Agreed, as stated above. I also pointed the battle only starts to seem really hopeless once the main curtain is breached.Helm's deep is no open field battle, it's a siege and with sieges the besieger is ALWAYS in the more difficult position,
Merry is specifically talking about the Uruk-hai marching out of Isengard, and Gandalf specifies Orcs.Not sure about the dunlendings at all, i think the entire host leaving isengard counts 10000 INCLUDING the Dunlendings
Are you talking about Erkenbrand here? Because Eomer's emerging from the caves was in front of Saruman's army from what I understand. The effectiveness of the surprise attack upon the Uruk-hai rear cannot be understated, as I pointed out above.The orcs really were surprised because eomer could engage brutal full force into their unsuspecting back
Again, we are perfect agreement. This is stated above as well.Let's face it the orcs were dispersed/scarrered by the sudden two side attack from the unprotected back and the at that moment very unlikely sally, but who really killed them were the Huorns!, not the Rohirrim...
at the gladdenfields 2000 orcs,mostly lesser ones, managed to route out 200 númenorean elite... that's not all too bad!
We landed on a total of 5000, I think. I think that Rhiannon's breakdown works alright.I’m at the other end of the issue: Have we decided how many elves we have in the different parts of the Dagor Aglareb?
You know that is hard to say and That difficulty is what i am all about.I acknowledge that the gladden orcs are probably not the elite, not the best equipped, but they have among them a number of well trained, well equipped barad-dur orcs plus they have the surprise and an evil will driving them. The numenoreans are total elite and well equipped, but also only light equipped as they are equipped to travel not to battle.So, given that this 10:1 ratio is Orcs vs. humans (given, probably amongst the best ever) in open combat would you say that 10:1 might not be enough for Orcs vs. Calaquendi?
The numbers will grow pretty high over the years; Turgon fields 10,000 at the Nirnaeth and I’m not certain if he had the largest host in the Union.Ok so you’re not in agreement on the elven numbers. 3000-6000 (but landing on 3000) or 5000.
My 50 cents (or other insignificant amount of cash) is: I think Fingolfin leaving 500 behind with Aredhel sounds fair. He probably takes more, so at least 750. Let’s make it an even 1000. Hey let’s make that a standard elven army size. Let’s give Turgon an even 1000. Let’s give Finrod, Angrod and Maedhros 1000, plus 500 cavalrymen (Fëanoreans). That’s 6000. In the end though, I’ll of course settle for less, or more - it’s just a suggestion.
Remember though that few elves marry and have children, especially since there’s a war and a ban, so the numbers we decide on now will grow only a little over the years.
Ok. So, is that a Gondolin thing exclusively? Or do we see those numbers across the different elven camps?The numbers will grow pretty high over the years; Turgon fields 10,000 at the Nirnaeth and I’m not certain if he had the largest host in the Union.
I think even if there were a full population of 300.000 noldor in beleriand, a number that is high but not totally unrealistic, an army of 3000-6000 men is large for them, large but again not unrealistic.
5000 elves, 8000 angbandians, then another 12000 angbandians...
that would still be a HUGE and astonishing victory! Yet, those would be numbers not totally unbelievable in comparison to many historical battles... i think 5000 elves beating a total of 20000 orcs(including other creatures) is still REALLY good! Not totally out of realism, yet it does in no way diminish their heroism.
There’s 17 years between the Dagor Bragollach and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, so I don’t think that the increase is across all camps, particularly in Dor-Lomin where there is a plague in F.A. 469 (even so they fielded their entire fighting force and died to a single man; I consider that very foolish as future events show). However, with Gondolin where they are relatively isolated from the Siege and in Doriath as well, there could be an increase.Ok. So, is that a Gondolin thing exclusively? Or do we see those numbers across the different elven camps?
If so, does that happen during the years before the Dagor Bragollach? If not, when?
Well one could think they could field far larger numbers, however i am not sure... as i said their numbers increase slowly.Their general population really consists of NO old people i agree , and very few children... so the bulk of population COULD fight, in theory, for some time, except that still people need to grow food.But these would be Lmost inexpandable... once their dead, they will not be able to be replaced with a new generation for millenia.Well, for one, I'd say that the percentage of Noldor that they can field as soldiers is much higher than that of a human population. They have no elderly who cannot serve, for one thing. Additionally women are not universally excluded. Lastly, the amount of people dedicated to provide food need not be nearly as high as among human people's.
Beyond that, I'd be ok with a 7:1 ratio.
Well Gondolin is probably one of the few places where they increase in number because they are technically not in war, so they marry and sire children...The numbers will grow pretty high over the years; Turgon fields 10,000 at the Nirnaeth and I’m not certain if he had the largest host in the Union.