Sauron's Morgoth Moment

Yeah I think we can put a bow on this for now - Sauron will have enough of a role in Gothmog's demise to make it worth investing in their personal animosity now. Exact details can wait. Sound right?
 
Sounds right. It's fun to talk about Maeglin and Gondolin now, but we've got a lot of time before then and now, and who knows where we'll be at when we get there!
 
So easy to go OT but the way my brain works while I'm checking in at work is such that these smaller more general chunks are easier to process, while larger but more specific chunks (such as deep dives into individual episodes) are more difficult.
 
Marielle said:
Are we so sure that the blades need be holy, at least in our adaptation? I don't remember Tolkien ever saying such, or really in any way making such a fuss about the anti-Balrog tech (read, swords) as we are here. And I would quibble with drawing an equal sign between balrogs and demons: there is a lot of truth there, but Tolkien's Ainur don't function exactly like the traditional Christian understanding of angels, nor the balrogs like demons -- not a whole lot of tempting going on, for example.

Furthermore, in this adaptation at least, we have depicted the Balrogs as in some way trapped in their dark and twisted forms: a punishment for destroying the Lamps. If they are so bound, as the Wizards are in their bodies, then likely they can be slain like the Wizards are*. This can be difficult, remain a heroic feat that calls for a special sword (if we want to make it literal, maybe they're so hot the weaken most swords that try to pierce them, or something. I don't vote we do, but I'll throw it out there), but not require, as it were, a "holy" weapon.
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I just wanted to point out that Balrog-slaying, as a quality of a weapon, -to my understanding- is not a matter of technology in the close sense, but of spirit. We know for example that some elven weapons had some sort of "spirit" or "will", at least a special quality and I feel uncomfortable with the fact that this quality would come from Sauron.
 
MithLuin said:
Welllllll.....giving Maeglin's character more nuance and making his fall more complicated or tragic is not necessarily a bad thing. That is definitely a conversation for a later time, though.
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Well, what would Morgoth DO if he wants to corrupt somebody? he would dig into his mind and search for his hidden secrets and oppressed desires and would use them to twist and corrupt their will and personality.In maeglin's chase he found unhappy love for Idril, political ambition, envy of tuor and frustration of the feeling of having been omitted. That would be quite a lot of material Morgoth would be able to use to change Maeglin into something useful to him.
 
Haerangil said:
I just wanted to point out that Balrog-slaying, as a quality of a weapon, -to my understanding- is not a matter of technology in the close sense, but of spirit. We know for example that some elven weapons had some sort of "spirit" or "will", at least a special quality and I feel uncomfortable with the fact that this quality would come from Sauron.
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Absolutely. When I started this train of thought, I was using the term "technology" very figuratively.
 
But are we committed that Sauron have some hand in Gothmog's destruction? Either by giving the elves the means to destroy him or by active refusal to come to his aid? That's really all we need to decide now, I think, given that we apparently have set up the two of them as rivals in this season, and it would be highly unsatisfactory to just drop that later on.
 
I am fine with that, yes. We will have to see how their rivalry plays out over the next 6 seasons before we even get to Gondolin, and that will include both the introduction of Glaurung and the defeat of Sauron by Huan and Lúthien. We just want the possibility to be there that Sauron will have some part to play in the Fall of Gondolin....and that he will be connected to Gothmog's demise. We can fight over the details later.
 
The last 30 posts are great to read. Nothing to add. Let's see how our villains develope over the next seasons before we decide.
 
I was recently reminded of the Host's request that while Melkor is playing nice in Valinor, he should never outright lie to the Noldor (or to the Valar). He is, of course, terribly manipulative, but he's using truths (and half-truths) to get his points across. He makes the Valar pay for their secrecy in dealing with the Noldor, basically.

What about Sauron? We know he's a master manipulator (as the Gorlim incident demonstrates). Is he also bound by a 'what I told you was true, from a certain point of view' clause, or is he an outright liar? I ask, because it tends to come down to whether or not someone is a true believer in the cause, or just doing what they have to do to get results. The idea that someone in Faerie can't lie to you, but has to trick you into doing something dangerous to you is obviously an interesting and compelling take, but is it part of Sauron's story?

What reminded me of this was Supernatural's Lucifer - when he first meets Sam Winchester, it's in a dream, where he's masquerading as Sam's dead girlfriend. Certainly counts as deception (and is therefore rather Gorlim-esque). He's portrayed as a bit of a skeezy salesman, really, but one thing Lucifer says is that he will never lie to him. The statement is all the more striking coming from the Father of Lies, of course.

 
I think every master manipulator knows that using the truth is essential to a successful lie. In the extreme, telling someone something obviously wrong that is easy to check out is a kind of lying that's bound to fail. This means that a really successful lie should contain a large amount of truth. Sauron obviously knows that. It isn't consistent with the everyday understanding of lying however, so people will instinctively feel that elements of truth is evidence of sincerity and honesty. Lucifer uses this in your example, and so does Melkor. I guess Sauron does, too.
 
Yes, my example is psychological warfare more than temptation, so it's all manipulation meant to confuse the enemy rather than persuade at this point, but also using his confidence/certainty to erode the certainty of his opponent. Where the deception comes in tends to be what is left out, what someone neglected to mention or explain - and his promise to never lie or use tricks is obviously not to be taken at face value. [Someone *is* going to trick Sam into saying 'yes' to being the vessel of an angel, but that won't be Lucifer, oddly enough.]

But there is an underlying faerie tale rule that people are bound by their word, so if they promise, they have to carry through, even if they were tricked into the promise. And even a character as evil as a devil can't lie under certain circumstances. I guess I was asking if we were planning to evoke that at all with Sauron. Will we hear him outright lie? Or are his lies going to be very bendy versions of the truth?
 
I think that by the time we get to Numenor, Sauron is entirely comfortable with lying. First Age Sauron, however.... maybe he doesn't. It is, after all, far more challenging to simply manipulate the truth.

By the way, Marie, following our conversation the other day, my wife was compelled to binge-watch all of Season 12. Thanks....


;)
 
I think Sauron will lie if he has to. Why not? He is already a guy who puts ends before means. He was some kind of spy in season one, which meant he had to give less importance to truth, even of that just meant lying by omission. Now he has to deal with the Balrogs and the power struggle in Angband and I think he won't hesitate before lying to Gothmog. So he's turning more and more corrupt and if lying works I'm sure he'll lie.
 
I haven't watched Season 12 yet...I'll have to catch up sometime soon.

And I agree that Sauron shouldn't have any reason to avoid lies, so I guess I brought this up as another way to distinguish him from Melkor. But it's also part of the 'sympathy for the devil' issue if the audience sees him lying to get his way early on.
 
I guess it would be possible to interpret lying in different ways. I mean, it could be a sign of Sauron being a manipulator and add dangerous ruthlessness to his persona, but it could also be taken as a sign of weakness.
Perhaps both? ;)
 
I'd even like to talk about whether or not to have Mairon telling petty lies in the days before he turns to Melkor's service.
 
Yes as I've said before, I think his fall is characterised by his lack of moral core; his essence doesn't have a stable continuity, which makes it easy for him to manipulate others and lowers the threshold and the guard against lying, it is his key to using magic and to manipulation of reality and to controlling spirits. So yes, I think he should tell one or two petty lies early on.
 
Reading through the script so far again...

I always had following scene in mind when it came to sauron or morgoth and captured elves...

There is morgoth and a small elven child or teenager ( i had tu/ tuvo from lost tales in mind, but i don' t know if he'll make an aüpearance in silmfilm later...)

The morgoth tells the child not to be afraid and he mustn' t fear him, and that he will teach him and make him his pupil the elf asks " teach what" and morgoths answer is " pain!"

I had morgoth in mind for the scene, because i was thinking of the lt story... But it could actually ne sauron ...
 
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