evil path' moment (like the Balrogs when they follow Melkor's 'suggestion' to take out the Lamps) will be the forging of the Ring. And his 'ah, shoot, no more switching my body to whatever I want it to be, curse the loss of my native Ainu power!' moment will be the destruction of Numenor.

If that helps with clarity....
 
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MithLuin said:
After 4 pages of this discussion, I imagine things are murkier rather than clearer. :p
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Mission Accomplished! :cool:

But more seriously, I wanted to raise this question because it'll affect how we portray Sauron for years to come. If we continue to depict him (*looking over my shoulder to make sure the ghost of the Good Professor isn't about to strangle me) as appealing/sympathetic/likable, as he likely will seem just in comparison to Morgoth, Gothmog, and Glaurung, we need to spend time/energy/efforts in making him less and less so as the series goes on: and that includes thinking through the moment when we want any sympathy or hope for him to be gone. Saying "he's evil, you shouldn't like him!" *clearly* isn't enough in modern storytelling.
 
I have a suggestion if you're looking to include Sauron as taking part in the Fall of Gondolin. Gondolin is a closed society, so having someone new appear would be noticed immediately. So there has to be a way to incorporate Sauron into the society of Gondolin without raising suspicions. My suggestion is that Sauron, fleeing from his debacle with Beren and Luthien, happens upon one of the groups that Turgon has been sending to try and plead for mercy from the Valar. Being a Maiar, he is able to backtrack and find the Hidden Way and confirm the belief that Gondolin lies somewhere in the Encircling Mountains. He then, again, he is a Maiar, sneaks into Gondolin and assume the guise of Salgant, the Lord of the House of the Harp.

We already know that Salgant was a supporter of Maeglin. He could be the one that betrays Maeglin to the orcs when Maeglin is taken by Morgoth. We know that during the battle, he defies the order of Turgon and once his men rebelled against him, he fled and disappeared, never to be seen again and his fate is unknown. This seems like a perfect candidate for a disguised Sauron.
 
So what you're saying is that while Tuor is asleep, Sauron should kill Voronwë and replace him :p

No, I know that's *not* what you said. The challenge here, as you point out, is the extremely closed nature of the society of Gondolin. This is worse than white Europeans trying to sneak into closed Japan under the Tokugawa shogunate. Everyone is going to know you don't belong.....

There is extremely limited traffic out of Gondolin, and even more limited traffic back in. Even worse, one person in the party must know the location of the Hidden Way for this to work, so at least one person has to be an elf of Gondolin vouching for companions to enter.

Aredhel leaves and returns many years later. Her guards returned more immediately. In one version, these guards are none other than Ecthelion and Glorfindel, but then it looks bad if they're overcome by scary woods + giant spiders. Having one guard lost in the confusion, replaced, and return to Gondolin with no one any wiser is probably the best chance you have to implement this idea. But that's too early for Sauron; he can't disappear until after Beren and Luthien, and Celegorm doesn't go after Luthien until after the loss of Aredhel.

Voronwë was the last of the mariners Turgon sent; there were earlier ships. But all the ships were lost - none of them reached Valinor, and none of them returned to Middle Earth. No mariners ever returned to Gondolin (except Voronwë). We could change that. But then Sauron would have to find the mariners, stealthily kill/replace one, join their band, and sneak back into Gondolin with no one any wiser. His companions would know he's off. And there is no way Salgant was ever a mariner.

Outsiders making it into Gondolin are limited to Maeglin, Eol, Hurin and Huor, and Tuor. This does not help us.

I will not say it can't be done...just that it is indeed difficult to pull off in a convincing manner.
 
Well there's ways and then there's ways. He could be in the form of a horse or a dog or something otherwise innocuous (maybe not the best idea, just brainstorming). Or he could go unseen, other than as the whisper of a feeling of unease as he passes by in the shadows, only appearing to Maeglin. Or something else. Nobody knows where Gondolin is or how to get in, until they do...

I mean, really, all he needs to do is a)collect intel and b) influence Maeglin. That's the extent of what he needs to accomplish in order to meet his goals. He can do that pretty discretely. He could even do it from outside, if we can arrange for Maeglin to come and go fairly often.
 
Before Maeglin was captured Sauron in Gondolin would not make any sense.After his capture and release Sauron could, like a shadow or vision, follow or possess Maeglin or appear and influence him. I´d like the idea of Maeglin looking into the mirror and Sauron looking back at him. When hew knows where Gondolin is he also could appear there as a shadow or Vampire... after it's location is known that should not be a problem- all he has ito do is escape the Guards ans Great Eagles.
 
about salgant... was he really a villain? i always had the impression hat he was more of an outsider, he dud not fall ichivalryideal of chivalry of elven warriordom, he was not valiant but. coward and did not appeal to the elven ideal of manly beauty, as he was obese, but he doesb't seem to have been a bad person.
 
I agree - he is clearly not a character we are meant to have any respect for, but I would not go so far as to call him evil. I imagine Ray was using him for his friendship with Maeglin more than anything.
 
Hmmm...how about this scenario?

Maeglin is with another member of the House of the Mole when he ventures outside the mountains and gets caught. This character can be introduced when Maeglin comes to Gondolin - perhaps he is the first elf to befriend him, and he leaves his own House to join Maeglin's new House. His character can be whatever we like - a grasping political climber weaseling his way in to being close to (potentially) the King's heir, or an older elf who feels badly for Maeglin and takes him under his wing to introduce him to Gondolin society, or one of Aredhel's guards who feels guilty for losing her all of those years ago and wants to make it up by serving her son, or a younger elf who looks up to this mysterious newcomer who has seen the world outside of Gondolin....whatever.

So, Maeglin gets a reputation for his mining expeditions, and one day decides to venture further afield. This elf could be his accomplice, egging him on, or the voice of reason saying 'we should go back...' but be unable to gainsay his lord. Again, whatever fits his character. It gives Maeglin someone to talk to about what he's doing, so that's always helpful. They go out, they get caught...and Sauron enters the picture. Now, in the original story, Maeglin is questioned first by an unnamed underling (why not Sauron?) before being taken to Morgoth when it's clear he's going to break. After he spills his knowledge, he is allowed to go back to Gondolin.

But seriously...why would Morgoth trust him? There's obviously a huge chance he'll think better of it and warn the elves of the impending attack. So...enter Sauron again. 'So sorry, but your friend is in no shape to return, [and we don't trust him]. But you can't return without him, or people will get suspicious. So, I'll just have to go in his stead.' Or it could be a surprise reveal to the audience after they're back in Gondolin that the elf sidekick has been replaced by Sauron. Sauron takes on the form of the friend, while the other elf is left in Morgoth's custody or killed. Maeglin returns to Gondolin with Sauron, who is in a position to watch Maeglin's every move.

...and have the opportunity to carry out his own betrayal, of the anti-balrog-charm variety. Impersonating an elf of the House of the Mole would give him the opportunity to work on weapons, after all.

We'll have to see if that fits all of the characters' motivations we'll need at this point in the story. I will point out that this mitigates Maeglin's actions *somewhat*, as he is more still-a-captive than a free agent with Sauron breathing down his neck like this. But knowing Maeglin, rather than earning any sympathy points for this, he will instead take it as an opportunity to lord over Sauron as his supposed underling in public. Emo goth characters are too busy feeling sorry for themselves for anyone else to feel sorry for them :p

That's the best way I can think of to smuggle Sauron into Gondolin without inventing a separate diversion story of how it happened. If we decide we need him there in person, that's a way of making it happen.
 
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