Session 2.15 for S2E11

dietlbomb said:
If we had Nerdanel arguing in opposition at this scene, we would need to either make her case weak (and thus her presence weak), or really raise Feanor's persuasive ability. How do we get all 7 sons to betray their mother publicly?
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I respectfully disagree. Firstly, Feanor should be the better orator, as he has charisma coming out the wazoo, and his position will be helped by the circumstances surrounding it. Nerdanel doesn't have to be unimpressive to fail to convince a majority when 1) their world has just been terrifyingly and irrevocably changed 2) their king has been murdered and 3) the Valar either couldn't or didn't stop it. Then the king's heir, and the Noldor's golden boy, whom everyone (and
especially his sons) hero-worships, says everything they're thinking? And says he knows what to do? That's hard to argue against, no matter how good a speaker you are.

His sons... in the book, it says they all leapt up "at once" to take the oath -- I think it should be an open question, with visible hesitation, on the part of at least one of them (Maedros is an obvious candidate). But their admiration of their father, anger at the murder of their grandfather and the theft of the silmarils, and longing for Middle Earth should overrule their hesitations and mother's pleas.

Also, it's been suggested before that Nerdanel and Feanor argue before in the series about what to do, with each winning/loosing some of the debates, and the other always going along with the winner in the end. So the seven sons might not see siding with their father as "betraying" their mother, but merely expressing their positions in the arguement, and be as surprised (and possibly hurt) as their father when she refuses to go along in the end.
 
Yes, arguing with each other has been a staple of the relationship between Nerdanel and Fëanor, and in the beginning, she's much more successful at talking him round to her viewpoint. Later on, she is never able to convince him to change his course of action. But that means that she's been giving into his arguments (to a point), and that she might be expected to 'cave' here as well. In the conversation Tolkien wrote between her and Fëanor after the Oath, she asks to have one of the sons left with her, and he asks her to keep all 7 sons by coming with him. It is clearly what he expects and wants her to do.

That is, after all, what Finarfin does in the story - argues against going, but goes anyway.
 
Marielle said:
Feanor is not one for softness, inasmuch as there's not much soft about his personality, but luxury doesn't have to be soft. Feanor might very well have "majestic" sort of luxury: lots of marble or other cold, monochromatic stone, rich-colored fabrics without much in the way of patterns, metal cast into "strong" (ie not delicate) braziers, dishes, diadems, etc. We should definitely have some Utumno parallels, though I think that Formenos would be much less "done" than Utumno (Dr. O suggested that U should not be overdone, but "highly done" back in Season 1).
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Yes, luxury need not be soft and would seem to fit well with his growing pride. It is unlikely that Tirion upon Tuna (a planned city on an artificial hill) had enough room for the personal architectural expansions that Feanor might have had in mind.

A fortress as some have suggested is probably a step too far. They've only just invented swords and there are as yet no clear physical threats in the blessed realm. Building a castle makes little sense when your problems are pride and jealousy and not an invading army. Defensible, yes; fortified, not yet. Also, the prior suggestion of unfinished construction still visibly underway is a good one. Perhaps an extension of the privacy hedge into a proper wall or the addition of low towers that could later serve as ramparts.

I think the second-age city of Ost-in-Edhil would resemble Fromenos in some regards. Built by Celebrimbor his father Curufin certainly was accustomed to spending time in Formenos with his own father Feanor. Since the Eldar rarely marry or bear children in time of strife and since war was never wholly abated from time of the return of the Noldor to the Dagor Bragollach when Curufin retreated to Nargothrond, we might infer that Celebrimbor could have been born in Aman and if so, he would have spent some time in Formenos too.
 
We know that we want Turgon's daughter Idril to be born by Episode 12. We have not yet made any decisions about whether or not Celebrimbor is born in Middle Earth or Aman. Certainly, there is quite a bit of appeal to have a child Celebrimbor meet his grandfather Fëanor. And I agree that choosing a later time in Middle Earth runs into 'I don't think now's the best time!' difficulties. We will have to believe Aegnor's reluctance to marry Andreth, so we can't show other Noldor just getting married and having kids during the Watchful Peace. There might be a small window around the Feast of Reuniting (and before Dagor Aglareb), and we will need to make use of that for Galadriel and Celeborn. But...it does seem unlikely that a son of Fëanor, bound by the Oath, would not consider any part of the First Age a 'time of war.'
 
Yes so maybe Curufin marries during the time in Formenos? Next episode won't have room for a wedding. A not so merry wedding in episode 11 might be an idea. Because then things happen very fast, don't they? Celebrimbor could be a baby through the Darkening, the Kinslaying and Shipburning and everything, perhaps. (Or do I get the timing wrong?)
 
well i can only think of two periods during the jewel wars which could more or less be cinsidered times of peace: the siege of angband and the union of maedhros. the only person that is confirmed born during the first period is maeglin though.and i couldn't yet find a person born in the second period. so probably there are long times in which no elf children are around ...
 
Well Celembrimbor is born at some point and that isn't mentioned. We have to pick an appropriate time. It could be during one of the times you mention or it could be in Valinor, before the Darkening.
 
timeline at tolkien gateway suggests that gul-galad was born during the siege of angband too... and all half-elves after dior were born in times of war.interestingly all elf amies we seem to meet seem to have been born during the years of trees: idril, nimloth, luthien... theres one pretty young elf i can think of: nellas (would fit to a siege of angband generation elf).
 
I would shy away from showing the wedding of Curufin onscreen, simply because this season has a lot of weddings and ceremonies and parties already, and the wedding of Curufin isn't an important detail. [We already have: the wedding of Finwë and Míriel in Cuivienen in episode 3, the wedding of Finwë and Indis AND the wedding of Fëanor and Nerdanel in Episode 7, the wedding of Turgon and Elenwë as a backdrop to the invention of the silmarils in Episode 9, the naming ceremony of Amrod and Amras (spoiler: Ambarussa) in Episode 9, and the Feast in Episode 12.]

I am fine introducing a young!child Celebrimbor in the Formenos episode, though. For one thing, I think we'll have room for some character moments there, and for another, the timing fits. It can just be understood that the woman who is there with Curufin is his wife and Celebrimbor's mother.
 
If we've had the seven sons calling Feanor "Ada" and that meaning made clear, then all we need to have is a toddler boy hold out his arms to Curufin and say "Ada! Up!", and we've handled this.
 
In today's script discussion, Celebrimbor became a child of 10 or so who is Fëanor's assistant in his forge in Formenos. We'll need the dialogue to make clear that they are grandfather and grandson.
 
thats a great idea little celebrimbor helping grandfather feanor at his workshop and feanor showing his soft spot..
 
Marielle said:
That is adorable. And I vote we have Feanor be super-patient, almost indulgent, of his grandson. We're rapidly running out of sympathetic traits for Feanor, after all.
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Oh that sounds perfectly wonderful. I agree, we really need to show Fëanor's warmer sides.
 
Maybe too this can be a subtle character defining moment... Feanor could be watching Celebrimbor and spoiling him (as grandparents are allowed to do, it's a rule) and then something he says to Celebrimbor echoes something that Finwe said to Feanor. Feanor pauses for a moment as if reflecting on how Finwe might be spoiling and indulging Feanor's childishness... but then he shrugs his shoulders and the moment is past.
 
The scene we envisioned wasn't quite so sweet, but it is the moment in this episode when Fëanor looks as much like a decent person as he's going to, so if we're going to give any hope of him coming out okay, this scene is where we get it. I think it will depend on whatever nuance is put into the script writing.

...which brings up the topic, is anyone interested in writing actual scenes with dialogue and such? Because we'll need that eventually.....
 
Notions as I catch up (almost there!)

1) Nerdanel and Feanor. The place in the story where their final split would have the most impact, both on the audience and to each other, would be immediately before Feanor makes his Oath. In private, they have a huge battle and say things that can't be unsaid. This is the final straw that pushes Feanor over the edge all the way into crazytown - without this final impetus, there'd be no Oath, no Kinslaying.

2) Melkor and Feanor at Formenos. Let the record state that I looooove the "jailcrow of Mandos" line. However, consider this alternate scene. I don't know that it's better, but it amuses me.

Melkor arrives at the gates of Formenos, Feanor is summoned.

Feanor does not open the gate all the way, and stands in the way blocking entry.

Melkor launches into a lengthy speech that sounds polished/prepared. Feanor watches silently, looking fairly neutral at first, eventually becoming more disdainful.

As Feanor continues not to speak. Melkor falters for a moment, then resumes in a way that sounds less polished. Finally he sort of winds down in an non-satisfying way, ending in a vocal fry/uptalk/questioning tone.

Feanor stares for a moment, then closes the door in Melkor's face.
 
A lot of this will depend on how we decide what the gate will look like. If we assume Formenos is fortified, that actually increases the options as what the gate will look like and how it will function. And, because they're Noldor, the gate will be ornate and spectacular. But if the gate is a portcullus, drawbridge, large doors, etc. will help define how we depict the Feanor/Melkor scene. It will also help define Finwe's last stand (which I still think we should show, but....).
 
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