Session 3.02 - Season 3 Frame

Nicholas Palazzo said:
Either way, he does not go to save Estel because he is the king. He goes because he realizes that his jealousy and hatred were ill-founded.
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Agreed. It's not that the knowledge of Estel's identity moves Hamilcar to some feat of nobility he wouldn't otherwise have been inspired to, but that the sense of Estel's importance snaps him out of his irrational (teenage) jealousy. He moves beyond thinking about his own status and realizes there are bigger things going on. There might be a parallel with Estel here too--he starts the season motivated at least a bit by selfishness and impatience but then learns about playing a part in bigger events.

Lincoln Alpern said:
My second concern comes at the time when somebody (Dave?) points out that having the Fell Winter and all sorts of nastiness following it in the region contradicts what we're told at the end of The Hobbit that the land experienced many years of peace and prosperity following the death of the dragon and the Battle of Five Armies. While I'll take "The Fell Winter is only a few years afterward" as an excuse, especially if it corresponds with Sauron's return to Mordor, I find the hosts' assertion that "the Shire will be better off, so that's what Bilbo was talking about" too flippant.

For one thing, the Shire didn't seem to be in such bad shape before Bilbo's adventure, so how does that make sense? More importantly, not having peace and prosperity in the lands around the Lonely Mountain and the Misty Mountains would to me seem to violate Tolkien's sensibilities. Elsewhere in his Legendarium, the defeat of a great evil always heralds a period of supreme tranquility and plenty. Think of Gondor after Sauron's fall, the Shire after the Scouring, or even Belariand and Numenor following the War of Wrath. Why, then, should things get worse, rather than better, after the deaths of Smaug, the Great Goblin, and Bolg and the rout of the Misty Mountain goblins?

I can only think of one semi-plausible answer: Sauron's return is so incredibly bad, it actually negates the otherwise universal tendency of settling into peace and abundance after a great evil is defeated. I suppose this scenario could be made to work, but it would have to be done very carefully and thoughtfully. Otherwise, I think it would risk trivializing how big the victories at the Lonely Mountain against Smaug and Bolg really were.
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The Fell Winter, as we are playing it here, is important and memorable, but it's just one winter and might not be a long term interruption of the Shire's general prosperity lasting decades (especially since the hobbits are greatly aided by outside forces they don't fully understand and things are nowhere near as bad as they could have been). Pretty quickly the hobbits, or those with a little Took in them, might start to remember the excitement more than the hardship and begin to romanticize the events. So Bilbo's statement might still make sense to him even with the memory of the Winter. (Not sure how we show any of this, of course, unless we do a scene down the road of Bilbo and other hobbits reminiscing in the Green Dragon...)
 
Brian Dimmick said:
It's not that the knowledge of Estel's identity moves Hamilcar to some feat of nobility he wouldn't otherwise have been inspired to, but that the sense of Estel's importance snaps him out of his irrational (teenage) jealousy. He moves beyond thinking about his own status and realizes there are bigger things going on. There might be a parallel with Estel here too--he starts the season motivated at least a bit by selfishness and impatience but then learns about playing a part in bigger events.
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I appreciate the distinction, and I realize what we're going for with this. I see the point for Hamilcar's story arc of overcoming his jealous; but I'm concerned it won't come through that way on television. That's my worry.

On the subject of Estel's name, it occurred to me, would Hamilcar know enough to realize it means "hope?" And if not, would he ask about it? Either way, I could see him teasing Aragorn about it in their earlier scenes, "hope for what, exactly?" with the unspoken irony being that he is the "Hope of Men."

Brian Dimmick said:
The Fell Winter, as we are playing it here, is important and memorable, but it's just one winter and might not be a long term interruption of the Shire's general prosperity lasting decades (especially since the hobbits are greatly aided by outside forces they don't fully understand and things are nowhere near as bad as they could have been). Pretty quickly the hobbits, or those with a little Took in them, might start to remember the excitement more than the hardship and begin to romanticize the events. So Bilbo's statement might still make sense to him even with the memory of the Winter. (Not sure how we show any of this, of course, unless we do a scene down the road of Bilbo and other hobbits reminiscing in the Green Dragon...)
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Oh yeah, I wasn't objecting to having the Fell Winter here. An occasional blip of evil activity is okay.

The part which specifically made me uneasy was when the execs were talking about having orcs and trolls (the cunning, dangerous kind, not buffoons like the ones in The Hobbit) wandering the countryside at or after the time of the Fell Winter. At one point, someone, (Dave, I think) said, "Well, doesn't this contradict what it says at the end of The Hobbit about there being an era of peace and plenty after the death of the dragon?" and the decision was, "Well, after the Fell Winter, it is an era of peace and plenty in the Shire after the Fell Winter, and that's probably what Bilbo was writing about when he said that, so it's fine." And so therefore, they're free to have all sorts of evil creatures roaming around and causing trouble everywhere else outside the Shire's borders. The upside of this being that there's more opportunity for action and danger in the frame story between now and The Lord of the Rings proper.

Like I said, I think having the occasional blip like the Fell Winter in the decades following the events of The Hobbit is fine. But I'm afraid that if there are all manner of evil creatures terrorizing the countryside from Mirkwood to the Blue Mountains soon after the Battle of Five Armies, we can explain away Bilbo saying it was a time of peaceful content - even though he does travel the wider world in that time, doesn't he? - but to me it would seem to violate the Tolkienian principle of a great evil's defeat leading to great prosperity and general wellbeing in the lands around.
 
Lincoln Alpern said:
I appreciate the distinction, and I realize what we're going for with this. I see the point for Hamilcar's story arc of overcoming his jealous; but I'm concerned it won't come through that way on television. That's my worry.

On the subject of Estel's name, it occurred to me, would Hamilcar know enough to realize it means "hope?" And if not, would he ask about it? Either way, I could see him teasing Aragorn about it in their earlier scenes, "hope for what, exactly?" with the unspoken irony being that he is the "Hope of Men."


Oh yeah, I wasn't objecting to having the Fell Winter here. An occasional blip of evil activity is okay.

The part which specifically made me uneasy was when the execs were talking about having orcs and trolls (the cunning, dangerous kind, not buffoons like the ones in The Hobbit) wandering the countryside at or after the time of the Fell Winter. At one point, someone, (Dave, I think) said, "Well, doesn't this contradict what it says at the end of The Hobbit about there being an era of peace and plenty after the death of the dragon?" and the decision was, "Well, after the Fell Winter, it is an era of peace and plenty in the Shire after the Fell Winter, and that's probably what Bilbo was writing about when he said that, so it's fine." And so therefore, they're free to have all sorts of evil creatures roaming around and causing trouble everywhere else outside the Shire's borders. The upside of this being that there's more opportunity for action and danger in the frame story between now and The Lord of the Rings proper.

Like I said, I think having the occasional blip like the Fell Winter in the decades following the events of The Hobbit is fine. But I'm afraid that if there are all manner of evil creatures terrorizing the countryside from Mirkwood to the Blue Mountains soon after the Battle of Five Armies, we can explain away Bilbo saying it was a time of peaceful content - even though he does travel the wider world in that time, doesn't he? - but to me it would seem to violate the Tolkienian principle of a great evil's defeat leading to great prosperity and general wellbeing in the lands around.
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I can understand the worry about Hamilcar's motivation not reading well. I think one way to mitigate this is to illustrate him as an otherwise decent person who is driven to jealousy by his father's inexplicable level of deference and attention to Estel.

As to trolls and orcs, I agree with the sentiment. I could accept the idea of these wolves being egged on by a werewolf, but I'd just as soon avoid having the Shire in danger of invasion by orcs and trolls.
 
One more thing, which I forgot to mention earlier. In the episode, the hosts refer to the Dunedain's "G*psy camp." I respectfully ask that we refrain from using the word "g*psy" in future, because it's an ethnic slur which is tied to the historical persecution of Romani peoples.
 
Agreed - it tends not to be seen that way in the States, but most people who use it are rather unaware of the situation in Europe. The Dunedain as Travellers without a home, distrusted by the people whose lands they pass through does fit.
 
So a little off topic here and sorry if I missed talk of this previously, but as I was listening to the episodes I kept thinking the character of Trotter could be a cool addition to throw in. It seems like Trotter is being used as a nickname now, though I think having at least a character like a "Trotter" (old hobbit who Gandalf had talked into going on an adventure prior to Bilbo and has wooden shoes) would be interesting. At the very least we should trough in a wooden shoed hobbit in as an easter egg at some point, but I could also see him as an interesting character hanging out with the rangers and used in a minor to a larger than a minor role.
 
Neat idea! That's the kind of Easter Egg that won't be a problem if the audience doesn't recognize/understand it, but would be fun for those who do get it. And I like establishing Gandalf's role as an instigator of adventures and heroism. Bilbo and Frodo might be the most famous, but they were hardly the first, if the Took family tree is to be believed. [Not sure if Trotter should be from the Breeland, Buckland, or a Took, but we could do something with any of those.]

I imagine we'll have the opportunity to meet some hobbits, as we're going to the borders of the Shire and possibly Bree in the frame this season. So why not? Also it gives the opportunity to point out how unusual it is for a hobbit to wear shoes, if we want to make that point.
 
MithLuin said:
Neat idea! That's the kind of Easter Egg that won't be a problem if the audience doesn't recognize/understand it, but would be fun for those who do get it. And I like establishing Gandalf's role as an instigator of adventures and heroism. Bilbo and Frodo might be the most famous, but they were hardly the first, if the Took family tree is to be believed. [Not sure if Trotter should be from the Breeland, Buckland, or a Took, but we could do something with any of those.]

I imagine we'll have the opportunity to meet some hobbits, as we're going to the borders of the Shire and possibly Bree in the frame this season. So why not? Also it gives the opportunity to point out how unusual it is for a hobbit to wear shoes, if we want to make that point.
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Though none of the Tooks went as far as Bilbo or Frodo.
 
It just occurred to me today that it seems rather strange for Halbarad to be so much older than Aragorn. If he's got a son older than Aragorn, that makes him at least 21-22 years older? So then when Aragorn is 88 at the War of the Ring, Halbarad is 110? Even for a Dunadan, that's old to be out on the battlefield. Are Dunedain normally still spry and fighting at that age, by the late Third Age? In LotR he isn't marked out as an old guy.

I haven't read the whole thread so I apologize if this has come up already.
 
Faelivrin said:
It just occurred to me today that it's kind of bizarre for Halbarad to be so much older than Aragorn. If he's got a son older than Aragorn, that makes him at least 37-38 years older? So then when Aragorn is 90-something at the War of the Ring, Halbarad is 128? Even for a Dunadan, that's really quite old to be out on the battlefield. Do Dunedain normally even live that long these days?

I haven't read the whole thread so I apologize if this has come up already.
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Yeah, I pointed this out. I think someone said that it goes along with a long tradition of grizzled middle-aged sergeants.
 
Can someone remind me: are we going to have a session going back and fitting the frame to the episode? We haven't really talked about it much recently...
 
The goal was to hammer out the frame for the season, let the script outlines fit it in, and then perhaps when they review the script outlines, they can alter/tweak the frame at that time?
 
Since we are realizing that time for script outlining is getting tight, I propose hammering out some more of the details for the last episodes (11-12-13) here, so we don't have to devote as much time to the frame during script sessions.

So far, the main story in 11-12 are looking pretty tight to me in terms of time, so I think it's unlikely we'll have much time for frame. I'm not sure about 13 -- if we need and are allowed to make it a 2-hour finale, we might have room for a more substantial frame narrative of the Rangers defending the Shire.

So far, Hamilcar is scheduled to die while saving Estel in Episode 11. Then, the Rangers will defend the Shire. That's all I know so far.
 
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