Session 2.15 for S2E11

I was assuming Ungolie lived in Avathar, as well. From earlier debates on the forum, I've learned that we should keep things like the Doors of Night as obscure and far away from the story as possible. I think we should just have someone say Melkor is 'gone' or something as simple as that.
 
If we just have the Valar say "Melkor is gone", then we run into the dilemma of making them look really really incompetent, and the Valar don't really need our help in that area. ;)

Maybe we keep it vague:
Eonwe: Where hast Melkor gone?
Tulkas: He's gone. He's eluded my grasp.
Eonwe: Gone, where?
Orome: It appears that he has passed the Walls of Night and departed Arda.
Eonwe: Ahh, perhaps that is for the best.
 
Okay, so we've got Aredhel chronically wandering off as a running gag - works for me.

Attempt at a conversation, take 2:

*Galadriel enters a room containing Aredhel and a blond-haired toddler. Aredhel and the toddler are laughing together about something.*

Galadriel: What are you two up to? Secret plans?
Idril: Plans! *giggles*
Aredhel: Oh, Galadriel, good to see you! Idril and I were just talking about going to visit her uncle Fingon later, weren't we?
Idril: *announces proudly* I'm going to marry him!
Galadriel: *shakes her head* You can't marry your uncle, silly.
Idril: Why not?
Aredhel: *bends down to her level* Because you're related. We don't marry people we're related to. That's not how it works.
Idril: So I can't marry anyone I know?
Galadriel: *to Idril* You have some time to think about it, don't worry. *to Aredhel* So you are headed to Fingon's house soon? My brothers are there now.
Aredhel: Oh, do you want to take Idril then? I told her parents I would bring her, but last time... *laughs* we arrived so late everyone worried about her.
Idril: *puzzling things out* *to Galadriel* So, are we related?
Galadriel: Yes! Your dad and I are cousins.
Idril: What's a cousin?
Aredhel: When brothers and sisters have children, those children are cousins. You don't have any cousins yet....
Idril: Because I don't have any brothers or sisters?
Aredhel: And because Fingon and I aren't married and don't have any children.
Idril: *thinks about it* Who are your cousins?
Galadriel: I have a lot of cousins! Your aunt Aredhel and uncle Fingon, and your dad are all my cousins. But I also have cousins in Alqualondë, because my mother is from there, and her brothers have children.
Idril: Will I get to visit Alqualondë some day?
Galadriel: Of course....
Aredhel: *interrupting* And we have cousins in Formenos.
Galadriel: Half-cousins.
Aredhel: They're still cousins.
Galadriel: They never let us forget that it's half-cousins.
Idril: *confused*



So that is way too rambling, and barely even serves as a transition between other scenes, and never manages to name Turgon as Idril's father...but, there you go! I like tiny!Idril better than tiny!Galadriel, I think.

So who do we have in mind for Aredhel and Galadriel at this point?
 
It's more like "what specific actors are we thinking about to be speaking these parts, who are we writing this dialogue for?"
 
I don't think we need to be considering actors before dialogue. Sometimes alterations are made to a part after a certain actor is cast, or even on the spot during shooting, but I think we can work out our general story choices without having to nail down casting.
 
The casting session hasn't been announced yet, but we will likely be voting on that after the discussion of Episode 13, so some time early in the new year.
 
I don't like the idea that Nerdanel argues against Feanor in the debate after what to do about Morgoth and the Silmarils. If we stick to the story, the result of the debate is that Feanor wins over the whole crowd of Noldor and his 7 sons swear the evil Oath. If we had Nerdanel arguing in opposition at this scene, we would need to either make her case weak (and thus her presence weak), or really raise Feanor's persuasive ability. How do we get all 7 sons to betray their mother publicly?

There are other ways to deal with Nerdanel. How about:
1. Have Morgoth kill her when he steals the Silmarils
2. Have her go along with Feanor's plans until the Kinslaying.
3. Have her get killed during the Kinslaying.
4. Have her leave Feanor before, or during Feanor's banishment (perhaps after his confrontation with Morgoth?)

Side question: are these threads the best place to comment on podcast episodes after listening to them?
 
I agree that there are some issues with when and how to have Nerdanel split with Fëanor. I am *not* okay with having her get killed rather than deal with their split. She can confront him privately after the speech in Tirion, but if so, it needs to be a follow-up to a conversation they've already had. At that point, Fëanor is shocked that she has not changed her mind and decided to join him.
 
I agree that there are some issues with when and how to have Nerdanel split with Fëanor. I am *not* okay with having her get killed rather than deal with their split. She can confront him privately after the speech in Tirion, but if so, it needs to be a follow-up to a conversation they've already had. At that point, Fëanor is shocked that she has not changed her mind and decided to join him.

You have followed the discussion more closely than I have, of course. This sounds pretty good.

In the book, Fëanor's speech is so good that he convinces the entire Noldor nation to follow him, including his brothers and sons. If Nerdanel is to be the exception, we need to develop her doubts on screen; if she gets spooked when Fëanor slams the door in Morgoth's face, it would be a good opportunity to see how she is the only character close to Fëanor who realizes that he can't be trusted with leadership.

Maybe she could attempt to rebut Fëanor's argument at Tirion, but the crowd is already too enthralled to pay any attention to her. Does she show up after her sons take the Oath? Maybe she arrives the very moment they take the Oath.

Can she get killed after the split? (C'mon, this is the Silmarillion. We gotta kill some characters!)

Edit: maybe she could be useful for organizing the faction of Noldor who turn back.
 
Only 90% of the Noldor will be leaving with Fëanor. 10% are going to stay, including the wives of Finwë's sons. The voice for staying is Finarfin, but he is overruled because 'let's just think this over and talk about it reasonably' does not make for an exciting speech. He goes anyway, but most likely to try to continue to be the voice of reason. And also because he didn't love his father any less than Fingolfin and Fëanor did. And then Finarfin and most of his host will turn back after the Doom of Mandos.

As Tolkien wrote it, the only female voice during that debate is Galadriel. But for various reasons, we probably don't want her to be publicly speaking up here, so it was suggested we give that role to Irimë (the sister of Fingolfin who is going to die in the kinslaying). She could be hell-bent on avenging her father's death, and give that side of it. Nerdanel could also take that role, as she's been opposing Fëanor in private fairly consistently since their marriage, and this would be a bridge too far for her. That scene will be next season, so we'll have to make some choices about which characters to include with particular viewpoints.

I think that the most moving death for Nerdanel would be if, after the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, the returning armies give her news of the deaths of all 7 of her sons in Kinslayings. And then she dies of grief. But Tolkien never mentions her after the speeches in Tirion, really. The version of the story where she tries to talk Fëanor into leaving at least *one* of their sons with her shows up in 'the Shibboleth of Fëanor' in HoME XII: The Peoples of Middle Earth. There, he tries to talk her into joining them, and she refuses, so their final split is after the Oath...but it could be implied that she wasn't exactly living with him any more prior to this.
 
i somehow like the idea that nerdanel and feanor split when he goes to build formenos and he takes his sons with him and that this alienated the couple.. as feanor makes his young sons his most fanatical followers.
 
We are going to have Nerdanel at Formenos with Fëanor, but not necessarily in agreement with him. This allows their arguments and disagreements to play out onscreen for the audience.
 
I must have overlooked that. But of course it makes sense for a Formenos-centered episode. By the way: if Irime dies, does she have children? I remember people speculating that Gilfanon, Aranwe or Glorfindel might be descendants of the sisters Irime and Findis...
 
The removal to Formenos was discussed in the most recent Session, which is now available on iTunes. The discussion about Nerdanel is at 1:05.

We have not yet discussed whether or not Findis and Irimë are married or have children. Certainly, it would be possible to introduce those characters in later seasons and reveal the kinship with Fingolfin (so long as it's clear they're not his heir).
 
so far i could only follow up to
The Season 2 Frame which is available at signum Homepage... i dodn't find session
Session 2-14 and
Session 2-1 yet.
 
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