Session 2.10 for S2E06

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
I have been trying to keep up and doing note taking using the outline you did ... very good outline. This one is me mostly "thinking out loud."

With everything else being covered it would be great to push the Indis thing back. I'm trying to get into the swing of things here so I have a dumb question. Do the execs, maybe at the end of the pod cast, give a hard line on what topics have to be covered in the next episode? They might have and I just missed it. Again, sorry if it's one of those "obvious" questions haha.
yes Shawn, the topics in this thread went a lot further than what the execs need for the session today so I will not include much of it in their summary.
 

Shawn Mitchell

Active Member
yes Shawn, the topics in this thread went a lot further than what the execs need for the session today so I will not include much of it in their summary.
Thanks for the reply Phillip. Yes, I'm trying to get used to how you guys give/get feedback so I can maybe, eventually, help contribute as opposed to always just asking questions haha. I'm personally thankful for everyone working on this b/c it's a world I love so much.
 

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
When the project first started there were some fantastic posts on the forums and then it became clear during the sessions that the execs had not had time to read any of the ideas, so I sort-of volunteered to give them a summary of the relevant posts for each session. I will usually give them a bit of any reactions to the last session, but once that has passed you have to get used to letting things go and accepting that the execs have spoken and then you alter your perceptions and move on with brand new suggestions. Many times the threads can get bogged down on just a small number of issues so it is good to branch out and start a new conversation to try to cover all the issues that were requested. sometimes the best suggestions come from left field and the execs run with that. I also monitor the other topics although most of the contributions there go towards the thematic sessions at the end of the season. Keep contributing.
 

Shawn Mitchell

Active Member
When the project first started there were some fantastic posts on the forums and then it became clear during the sessions that the execs had not had time to read any of the ideas, so I sort-of volunteered to give them a summary of the relevant posts for each session. I will usually give them a bit of any reactions to the last session, but once that has passed you have to get used to letting things go and accepting that the execs have spoken and then you alter your perceptions and move on with brand new suggestions. Many times the threads can get bogged down on just a small number of issues so it is good to branch out and start a new conversation to try to cover all the issues that were requested. sometimes the best suggestions come from left field and the execs run with that. I also monitor the other topics although most of the contributions there go towards the thematic sessions at the end of the season. Keep contributing.
Good info ... helps me understand how things flow. It's great that you consolidate things for them. I'll definitely keep contributing ... thanks again.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
We are going to have to deal with Indis. The hosts want her to be a character (and a friend of Míriel's) starting in Episode 5. We are going to have our work cut out for us to get that idea across without this turning into a sordid love triangle.

There were strong suggestions of Míriel giving her 'permission' by asking Indis to look after Finwë for her, but again, we have to handle it really carefully. A lot to talk about during next Saturday's Script Discussion!
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Yes indeed. And we can use Indis to show further that the separation of Vanyar and Noldor is not an antagonism. They just want different things. They still love each other.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Well we will have to create two separate and very different situations. One with a first phase in which Indis is Míriel's friend and they hang out while Finwë is doing other stuff...and then a second phase in which Míriel fades and becomes a patient who is treated by Finwë and Indis in different ways. Then a second situation with Míriel gone. The survivors are like two castaways who have gone through a terrible experience together and they only have the other one who understands something of what that was like.
 

Marielle

Well-Known Member
I think the easiest way to do this, taking advantage of the visual medium, is to never have Indis and Finwe in the same place until after Miriel goes to Lorien. If we need to explain it away, Indis could be the one looking in on Miriel and little Feanor when Finwe has to go do kingly stuff. But I don't think we need to explain it. Indis comes to visit Miriel, before, during, and after her pregnancy, and they chat. Maybe the last conversation is Miriel confessing that she wants to go to Lorien, and says "you'll look after my boys, won't you?". Indis would of course, agree. She should be just as stunned as Finwe when Miriel says she won't re-embody.

But she keeps her promise to Miriel, and looks in on Finwe and Feanor, making sure they eat and teaching Feanor poetry, until one day she looks up at Finwe and blushes, maybe not even noticing that he's blushing back.

I don't think we want to go with Miriel saying "marry my hubby, because I'm not coming back." But maybe she'll say something like I suggested above, and Indis' can respond "of course, they're like family to me", and Miriel can mutter "I hope they will be" -- a suggestion to the audience that Indis might not notice or understand.
 

Marielle

Well-Known Member
... the above might have be more helpful before the script-writing session, wouldn't it have been? I had Thursday/Friday off last week, and I kept forgetting which day it was. Last night I was actually watching Corey's LotRO youtube videos to "catch up for the marathon"... that had begun a few hours before I starting watching the earlier sessions. :(
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
The script-"writing" session for this episode will be taking place this coming Saturday night, if that is what you're talking about. At least, I assume that you're not talking about the hosts' podcast which I thought I heard your name during.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
We will have to retroactively put Indis into the Outline for Episode 5, since that is where we have the Vanyar make the decision to leave Tirion. But that's no bother. Dealing with the death of Míriel, but including the role of her 'friend' Indis is going to be a bit trickier. We'll deal with that next week (Sat. Oct 8th 7:30 PM Eastern Time) in the Episode 6 Script Discussion, but by that time the Hosts will already be talking about Episode 7 (if Corey Olsen can dodge his inlaws).
 

Marielle

Well-Known Member
The script-"writing" session for this episode will be taking place this coming Saturday night, if that is what you're talking about. At least, I assume that you're not talking about the hosts' podcast which I thought I heard your name during.
... See what I mean about confusing the days? I could have sworn the Script Session was this past Saturday.

And yeah, I was live with the execs on Friday. I think the Miriel/Indis thing might be my fault...
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
The confusion comes partly, I believe, from the fact that the script discussions typically come day after the main broadcast. It is, however, two weeks behind. We still hope to work on episode 6 this weekend, I just hope the podcast and notes come out before then so we get a chance to review it.
 

Shawn Mitchell

Active Member
Hey Nicholas,

I was able to phone in and listen Friday and took notes for my own use. Of course the official notes will be better but this is what I have. Maybe it can help.

- Cirdan:

- No love interest

- self sacrifice

- romantic longing not a top theme with Tolkien

- him and his people are the forsaken ones … he feels this deeply BUT accepts his “calling”


- Melian is in line with Ulmo … the elves belong in Middle Earth

- Should be “questions” about Melian

- Celeborn, Mablung, Beleg, Daeron looking for Elwe

- Melian understands her calling when she meets Elwe – protect him and the kingdom

- Her ultimate lasting contribution was Luthien

- Thingol’s re-emergence parallels Gandalf’s return


- What is Tol Eressea thematically?

- How to handle it

- Elven home?

- complicates the “where do elves belong?” question

- represents the elves love of the sea

- how does the frame convey the importance of this island?


- We need characters for the Vanyar to tell their story of moving out

- Relatonship between Noldor and Vanyar

- NOT a schism or breakup

- We can use Indis Or Ingwe and Finwe friendship?

- Do it so it’s not sterile or cold

- By using Ingwe and Finwe it can become political … must be careful

- Alternative: Use Miriel and Indis? Do the friendship AND avoid it being creepy.


- Finwe and Indis must marry in the next episode b/c we need their children!

- A non “sexual” (as to avoid creepiness) scenario involving the friendship of Miriel and Indis … later the relationship of Finwe and Indis.

- Complicated but probably possible is handled in a very careful way … would be very easy to get creepy.

- Perhaps it’s Miriel’s “will” that Finwe marry Indis??

- Maybe Feanor begins to resist his own mother’s will then this resentment flows to his step-brothers?

* Miriel’s fading

- Not postpartum

- She WILLINGLY (a clear choice) put to much into Feanor and can’t go on.

- Feanor is old enough to remember her

- Feanor knows Indis, his mothers friend, and feels betrayed?

- Feanor continues to visit Miriel after Finwe stops

- Other elves are talking about this … the Valar as well

- She can be portrayed as very prideful … a foreshadowing of the fall of the Noldor

- She is over zealous, during pregnancy, about his greatness

- Feanor is who he is b/c of her?? She’s not the bad guy but her actions should be portrayed as a type of fall.

- She has foresight of his greatness WHILE pregnant … DURING the birth she sees his fall

- This she shares with Indis BUT NOT with Finwe

- She names him b/c of the foresight she has while pregnant


- Indis is on Feanor’s side but it is for the sake of Finwe … a certain type of sympathy for Feanor b/c Miriel told her what she saw during the birth


** Next Episode Questions:

- Introduce all the sons and their kids



- How do we depict Feanor?

- Develop his character

- Develop his relationships


- Finwe/Miriel/Indis

- The story fleshed out


- Finwe/Feanor – show the relationship


- Bad Guys?? Bring in some of the bad guys maybe?
 

Shawn Mitchell

Active Member
Ok, here is just some type of an outline I put down to start fleshing things out.

Thingol and Melian
-- Melian is in line with Ulmo’s belief that the elves belong in Middle Earth
- Melian finally understands her purpose – protecting the kingdom/Thingol
- Her lasting contribution is Luthien
- Thingol’s re-emergence parallels Gandalf’s return
** Characters such as Celeborn, Mablung, Beleg and Daeron should be shown looking for Elwe

Tol Erresea
- What is Tol Erresea Thematically?
- What is elven home? Where do elves belong? This island complicates those issues.
- Tol Erressea also represents their love of the sea.

Finwe/Miriel/Indis
- Miriel has premonitions of Feanor’s GREATNESS while pregnant
- She shares these with Indis
- During the birth she actually sees the “bad stuff” coming
- Finwe is kept in the dark about this?
- She willingly (it was a free will choice) gives Feanor to much of herself for she is obsessive with him being the greatest.
- She is prideful and pours too much into him.
- her pride can foreshadow the coming fall of the Norldor?
- She isn’t a bad mother but her decision should show she isn’t exactly the greatest either.
- her actions should be seen as a type of “fall”
- Irmo/Lorien can explain to Finwe what is happening … this will help explain things to the audience.
- Feanor is old enough to remember his mother and grow fond of her?? He continues to visit her after Finwe stops
- - Other elves should be talking about Miriel’s condition – even the Vanyar.
- Feanor knows Indis as his mother’s friend and feels betrayed by her later relationship with his father.
- REALLY down play sexual attraction from the opening … VERY easy to fall into “creepy” with this angle
- Maybe Miriel even wants Finwe to marry Indis once she knows she can’t go on.

Depiction of Feanor:
- What route do we take with this?
- "Jerk" route: plays well for the rebellion and especially the rift between him and his siblings ... not much of a "shock" when he goes bad
- "Means well but is a victim of his own firey will": this plays well for getting the audience behind him and makes the rebellion more tragic. However, it will be tough to show this and his prideful rift from his brothers and then later the rebellion.

Relationship of Feanor and Finwe:
- Does Finwe just fawn all over his son, a la Denethor / Boromir??
- Maybe he is very loving but sees his sons short comings?
- He doesn't know, unless that decision is changed, about Miriel's "vision" (the fall) during the birth ... so he could be a good competent father that simply doesn't know that his son is really headed down the wrong path.
Relationship between the Sons:
- Do we show them openly hostile from day one or do we go for the tragedy factor and build a tight bond in the beginning? Seems like Tolkien had them, or at least Feanor, at odds from day one.
- Are we showing the family members pick sides, verbally fight, etc...? Surely lines were drawn.

Teleri Arrive!!
- The Teleri are coming!! The Teleri are coming!! You get the picture ... this, according to the execs (Elf Lord Olsen and Lambert), should be a big deal to the Noldor.
- Show the building of Alqualonde etc...

Vanyar leave Tirion:
- We should show this in a manner where it is NOT a falling out or dispute ... just a "growing apart"

Ok, I know there's plenty more but this is just my rough outline to start the work.
 

Shawn Mitchell

Active Member
Some of the obvious points of the text and what is coming up:

* Writing/letters are developed
- Rumil of Tirion
- Should there be character development for him? Perhaps work him into one of the larger story lines?


* The birth of Luthien
- This wasn’t mentioned, unless I just missed it, on the last episode but the birth Luthien happens between Fingolfin and Finarfin
- Should we just ignore the timeline and push this back since there is so much going on already? If not then this occasion HAS to be given some time. The birth of Luthien is at LEAST as important, for future episodes, as the births of Finwe’s sons.


* Feanor checklist:
- Tall / Fair of face / raven dark hair
- Very strong willed
- “… most subtle in mind and the most skilled in hand.” … of all elves before, during and afterwards
- bettered the work of Rumil … Tengwar
- made the palantiri and the Silmarils (no one will know until the end what they were/are made of)
- possibly/likely made the Feanorian lamps
- married Nerdanel
- studied, for a time, under Mahtan (father-in-law)
- he had seven sons
- he seems, from the start, to have little love for Indis or his half brothers
- hated Melkor (he later named him Morgoth) more than any other elf


* Finwe
- The texts suggests that while he loved Indis, and their children, his primary love was given to Feanor – “… and of all whom he loved Feanor had ever the chief share of his thought.”


* Birth of Fingolfin and Finarfin
- Obviously some screen time has to be given to these two important events
- Show them growing up and the development of their characters?
* *On a side note: are we sticking with the Silmarillion proper or are we going to include Findis?


* Fingolfin
- First born of Finwe and Indis, unless we add Findis
- Ruled the Norldor while Feanor was banished and his father went with him
- Was held at sword point by Feanor
** While Feanor is the person usually associated with Pride the text points out that Feanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin, “… grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions.” Fingolfin and Finarfin, according to the text, can hardly be presented as purely “good” guys.


* Finarfin
- Second son of Finwe and Indis
- Eventually became the King of the Noldor who stayed behind but has no significant event in this upcoming episode … other than to add to the drama concerning the strife within the house of Finwe.


*Release of Melkor
- The release of Melkor may have to come early in the episode b/c he is the really the hinge that all “Noldor discontent” is hung on. While the Noldor, and the princes more than any others, grew prideful the text makes it clear that the lies of Melkor pushed things over the edge.
- We can show some of the Valar, Tulkas in particular, showing great distrust towards Melkor
- The Vanyar are suspicious, the Teleri he doesn’t bother with, and the Noldor are drawn to him b/c of his knowledge.
- Melkor reveals to the Noldor the coming of men (though he knew little to no details). Do we make this a big deal or do we just leave this out altogether. Seems like it would be odd to just casually drop it among the other lies he’s spreading. To the audience this would be a big deal.


* Weapons are first discussed and made among the Noldor.


* There was unrest among the Noldor, and Feanor OPENLY spoke against the Valar, but Manwe held his peace up to the point that Feanor threatened his brother.
- It would be interesting to show the Valar first realizing that the children are not happy and are becoming rebellious.
- Do some of the other Valar want to discipline the elves but Manwe stops them? Or, are they all on the same page and stay silent on the issue?
 
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