Session 2.10 for S2E06

* The birth of Luthien
- This wasn’t mentioned, unless I just missed it, on the last episode but the birth Luthien happens between Fingolfin and Finarfin
- Should we just ignore the timeline and push this back since there is so much going on already? If not then this occasion HAS to be given some time. The birth of Luthien is at LEAST as important, for future episodes, as the births of Finwe’s sons.
I believe we have decided that we should not show this now. We'll just accept later on that she has been born at some point.
 
I didn't listen to the end of the last session, so I'm not sure, but I thought the trial of Melkor and his release was going to have to wait until the next episode or the end of episode 7 at the earliest, perhaps with the trial in this episode and the release in the next one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I believe we have decided that we should not show this now. We'll just accept later on that she has been born at some point.

Ok ... with everything else going on it's probably a good idea to push it back. I would hate for the significance of it to be lost on the audience.
 
I didn't listen to the end of the last session, so I'm not sure, but I thought the trial of Melkor and his release was going to have to wait until the next episode or the end of episode 7 at the earliest, perhaps with the trial in this episode and the release in the next one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I was listening in but I honestly don't remember anything about Melkor ... I probably missed it. I was trying to jot down notes while it was going on. I only remember Corey mentioning that we may want to bring some of the bad guy stories into this next session ... but it didn't sound definite.

As they pointed out there are a lot of BIG stories coming up ... I'm not sure how it can all be crammed in there AND still convey the importance.
 
Some of the obvious points of the text and what is coming up:
* The birth of Luthien
- This wasn’t mentioned, unless I just missed it, on the last episode but the birth Luthien happens between Fingolfin and Finarfin
- Should we just ignore the timeline and push this back since there is so much going on already? If not then this occasion HAS to be given some time. The birth of Luthien is at LEAST as important, for future episodes, as the births of Finwe’s sons.
The latest podcast session mentioned Luthien's birth, but only in the context of her really being Melian's lasting legacy. I don't recall any suggestion that she be born already.
 
Luthien's birth is at about the same time as Fëanor's birth. But since her story isn't picked up until much later, we'd better just ignore it.

Regarding the bad guys - Maybe Thuringwethil could spy on Melkor's trial? Or perhaps that's too risky for her.
 
That's an intriguing idea... it certainly would be risky for her if the Valar know she's on his side... but how much do they know about his goons left in Middle Earth? Trying to remember... did we have Mairon revealed as a baddie, and the true fate of the Balrogs, to the Valar?

Also, do we want the bad guys to know Melkor is free, if their major plot this season is "who's in charge now"? It looses all immediacy for the audience if they know it's only temporary. I think we might want to have his return surprise them... either right before he goes to Ungoliant or even them being shocked by his cries in the Thieves' Quarrel.
 
Luthien's birth is at about the same time as Fëanor's birth. But since her story isn't picked up until much later, we'd better just ignore it.

Regarding the bad guys - Maybe Thuringwethil could spy on Melkor's trial? Or perhaps that's too risky for her.

Haakon, I like that idea ... or at least one of the bad guys getting news of the trial. Is it to "blasphemous" to maybe show that his "minions" are aware of his release and are at Angband preparing? He doesn't involve any of them in attack on Valinor but it doesn't mean they couldn't be preparing. Since my first reading of the Sil I always found it odd that none of his minions had come back for him OR at least began preparing when he was released. Just thoughts.
 
The latest podcast session mentioned Luthien's birth, but only in the context of her really being Melian's lasting legacy. I don't recall any suggestion that she be born already.

Marielle, I did jot some notes down from the episode about Luthien being her lasting legacy so yeah it was mentioned. But not her birth. I only brought it up here b/c I was making an outline and her birth DOES fall into this time period. But we haven't been super strict in following that and I personally like the idea of pushing it back.
 
I'm not sure how effective this might be, but to lessen some of the creepiness of the Finwë-Indis relationship (in light of her friendship with Míriel), maybe we have some of the other elves (or a particular elf?) be in favour of and even possibly counsel Finwë (or both Finwë and Indis) to pursue this course of action? I think their love should be real, of course, but the less aware of it they are initially, the better?
 
I'm not sure how effective this might be, but to lessen some of the creepiness of the Finwë-Indis relationship (in light of her friendship with Míriel), maybe we have some of the other elves (or a particular elf?) be in favour of and even possibly counsel Finwë (or both Finwë and Indis) to pursue this course of action? I think their love should be real, of course, but the less aware of it they are initially, the better?
There could be initial doubt (or outrage?) which later gives way to a consensus in favour of their marriage.
 
I'm not sure how effective this might be, but to lessen some of the creepiness of the Finwë-Indis relationship (in light of her friendship with Míriel), maybe we have some of the other elves (or a particular elf?) be in favour of and even possibly counsel Finwë (or both Finwë and Indis) to pursue this course of action? I think their love should be real, of course, but the less aware of it they are initially, the better?

Richol, I like this as a possible angle. Do you mean, or could it mean perhaps, that it's not a good idea for the king to be un-married? Maybe protocol and ceremony suggests that he should be married and since it's obvious there are feelings they marry? Or is it that it is obvious that they have feelings and b/c of that it is strongly suggested they go ahead and marry b/c "the elves are talking" ?? Just trying to flesh it out.
 
Richol, I like this as a possible angle. Do you mean, or could it mean perhaps, that it's not a good idea for the king to be un-married? Maybe protocol and ceremony suggests that he should be married and since it's obvious there are feelings they marry? Or is it that it is obvious that they have feelings and b/c of that it is strongly suggested they go ahead and marry b/c "the elves are talking" ?? Just trying to flesh it out.
I vote more for the first than the second. I don't see Tolkien's elves being particularly nosy gossips; it's not in keeping with the aura of Valinor, in particular.

The idea of the king supposing to be married is interesting, but we're going to have a fair number of examples when the Noldor return of kings who aren't. Finrod being perhaps the prime example.

I still want this idea to be primarily Finwe's. He's got so little initiative in the later half of the season, I want to give him something. Perhaps most of the Eldar could be confused/wary of the remarriage, but reassured by their fruitfulness and the excellence of Indis' offspring?
 
I still want this idea to be primarily Finwe's. He's got so little initiative in the later half of the season, I want to give him something. Perhaps most of the Eldar could be confused/wary of the remarriage, but reassured by their fruitfulness and the excellence of Indis' offspring?
I agree. Also, Indis is a really nice person. People can't dislike her or what she does for a very long time.
 
Richol, I like this as a possible angle. Do you mean, or could it mean perhaps, that it's not a good idea for the king to be un-married? Maybe protocol and ceremony suggests that he should be married and since it's obvious there are feelings they marry? Or is it that it is obvious that they have feelings and b/c of that it is strongly suggested they go ahead and marry b/c "the elves are talking" ?? Just trying to flesh it out.

I'm trying to flesh some of it out myself, to be honest. We'd have to handle the whole scenario carefully. I'm thinking remarriage would definitely cause some controversy but showing reasonable support for it would help. It's more along the lines of Finwë's now being without a partner, except he has a companion in Indis and some view this as a good thing. Not necessarily because he's king, but that would be interesting.
 
Building of Menegroth and introduction of dwarves are waiting for Season 3, as is the intro of the Green Elves to Beleriand. We can show Lúthien at that time if we don't want her birth part of 'Thingol and Melian form the realm of Doriath' in this episode. Perhaps we could end their story with an image of Melian pregnant? We are planning to just leave Middle Earth to its own devices, as there is no communication across the ocean during this time, and the lives of the Sindar are a mystery to the elves of Valinor. Events that chronologically happen 'during' Season 2 (but in Middle Earth) will be told in Season 3.

Trial of Melkor is in Episode 8, *not* Episode 7. We do not have time for that here.

This episode is to focus on the wedding of Indis and Finwë as well as the breach in the relationship between Fëanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fëanor and Nerdanel can also get married in this episode.

We will be saving the birth of future kids (the children of Fëanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin) for later episodes. The introduction of, say, adult Maedhros and Fingon will definitely be waiting for a later episode (probably 9).
 
I vote more for the first than the second. I don't see Tolkien's elves being particularly nosy gossips; it's not in keeping with the aura of Valinor, in particular.

The idea of the king supposing to be married is interesting, but we're going to have a fair number of examples when the Noldor return of kings who aren't. Finrod being perhaps the prime example.

I still want this idea to be primarily Finwe's. He's got so little initiative in the later half of the season, I want to give him something. Perhaps most of the Eldar could be confused/wary of the remarriage, but reassured by their fruitfulness and the excellence of Indis' offspring?

It seems like having Finwe as the driving force is the most favored approach. It works well in a lot of ways.
 
Building of Menegroth and introduction of dwarves are waiting for Season 3, as is the intro of the Green Elves to Beleriand. We can show Lúthien at that time if we don't want her birth part of 'Thingol and Melian form the realm of Doriath' in this episode. Perhaps we could end their story with an image of Melian pregnant? We are planning to just leave Middle Earth to its own devices, as there is no communication across the ocean during this time, and the lives of the Sindar are a mystery to the elves of Valinor. Events that chronologically happen 'during' Season 2 (but in Middle Earth) will be told in Season 3.

Trial of Melkor is in Episode 8, *not* Episode 7. We do not have time for that here.

This episode is to focus on the wedding of Indis and Finwë as well as the breach in the relationship between Fëanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fëanor and Nerdanel can also get married in this episode.

We will be saving the birth of future kids (the children of Fëanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin) for later episodes. The introduction of, say, adult Maedhros and Fingon will definitely be waiting for a later episode (probably 9).

Thanks MithLuin ... that'll keep the bumpers rails up for me when I work on some of this step by step. What you've mentioned here has been discussed and detailed pretty good so far.
 
I'm trying to flesh some of it out myself, to be honest. We'd have to handle the whole scenario carefully. I'm thinking remarriage would definitely cause some controversy but showing reasonable support for it would help. It's more along the lines of Finwë's now being without a partner, except he has a companion in Indis and some view this as a good thing. Not necessarily because he's king, but that would be interesting.

Yeah the remarriage is definitely not the norm ... but if it's handled correctly the characters can come out the other end with the audience still caring. I think a lot of the elves would see him having companionship as a good thing. Plus, you can always cut the king some slack when it comes to the rules haha.
 
Dwarves, Laiquendi, Orcs and Menegroth are all for season 3. Doriath isn't established before Melian and Thingol sense that they have to think about a defence (after the appearance of the orcs).
 
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